Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

[sanjet]

Even I didn't think of this. Genius move by CR on his part to make it look like ACPA will go on strike on the same time as the machinists. Public won't know squat difference. I hope ACPA can find a way around this.

[yycflyguy]

The Government should have stayed out of this in the first place, now the're involved and they will pay the price politically. I think right now AC would prefer if the govn't stay out of this so that they can file for bankruptcy and go through the badly needed reorganization. If they impose another arbitration it will not improve the dire situation AC is in, they will still be loosing money. This cannot go on like this forever, at some point the company has to realize that a real change is needed and I think that this moment has arrived. All of their competitors have much lower costs, the only way to go forward means reorganization, reworking of the pensions issue, lower wages, getting rid of some routes, firing some employees, etc.

Welcome to AvCanada. Quite the inflammatory first post. Congratulations on stirring the pot.

Now you need to get educated.

Pilot wages account for approximately 4% of CASM (look it up).
Pilots took wage cuts of between 20-25% during CCAA meanwhile CEO compensation has gone up 77% in 2010 and 280% last year. Eight executives made collectively $28,257,353.00 in 2010
Pilots could fly for free and this place would still lose money.
The lower costs are due to overcompensation of unskilled positions and a bloated middle management structure at AC.
What routes would you suggest are eliminated when the load factors are around 86%?
The pension issue wasn't an issue for the executives, they have their DB plan. Where was the company during the funding holiday?

[Rockie]

The public knows the difference between a strike and a lockout. Air Canada has all but abandoned any pretense of being the victim and is betting it all on the conservatives beating down labour yet again.

[bearinmind]

CR is pissed. His ace in the hole, Ms Ratt didnt back him up and he is responding by confirming a strike. This is not a retaliation to the pilots, just he didnt get his way and he dosent want to pay the pilots while the mechanics are on strike. This probably dosent have much to do with us. It does, however, take away the safety net. Its what this negotiation has wanted all along, the power to determine the long term life of the company. The threat of the company folding is real and both groups now know it and will negotiate accordingly, we can now get the best deal available. It might be better or might be worse, but will be the best available.

Just for fun, i did a little crunching, and AC is worth on paper 264 million
WJA (Westjet) is worth about 7 times as much with a value 1.8 billion
CHR (jazz) is worth 1.5 times as much at 417 million
All just paper numbers but its what the financing companies are looking at.

I think the board of directors now want to fold the company and start over, there is no money in continuing with the same debt and structure. They had to make offers to the employee group to prevent being sued by the shareholders. I predict we will be in restructuring in 3 weeks.

[Mig29]

Even I didn't think of this. Genius move by CR on his part to make it look like ACPA will go on strike on the same time as the machinists. Public won't know squat difference. I hope ACPA can find a way around this.

I didn't see this coming at all!! "The airline had given its pilots a deadline of noon Eastern Time on Thursday to accept its "final offer" for a new collective agreement." That deadline is already expired....this is going to be one really, really messy weekend and as well March break week!!

[Rockie]

CBC reporting Air Canada is locking out its pilots as of 12:01 Monday morning.

Now it gets interesting.

[TopperHarley]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2 ... trike.html

After giving its pilots an ultimatum to accept their final offer for a new labour contract, Air Canada will lock out its pilots effective midnight Eastern Time, on Monday morning.

The airline had given its pilots a deadline of noon Eastern Time on Thursday to accept its "final offer" for a new collective agreement. The latest developments come 24 days into a federally appointed mediation process, which was supposed to last for 180 days.

The Air Canada Pilots Association says the offer was nearly identical to one already rejected by the pilots at the end of January, and says the airline has threatened to "pursue any and all rights afforded to it by law" should the pilots turn it down.

CBC News has learned that the carrier will soon serve the mandatory 72-hours notice to lock out its employees. That timeframe would cause a labour disruption at the same time as a second acrimonious contract discussion is set to expire — with the airline's 8,600 mechanics, baggage handlers, cargo agents, aircraft cleaners and electricians, who have also served notice they intend to strike at midnight, first thing early Monday, if they can't iron out a new contract.

The two-pronged labour strife is sure to cause havoc during the key March Break travel season.

