Air Canada pilots call in sick, fatigued, and blind.

[Colonel Sanders]

I've even had a passenger stranded one year

Good Lord man - the least you could do for him was change his mailing address!

[azimuthaviation]

Do all of the labels in your house say Made In Canada?

They used to.

You remember an era before Sony, RCA, Nintendo, Lexus, Harley Davidson, Gucci, Prada, Levis, Zippo, Apple, IBM, Snap-On, Citizen, Omega, Magnavox, Samsung, General Electric, Smith & Wesson, and Neslte? Where was your teepee?

[126.7_STFU]

You know, my original long winded post was modified immediately because I typed "I agree with with the Governments decision". Sometimes, it is amazing what flows via anonymity. I immediately realized something, that if indeed I was having this conversation directly with Rockie, I would most likely leave in full support of his endeavours because in all fairness, I don't think Air Canada pilots show up every morning and contemplate how to make the passengers lives a living hell. I think we can all agree that at every airline, EVEN WESTJET.... there will be some which are to say it at its mildest, an absolute nightmare. I may disagree with some of his points, but I don't think I would dismiss him and wish ill fate. As much as I am guilty of being in full contempt of this airline often subjectively, I think at days end this is not a specific aviation related problem. This has already been mentioned of course. But lets seriously take a few steps back from being the passenger for one second, (this is tough for me) , would you be extremely frustrated being a pilot at Air Canada? Absolutely, I would. I also find it remotely sinister to advise someone to leave after devoting so much time and dedication to a company (leave the Air Canada out of this for just one more second). Lets be reasonable. A suggestion which must be implemented from the top down. However, there should also be some talk about how Air Canada can regain their customer loyalty and satisfaction from within ; right now is a bloody good time to reach out to the customers and renew a sense of appreciation. There should be a push for accountability up at the top first. It is just pure nonsense to suggest the customers are in any way shape or form responsible for the unfortunate events taking place.

Rockie, get some of your buddies on here. Talk to people, and don't let the media tell us what's going on. What starts as black often come out as white with these people.

[confuzed]

I've even had a passenger stranded one year

Good Lord man - the least you could do for him was change his mailing address!

My god....REALLY? Out of all that you have to read it in that context? Sigh....sorry, I will clarify just for you. I believe it was in 2002....there, all better now? Lol .

[MrWings]

My whole point is this really. At some point the travelling public have to realize that what you gain with great ticket prices may not equate to good service...

Then why doesn't Air Canada advertise that? "We'll sell you a cheap ticket but don't expect much".

Are you seriously condoning poor service? This thinking does provide some insight into the AC philosophy.

The problem with your argument is that all of your passengers are on on the same bloody airplane. You come in late to teach the $99 bargain hunter a lesson and the $1000 business traveller is pissed off even more because he paid 10x as much.

People who say that it's a management problem that wages are low clearly doesn't understand what's going on. If money in isn't able to meet money out then something obviously has to give....obviously it's not going to be (you should hope!) safety, so it will be services offered, wages, etc...
Comparing companies like AC, Delta, etc to Westjet and Southwest is like comparing apples to oranges as they're set up entirely different and have different cost structures that may not be able to be changed as they are such a mature, established company. All they can do is match the service level as best they can or offer something better (eg AC has a better inflight entertainment system than WJ).

Now you've hinted at inefficiencies compounded over the years that admittedly can't be changed.

My goodness, AC is in REAL trouble.

[confuzed]

My whole point is this really. At some point the travelling public have to realize that what you gain with great ticket prices may not equate to good service...

Then why doesn't Air Canada advertise that? "We'll sell you a cheap ticket but don't expect much".

Are you seriously condoning poor service? This thinking does provide some insight into the AC philosophy.

The problem with your argument is that all of your passengers are on on the same bloody airplane. You come in late to teach the $99 bargain hunter a lesson and the $1000 business traveller is pissed off even more because he paid 10x as much.

