Is 337 time considered "real" multi-PIC time or not?

[4000 PIC]

Hello all,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I have 4000 PIC, almost all of it single engine VFR time on floats, over 2000 of it turbine time in a Caravan.

My plan is to do my multi-IFR soon and start steering towards a corporate or airlines position.

I've spoken with some friends in the industry who say that at their company, multi-PIC is multi-PIC regardless of centerline or asymmetric thrust, and I have other friends at other companies who say centerline thrust multi-PIC doesn't count where they work.

A fire patrol job in a 337 seems like the most direct route to that elusive 500 multi-PIC, (which seems to be a minimum with many of the mid size multi-IFR turbine operators in the country), but I don't want to waste a summer in a 337 (living on peanuts) for 500 hours of multi-PIC time that isn't going to count in many operators eyes.

So for those of you in the know with operators running twin turbines in the IFR world, what's yours or your company's take on someone like myself? Is a 337 job a worthwhile fast track to 500 multi-PIC within 6 months, or should I just pursue a right seat twin turbine position and wait my year or so for the upgrade? Is 337 time considered "real" multi-PIC or not?

Thanks in advance for your responses,

4000 PIC

[Jim la Jungle]

Hi,

It has never been an issue for me. You log 337 time in "multi" anyway. In my opinion, employers that don't consider this as muti are just not interested in you or don't know anything about the ol' "suck and blow".

The big difference lies in the fact that you don't do IFR operations in the 337 compared to a Navajo, 310 etc. So if you had the choice, I'd go with the latter. Companies can hire you as a King Air f/o with the experience that you have and could easily move left seat in a short period of time. Check the Thunder Airlines job ad.

Hope this helps!

[flyinthebug]

Multi PIC is multi PIC...whether the engines are on the wings or on the nose and the ass end. I realize its a different rating for centreline thrust...but it still goes in your Multi PIC column. Almost all ops consider it "actual" multi time. I know *I* do.
My 2 cents. Fly safe.

[I'm just one]

quote from flyinthebug Multi PIC is multi PIC...whether the engines are on the wings or on the nose and the ass end. I realize its a different rating for centreline thrust...but it still goes in your Multi PIC column. Almost all ops consider it "actual" multi time. I know *I* do.
My 2 cents. Fly safe."

DITTO

[4000 PIC]

Jim La Jungle, thanks for your thoughts. I've already committed to one last summer in the Caravan, so I'm not looking immediately, I'm just planning for next winter.

Flyinthebug and I'm just one, thanks for your comments too. It's interesting to hear how other companies look at 337 time.

By the way, it was Conair that didn't recognize centerline thrust time as valid multi experience.

Another question for you all:

Do contrail requirements differentiate between centerline vs asymmetric thrust?

[KAG]

While the 337 is multi time it's VFR multi time, personally I'd be gunning for an IFR operator with movement. Your looking To move into the Airline world, some airlines care what you fly as well as how (IFR/VFR) and where you fly it.

By that I mean some opperators prefer high density IFR experience -Take WJ for example. So getting a balanced resume is key.
I'd be looking at companies like Perimeter, Bearskin, CalmAir, Pasco, CMA, GGN, anyone who flies anything over a 12,566 LBS or has bigger machines.
With your time you should be a very fast upgrade (provided your IFR skills are sharp, don't take offense but if your time is mostly floats, I'll wager your going to need some IFR seasoning), so IMHO taking a 337 job is a lateral if not a step backwards.

[4000 PIC]

Thanks for your input KAG.

There's no question my IFR skills will need some seasoning. It's been 8 years since I had a valid multi-IFR and ATPL's written, but I'm looking forward to stretching my brain and doing it all over again this Fall.

The other thing I have zero experience with is a two-crew environment.

As tempting as a quick 500 multi-PIC in a 337 is, I agree that a two-crew multi-IFR environment would be more beneficial in the long run for future corporate or airline opportunities.

I sure like the variety of aircraft Sunwest Home operates. I think they might be my first choice.

4000 PIC

[Diadem]

I sure like the variety of aircraft Sunwest Home operates. I think they might be my first choice.