[ChallengerDan]

Pilot wages account for approximately 4% of CASM (look it up).
Pilots took wage cuts of between 20-25% during CCAA meanwhile CEO compensation has gone up 77% in 2010 and 280% last year. Eight executives made collectively $28,257,353.00 in 2010
Pilots could fly for free and this place would still lose money.
The lower costs are due to overcompensation of unskilled positions and a bloated middle management structure at AC.
What routes would you suggest are eliminated when the load factors are around 86%?
The pension issue wasn't an issue for the executives, they have their DB plan. Where was the company during the funding holiday?

First of all, don't go and believe I am against you on the issue. I think you are just looking at it with the wrong angle...

1- Bring down the costs and your 4% will shoot up;
2- The executive pay, although is a complete non-sense, (especially while they havn't sacrifice sweet f$&%-all in the last 10 years while systematically asking from every employee group, not only the pilots,) is in-line with current industry practice.
3- The unskilled labour you are talking about are most of the time in non-standard environment and on non-standard shifts.
We should agree here that minimum wage would not exactly be fair for a baggage handler working outside at -20C on a windy Saturday night at 2300 loading the pit of an E175.
4- The pension issue is not specific to AC; it is a problem of most major corporation in Canada: it seems that unfortunately the corporations are going to have to put up the money now to compensate all the years where markets conditions actually meant they didn't have to put a single dollar in the fund. And that also means most corporation are trying to get out of DB plans and switch to DC plans. AC seems to be going at it the wrong way though.


1-What AC needs to do is augment productivity!!! Across all levels (Pilots, Mechanics, MANAGEMENT, Services, each and every part of this operation);
2-Cooperate with the unions on making it work: right now they are using the 'shove-it up their @#$' type of approach. When they can't make it themselves, they rely on The Torries to ensure that they can 'shove-it up your @#$';
3-If CR feels that he needs to cut anything from any employee group, make sure that it is reflected in the Senior and junior management and executives compensation packages as to not create a "us and them" relationship; make executive pay a ratio of a top scale unionized employee (or in AC case, a formula representing every employee group) so that if somebody gives within the company, they give too;

CR seems to be playing hard ball, not negotiating in good faith, with every employee group, not only ACPA. They let the shadow of bankruptcy go on and on in order to intimidate the workers (accept or we will force you anyways). They let the employee compensation issues make it to the media where the travelling public gets the impression that AC employees, from all groups, are overpaid, under-worked and always ask for more.

Unless trust is regained between senior management and Union leaders, the situation will not improve. Now... how do we go about fixing that....

Also... how should we go about having the freaking government not intervene even though labour laws are followed...

[mbav8r]

"When they force my FO to sit in economy while dead-heading with Jazz pilots sitting in first class– I will make them pay"
Wow, just Wow, your WAWCONs are about to get decimated and this is one of your issues.
To the author of the Air Canada version of Army of One and all those AC pilots who feel the same, with all of your efforts to make Jazz Pilots second class, you are systmatically creating an Army of 1500 who will fight against you and endeavor to make you pay! I am one of 1500 who wish you the contract you deserve!!!!
When Chorus buys AC, I will welcome you with open arms, my brother. TO THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST!

[CanadianEh]

"When they force my FO to sit in economy while dead-heading with Jazz pilots sitting in first class– I will make them pay"
Wow, just Wow, your WAWCONs are about to get decimated and this is one of your issues.
To the author of the Air Canada version of Army of One and all those AC pilots who feel the same, with all of your efforts to make Jazz Pilots second class, you are systmatically creating an Army of 1500 who will fight against you and endeavor to make you pay! I am one of 1500 who wish you the contract you deserve!!!!
When Chorus buys AC, I will welcome you with open arms, my brother. TO THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST!

mbav8r,

There are two ways you can look at it.
1) (This is probably the way you saw it) The Jazz skipper should be in the back instead of the AC FO
2) The AC FO should join the Jazz skipper and himself in First Class.

I don't think this was meant to show any disrespect to Jazz pilots, but more towards management for creating these inequalities.

[Foxe]

I don't understand this AC F/O thing vs Jazz Capt. If the AC F/O is DEADHEADING, which means he's POS ... he's going ahead in the Employee list of an AC flight vs a POS Jazz Capt deadheading as well... No brainer...If the AC F/O is commuting...that's a different story..( Jazz employees not responsible for that.)