People who say that it's a management problem that wages are low clearly doesn't understand what's going on. If money in isn't able to meet money out then something obviously has to give....obviously it's not going to be (you should hope!) safety, so it will be services offered, wages, etc...
Comparing companies like AC, Delta, etc to Westjet and Southwest is like comparing apples to oranges as they're set up entirely different and have different cost structures that may not be able to be changed as they are such a mature, established company. All they can do is match the service level as best they can or offer something better (eg AC has a better inflight entertainment system than WJ).

Now you've hinted at inefficiencies compounded over the years that admittedly can't be changed.

My goodness, AC is in REAL trouble.

No, I'm not condoning poor customer service. I'm just saying like everything else you get what you pay for. Plain and simple....but can I ask you this then in return? Do you expect VIP service for being frugal and cheaping out on a ticket? Why do you think you should be treated the same as that person who spent 10x as much? They're paying for a service, so they should get it. Why should they have to advertise this? It's common friggin sense!

I'm not implying anything, I'm saying that comparing how two different companies of various ages is like comparing apples to oranges. You can't compare them really.

[MrWings]

I don't think most right-minded people expect first-class service at rock bottom prices.

Do some? Probably. Do they complain? Probably. Are they in the minority? Yes.

What I fail to see is how these whinners are affecting your wage, pension and job security. They are not the problem here.

If they are the problem, increase fares to get rid of them. That is a management decision.

You get rid of passengers then you get rid of planes. Less pilots. Is that what the ACPA is pushing?

[confuzed]

I don't think most right-minded people expect first-class service at rock bottom prices.

Do some? Probably. Do they complain? Probably. Are they in the minority? Yes.

What I fail to see is how these whinners are affecting your wage, pension and job security. They are not the problem here.

If they are the problem, increase fares to get rid of them. That is a management decision.

You get rid of passengers then you get rid of planes. Less pilots. Is that what the ACPA is pushing?

It would surprise you to see how many people want everything for nothing. It's not the bad people I'm saying is causing low wages and what not. What I find incredible is the constant drive for lower and lower ticket prices. How low do you want them to go? $1? $10? That should get you coast to coast no problem....never mind the company can't afford to pay the bills and will go bankrupt because they can't bring in enough money because of these low prices; that's ok another company will come along.

[Rockie]

Rockie, get some of your buddies on here. Talk to people, and don't let the media tell us what's going on. What starts as black often come out as white with these people.

This is an aviation forum. If there is a choir anywhere that doesn't need preaching to on this issue one would think it should be here.

Our union spokesmen have been in the news trying to get the message out, in fact the President was just on Lang and O'Leary where he may have been the first person in history to leave O'Leary with nothing to say. And they didn't even touch on the major issue of eliminating our scope clause and pension. So they are doing their job.

You can see it here:

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/Business ... 2213074024

[Beefitarian]

Confused I hope you're being sincere. The world could use every decent person it can get. Further I hope you can find a company that can actually use those qualities. They are well hidden at present day Air Canada.

The employees need to take the shit power through it and somehow convert it to sunshine and lollypops for the customers because they risk them riding with someone else one day and finding out how bad it is.

If you don't want to work that out for AirCanada management, quit and make someother company profitable then negotiate with them for decent treatment. You may as well go now before they finally collapse and there's thousands of bitter employees applying and competing for work with the other companies.

Aside from the wholly impractical aspects of leaving to go to another company (what other company?), I'm not a quitter and would prefer to finish out my career right here at Air Canada. So I choose to fix it.

Tell me how I can compel Air Canada to not farm my job out to the lowest bidder thus eliminating my job and pension, and doing that without causing them, and unavoidably our passengers, some inconvenience? Still waiting for that great idea from one of you guys.

If I come up with a great idea I'll try to post it even if it's the complete waste of time I fear it will be.

I don't think you can compel Air Canada to not farm out your job the split second they can. I hope you can keep it until you find a better deal. I fear you won't be able to do that either.

If I were an Air Canada customer I hope you wouldn't take out any frustrations about these unfourtunate issues on me.

[flyincanuck]

he may have been the first person in history to leave O'Leary with nothing to say.