Take into consideration that a lot of their operation is done with Contrails requirements, meaning you'd need 500 hours of multi-PIC to upgrade. They have Navajos which are used on bag runs, but I'm sure the waiting list for FOs to get on them and get their multi-PIC is rather long. If Sunwest is your planned destination, you'd probably be better getting the time on the 337 and then going right seat on a King Air or 1900 to get some multi-crew IFR experience so you're ready for an upgrade whenever a position opens up.

[mrsbitchy]

Multi PIC is Multi PIC, with government contract requirements, even if you are competent, you still need the mutli PIC. A summer at Hicks is the fastest way to get it. Then move to a FO position. If you are any good you will be upgraded quickly!

[4000 PIC]

Take into consideration that a lot of their operation is done with Contrails requirements, meaning you'd need 500 hours of multi-PIC to upgrade. They have Navajos which are used on bag runs, but I'm sure the waiting list for FOs to get on them and get their multi-PIC is rather long. You'd probably be better getting the time on the 337 and then going right seat on a King Air or 1900 to get some multi-crew IFR experience so you're ready for an upgrade whenever a position opens up.

Good point Diadem. When you take Contrail requirements into consideration, chock one up for a summer in a 337.

Multi PIC is Multi PIC, with government contract requirements, even if you are competent, you still need the mutli PIC. A summer at Hicks is the fastest way to get it. Then move to a FO position. If you are any good you will be upgraded quickly!

Mrsbitchy, sounds like you have some experience with Hicks. Two questions for you. Is 500 hours realistic for one summer? I see they want 1000 PIC, 100 multi to apply. Are they hard and fast with those numbers because of government requirements or is there some flexibility or a sliding scale for someone with my times?

Thanks again for everyone's input.

[mrsbitchy]

Its government, so as far as I know, there is no leeway. A lot of our guys we’ve hire from there. We don’t upgrade anyone who’s not ready; however we CAN’T upgrade anyone who do not have the hours. We are one of the few operators who can let the competent Captains build their multi PIC on our sched, however, we can only afford so many positions; otherwise we can’t accommodate the charter customer’s minimum requirements. Some customers require 5000 TT and 1000 MPIC. Some summers at Hick’s I know have been pretty poor hours, but I think the fire season will be good this year and you should be able to pick up at least 400 MPIC. Good Luck.

[trey kule]

Just a quick comment to add...Last I checked a 337 has two engines..It is multi time...
The confusion seems to be centered on the perception that because it is in line and thus has no critical engine from an asymetic thrust point, it is not good. If you look at the accident rates on type when they first came out, you will see how false this assumption is..

Compared to some of the fixed gear, simple system twins, the systems and complexity make it an excellent first twin for time building. It has been a long time since I flew one, but there are IIRC some quirks like not retracting the gear when you have a engine failure on departure (might have been an stc fix to this though.

[Beefitarian]

What would need to be done to STC that,different gear motors or something? Paging maintenance, AME to the thread please.

[Colonel Sanders]

IIRC there was a mod to remove doors from the weird
Cessna retractables. That might be what TK is referring
to.

[Beefitarian]

I requested a licensed dude but since I have checked you out and there's nothing that needs to be signed for I'll accept your opinion.

The gear doors I presume. Did they just take them off or was it some sort of upgrade?

[4000 PIC]

Just a quick comment to add...Last I checked a 337 has two engines..It is multi time...

I may be a 4000 hour float pilot Trey Kule, but I'm not totally brain dead. Ha ha.

In hindsight, I should have titled this thread, 'Is 337 time considered "valid" multi-PIC time at your company?'

Like I mentioned before, Conair doesn't recognize centerline thrust as valid, or useful, multi experience, and so I was curious if that was the case anywhere else around the country. Sounds like that is not the case, and most everyone else, including Contrails, calls a multi a multi.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

[Jastapilot]

"back in the day" I had come across a choice of flying the 337 flying fire patrol, or the Beaver on floats doing fishing charters. After much humming and hawing and figuring the best course of action I chose the Beaver, and haven't regretted the decision since... my next job off the Beaver was captain on a Chieftain...
Bottom line, it's not about how many engines, but the type of work, and what your next employer thinks about your time. Boring holes in the sky with the 337? Depends on the type of operation...