[mbav8r]

The seniority system created the inequalities of who sits up front vs who sits in back for deadheading. if you look at what I quoted verbatim, you can clearly see the author(plagiarizer) does not differentiate between Jazz Captain or Jazz FO, there is no other way to take it.
Contractually for deadheading if there is an open seat up front then WE, Jazz and AC pilots are seated there in order of seniority. So as insulting as this is for an AC FO to be seated in the back whilst a lowly Jazz Pilot is upfront, it's too bad, for now it's in the contract.
As I said, when Chorus buys AC, you can look forward to many more changes to your lifestyle, guess I'll have to get some stickers made up. "Original Jazz Pilot" has a nice ring to it.

[yycflyguy]

[RudderWhat]

mbav8r - take it easy. AC pilot's beef is not with you, it's with the system. Relax.

[morefun]

"As I said, when Chorus buys AC, you can look forward to many more changes to your lifestyle, guess I'll have to get some stickers made up. "Original Jazz Pilot" has a nice ring to it"

Awesome maybe then we can fly the 777's at Dash 8 rates...

[Rockie]

This appears headed to forced binding arbitration that the proposed law specifically says cannot be challenged in a court of law. So much for freedom in Canada. Hopefully people realize what the Conservatives have done to this country and toss them out with the trash next election (provided the Conservatives permit an election by then).

The company is losing it as well if they think forcing the pilots back to work under a forced contract will improve the current state of affairs. Their only option is to negotiate.

[teacher]

"As I said, when Chorus buys AC, you can look forward to many more changes to your lifestyle, guess I'll have to get some stickers made up. "Original Jazz Pilot" has a nice ring to it"

Awesome maybe then we can fly the 777's at Dash 8 rates...

Or maybe at blended status rates that reward years of service and not how little someone can accomplish in 17 hours of flying.

[morefun]

"As I said, when Chorus buys AC, you can look forward to many more changes to your lifestyle, guess I'll have to get some stickers made up. "Original Jazz Pilot" has a nice ring to it"

Awesome maybe then we can fly the 777's at Dash 8 rates...

Or maybe at blended status rates that reward years of service and not how little someone can accomplish in 17 hours of flying.

Staying awake for 17 hours is a major accomplishment

[teacher]

True, i don't doubt that but the comment about dash wages on 777s proves once again that we are (not just ACPA) stuck in an archaic mentality that prevents our industry from moving forward to the benefit of all of us.

As for ACPA, the only way that this dispute will ever move forward is if you (ACPA) start looking outside the box. MORE MORE MORE because upper management makes more will not get you that raise you're gunning for. I know pilot wages aren't the be all end all of company expenses but it's a small part and AC brass expecet you to do your part (even if they're not willing to do it themselves). Look outside the box and outside your own airline for your solutions. These solutions work at WJ and Jazz.

Defined benefit plan for one is not sustainable unless you're paid by the taxpayer. Other than former crown corporations they don't exist in the private sector. I'm one to talk for having one at Jazz but I know it won't last until retirement for me and I'm prepared for that. I'd walk away from it tomorrow if I could as I KNOW it's a financial burden on the company to supprt me AFTER I retire and as someone who plans on making it a career at Jazz I want the company to be around.

Your pay scales/schemes are unbelievably complex and well, stupid. Simplify the payscales to prevent movement between types. Moving 300 passengers is moving 300 passengers regardless of what type of airplane you're flying. Get over it. The fact that the shinny new Q400 and some CRJ positions are going new hire at Jazz is proof that status pay works in everyone's interest and if it's in the company's interest they'll go for it and trade something else in return. What would be the wage if all types were averaged out and the same total amount was spent on pilot wages?

Take a look at Westjet's scheduling system. You wonder why they make more than you on similar equipement? They are more productive and MUCH easier to schedule. Now I don't work for WJ but from what I hear this is the way it is. Not having a preferential bidding system save's the company money which if negotiated properly could MAKE you more money.

Just my opinion. Not meaned as flaming. I know we're gonna have a tough time in 2015 and 2020 when it's our turn again but I plan to practice EXACTLY what I preach.

[yycflyguy]

Defined benefit plan for one is not sustainable unless you're paid by the taxpayer. Other than former crown corporations they don't exist in the private sector. I'm one to talk for having one at Jazz but I know it won't last until retirement for me and I'm prepared for that. I'd walk away from it tomorrow if I could as I KNOW it's a financial burden on the company to supprt me AFTER I retire and as someone who plans on making it a career at Jazz I want the company to be around.