Outstanding.

[Beefitarian]

Do all of the labels in your house say Made In Canada?

They used to.

You remember an era before Sony, RCA, Nintendo, Lexus, Harley Davidson, Gucci, Prada, Levis, Zippo, Apple, IBM, Snap-On, Citizen, Omega, Magnavox, Samsung, General Electric, Smith & Wesson, and Neslte?

A bunch of that list is made in China too now.

No surprise there. As you should have noticed when we met at the bath house I'm not as fashionista as you. Yes the Levi's made your ass look fat.

It does not comfort me any that Japan doesn't make VCRs that last me 20 years anymore. That I can't buy one from a Lebonese guy with an electronics store in my neighborhood. Or the country that is our neighbor is going to need to have some plague/appocolypse/civil war II/revolution to purge the excess workers that are not needed by walmart.

Where was your teepee?

What time of year?

[Masters Off]

Unfortunately, I feel bad for quite a few people:

The working men/women; in this case the pilots. With the long list of grievences I don't have to restate.

The poor passengers; they pay for service and yes may be inconvienced. The customer should always come paramount, as they're bread and butter for a company. They're Air Canada and the pilots reason for existance. Can they find a way around it? Yes. Still, upsetting.

Now, the management and the union are both in very tough spots that Im sure a quite a few of you will recognize. The point where both are trying to accomplish what's best in their interest, strugle to find what middle ground they can, then explain that...well...they tried...and that's the best they can do. Thank god they're not politicians making promises.

I hope for some resolution to both sides issues, however many contradict eachother. We all want great service, low ticket prices, AC wants lower operating costs and the workers always want better conditions, wages, etc.

However even in the moment of strike, everyone looses: AC, workers, passengers/cargo, 3rd party companies, even the government looses potential tax revenue. Therefore, I ask that things be resolved quickly, and hopefully with the most possible compromise for all involved.

[flying4dollars]

Is it one or two pilots or 1000 that called in sic?

Was the rate of sick calls any higher than other st. patty's days? weekend? march break?

Come on, don't fall into the media trap/propoganda.

Agreed. Maybe a ploy by AC Management to discredit the Pilot Union. This is going to be a nasty war.

[ZX14 Rider]

When it comes to customers there is the human nature aspect. The more you get he more you want. In the past 10-20 years tickets have just got cheaper. So what does the customer expect? Them to get cheaper. You don' t decide to buy a car and walk in to the dealer expecting to see the same, or cheaper, price tag than the exact same last years model do you? That just vehicles. Most eveything has got more expensive over the years so we expect them to just rise in price...........EXCEPT AIRLINE TICKETS.
I find it funny to hear some complain because they just spent 300 crossing the bloody country BUT won't think twice about paying a cabbie 40-50 bucks to drive them 20km downtown. Something wrong here?

[Rockie]

However even in the moment of strike, everyone looses: AC, workers, passengers/cargo, 3rd party companies, even the government looses potential tax revenue. Therefore, I ask that things be resolved quickly, and hopefully with the most possible compromise for all involved.

For things to be resolved in the best possible compromise there has to be negotiations, and there haven't been any at Air Canada because the government has destroyed that process in favour of the corporation who knows they no longer have to negotiate anything.

The head of the Canadian Labour Congress was on TV recently saying that only about 2% of labour negotiations actually end up with industrial action. That's because as strike deadlines loom both parties get much more serious and work together to reach a compromise that is acceptable to both sides. It's a process that works 98% of the time with no disruption at all to the workers, corporation and the customer.

It works when the government keeps their ideological, incompetent noses out of it.

[FenderManDan]

This topic went on different path, so I'll chime in with some personal opinion as the "member" of the traveling public. To preface this, I am not affiliated with AC nor any airline.

When using an airline to travel, I expect:
- to get treated with respect no matter how much I payed for a ticket.
- to get safely to my destination no matter how much I payed for a ticket.
- to get my wife's luggage to the destination (trust me you don't want to loose her luggage )

All these comments about $59 ticket should get you what you pay is BS if you are thinking about your customer service.