[trey kule]

First of all, I meant no offense by the last time I checked comment...And it was not a shot at your title. I just meant the plane has two engines.It is a multi engined airplanes.
I do see how you might have read that into it however..so....Bazinga!
The comment about the type of flying jap made, is, imho, very valid...Take a beaver pilot over a 337 pilot every time Unfortunately insurance, contrail, customers , etc., want multi time, so they influence many compay decisions.
Just as an aside, maybe forget about your career path for a moment, and ask yourself what type of flying do you want to do this summer? To many of todays pilots are so busy working on their careers, they miss the journey.

[square]

+1 to getting a real IFR job. It will probably take you at least a year to get comfortable enough with what you're doing to even want to go captain. And not everyone has contrail or government MPIC requirements for their Captains. In fact most don't. So just go to one of those companies and forget the 337, I doubt you'll learn anything useful considering you already have lots of experience in that area. And you'll still be logging multi time which is very useful for jobs that ask for something like 2000 multi / 1000 mpic / 500 on type like Contrails does.

[I WAS Birddog]

You won't be applying the "dead foot dead engine" rant on an engine failure on climb out. But if you don't exersize the same engine out procedures in a 337 as you would in a conventional twin it's "dead pilot".
You won't end up in the ditch right next to the runway but you'll end up in the creek at the end of the runway.

Anyone doubting 337 is "real" multi time...go try an engine out on a hot summer day on take off.

AND ONE MORE THING!!!!
Join my cult MOFO's iwasbirddog@twitter

[rapid602]

Reading everyons comments on this subject is like looking at a 12 sided square. All of you have interesting points. If you are an up and coming pilot and looking for a job there is nothing wrong with flying for the summer, doesn't matter what it is.

If you have less than 1,000 hours and are looking to get paid to fly, then throw you hat in the ring, beats the hell out of punching out car parts in a factory like I did last summer wishing I was flying. Its better looking at the trees go by then the next part on the line or a pile of boxes in a hot warehouse. Jobs like that are not great for your flying career.

Its a great opportunity for someone who needs to start somewhere.

My 2 cents ...

[4000 PIC]

Hello all,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I have 4000 PIC, almost all of it single engine VFR time on floats, over 2000 of it turbine time in a Caravan.

My plan is to do my multi-IFR soon and start steering towards a corporate or airlines position.

Is a 337 job a worthwhile fast track to 500 multi-PIC within 6 months, or should I just pursue a right seat twin turbine position and wait my year or so for the upgrade? Is 337 time considered "valid" multi-PIC or not?

Thanks in advance for your responses,

4000 PIC

I started this thread so I suppose it's fitting that I finish it.

The purpose of starting this thread was because Conair told me 337 time wasn't "valid" multi time in their eyes, and I was curious if this was the case across the board.

I wasn't trying to start a centreline/asymmetric thrust debate.

To answer my own question, or questions, Conair seems to be the exception, and almost everybody else recognizes 337 experience as valid multi time.

For anyone else with my sort of times looking to make the leap to the multi-IFR world, a summer in a 337 would be beneficial if you were trying to get on with a company that was restricted by Contrails or government restrictions, like say Sunwest or North Cariboo. If you were looking at less restrictive companies that don't have those added restrictions to move you from right to left seat, then you might as well just go right seat and get comfortable in the 2-crew IFR environment, because when it comes time to upgrade, you can, because you won't need the 500 multi-PIC to meet specific contract restrictions.

For me, as much as I like Sunwest Home's fleet, a company like Georgian or Pasco probably makes more sense.

Thanks everyone for helping me sort out my thought process.

Safe travels to all.

4000 PIC.

[Doc]

Multi PIC is multi PIC...whether the engines are on the wings or on the nose and the ass end. I realize its a different rating for centreline thrust...but it still goes in your Multi PIC column. Almost all ops consider it "actual" multi time. I know *I* do.
My 2 cents. Fly safe.

BINGO
A "real" twin is only a "real" twin when one's caged.