Funny. Didn't Jazz just secure their DB plans?

All the other unions secured their DBs for existing members and threw new hires under the proverbial bus. The executive management body also secured their DBs. If interest rates and the market valuation increased 2%, the DB deficit would be wiped out. It is sustainable.

[accumulous]

Defined benefit plan for one is not sustainable unless you're paid by the taxpayer. Other than former crown corporations they don't exist in the private sector. I'm one to talk for having one at Jazz but I know it won't last until retirement for me and I'm prepared for that. I'd walk away from it tomorrow if I could as I KNOW it's a financial burden on the company to supprt me AFTER I retire and as someone who plans on making it a career at Jazz I want the company to be around.

Funny. Didn't Jazz just secure their DB plans?

All the other unions secured their DBs for existing members and threw new hires under the proverbial bus. The executive management body also secured their DBs. If interest rates and the market valuation increased 2%, the DB deficit would be wiped out. It is sustainable.

Mandatory Retirement has ended. There is no mention anywhere in the Pension WAWCON of the effect of the overwhelming majority of pilots who cannot reach the pension cap at age 60, somewhere between 2500 and 2900, electing to stay and continuing to contribute to their pension plan, and the highly obvious positive effect that will have on any pension shortfalls.

It would be an absolute no-brainer to have the pension administrators produce pension fund benefit analysis data flowing forward from the legislated end of mandatory retirement. In fact, any compromises to the current plan and the future of the plan would be ludicrous without examining those numbers.

In addition to that, when the dust settles and if something on the order of 200 complainants wind up injecting their pension withdrawals back into the plan and re-commencing contributions, what is the additional positive effect on the plan shortfall, in real numbers.

Any pension plan concessions offered up in advance of any of these events unfolding would be a seriously irresponsible move, and the obvious windfall positions should be taken into account before the baby goes spilling out onto the floor with the bathwater, yet again.

[teacher]

I'm not saying go into it blindly but it has to be looked at by all groups. Maybe some kind of, oh I don't know combination DB/DC plan. Or perhaps something like Westjet or a generous RRSP matching program. I'm no expert but it's one of many things that need to be looked at. Holding onto old perks and hurting the company in the long run will do more harm than good IMHO to new hires as these problems will only continue 5-10-20 years from now.

Funny. Didn't Jazz just secure their DB plans?

Yes we did, dumb move in my opinion. We just defered getting paid to a future date. Hopefully there'll be a Jazz when I retire. I expect similar problems at Chorus Aviation in 2015 and especially in 2020. Do I think the pension will survive in it's current form? Nope. If Jazz becomes an independant carrier do I think Chorus will be able to pay industry leading wages and a DB plan for all members? Nope. Just look at what our competition will be, Sky Regional, Westjet and Porter. Do these companies pay our wages and have our benefits? Nope. So that puts us at a cost disadvantage, it's simple accounting.

Look around, your competition and future competition will not have these expenses. That automatically puts YOU at a disadvantage cost wise. Making the company cover your pension losses in a downturn while they're also losing money seems crazy in this day and age. Made sense when they were set up decades ago but not anymore IMHO.

Think like a business man and not a union member. Put pressure on your management to make pension reform company wide. If you want AC and your pension to be around in 20 years when you retire changes to your entire way of operating have to be made now. Holding onto old archaic ideas and ways of doing business will only drag you down as new companies arrive that are more flexable and have a lower cost. I'm not saying it's only the pilots that have this to bare but all groups at AC including management. I'm expecting the SAME THING in our next contract negotiations so I'm not fooling myself. I do wish you all the best but you gotta look at reality. As it is it looks like you folks might have a contract rammed down your throats like it or not. If the company wants pension reform, get something else out of them. If they want pay restructuring, get something else out of them. But having a private company support you into retirement in this day and age I'm sorry to say but it's LONG GONE.

[TKTguy]

"When they force my FO to sit in economy while dead-heading with Jazz pilots sitting in first class– I will make them pay"

Not to worry. All your efforts have paid off. We (Jazz) now have a lower priority when travelling on business. Oh and even better our new hires won't have a J entitlement at all. I wonder what you had to give up for that little victory.