When I am presented with the online pay now screen my options are based on lower pitch seats (or whatever you call the sardines seating arrangement), fixed non refundable ticket schedule and in flight meal/entertainment options.

If I experience a shit service in some constant manner, I will not go buy your product for $59 or $5999. Don't blame me as a customer for paying the $59 fare. Your business model provided this price I i'll take it with the same expectation that I mentioned above. Even though everything above is written in the first person, I am giving you an opinion of people in my surroundings.

As a person interested in aviation, I feel for you guys. At the same time as a customer don't really care about the internal issues. You can call that ignorant, but hey I have a bunch of problems at my line work too that has to be addressed by my colleagues and myself.

We should all know that it's not a Bernouli or Newton that affects the lift of the wing it's a mighty $$$$. Perhaps you can start with that idea to get ingrained in the traveling public to solve the issue on your side of the equation. As far as solving issues with your management good luck. There are lot of spineless F%^S in the unions and in the management that unfortunately only hit the weakest in the process.

Rant done

[Beefitarian]

Thanks Dan, if I had a command of the english (or really any) language I would have wrote something like that.

gold-star-2-11-150x150.jpg (3.8 KiB) Viewed 2154 times

If the price is too low perhaps they should set a higher start point for negotiating. Also it's unfourtunate that the new rules regarding cockpit security is keeping the customer service speciallists at Air Canada behind a door.

[BTyyj]

Apparently some people within the government support the workers, which is good to see:

"We can't continue to have government interfering in these ways and breaking the backs of unions. This is about workers' rights, and I totally support this. If I have to wait in this airport for 10 hours for my luggage, so be it."

Also a good comment:

"It's very sad to see the decline," he said. "When I was a kid, they'd give you little plastic airplanes and lifesavers and all kinds of goodies just for the excitement of flying. Now it's just a very sad business, and frustrating for everyone."

"Everyone just wants cheap, cheap, cheap. They don't realize the investment in buildings, the investment in people, the investment in airplanes, maintaining the airplanes — it's expensive," he said. "The only place they can get a nickel or a dime is out of the workers' pockets."

[Cough Syrup]

Part of the problem is there are too many taxes and fees attached to the ticket...so the airline only gets a portion of the ticket price as revenue which is probably already too low to start with.

[Colonel Sanders]

http://business.financialpost.com/2012/ ... to-flyers/

Air Canada’s customers are becoming collateral damage in a labour standoff between the country’s largest carrier and its biggest unions.

Even after the federal government rushed to Air Canada’s aid with a back-to-work bill, passengers still faced flight cancellations as ground-crew employees staged wildcat strikes on March 23.

The disruptions showed how the bargaining struggle over new union contracts is spilling into operations. Standard & Poor’s Ratings Service said in a statement following the pre-weekend walkout that Air Canada’s debt ratings may be cut and raised the prospect that the labour disputes might erode bookings in the busy summer travel season.

“The long-term viability of the company is in question,” said George Smith, a director of employee relations at the airline from 1982 to 1992 who now teaches labour relations at Queen’s University in Kingston, Ontario. “You’re getting to a tipping point where people will be so uncertain about what they can expect that they may seek alternative means of travel.”

Labour’s demands for improved contracts are colliding with a jump in jet-fuel prices of more than 50% in the past two years. While most North American carriers have managed to return to profit as fuel prices rebound, Air Canada has posted annual losses starting in 2008.

“The problem for the unions is that they can’t roll back the clock,” said Moore, the McGill professor. “With fuel prices where they are now the airline industry is in tough shape, and there’s not a lot of pie to share.”

[IFRATC]

Ahhhh I find it quite amusing reading these posts at how HYPOCRITICAL some of you pilots are when the shoe is on the other foot. When you guys were "the customer" during ATC labour disputes, you all cried job action and illegal strike rhetoric. Now that AC pilots are proceeding with what some speculate as job action and illegal work action you support their position and at the same time display zero sympathy for "the customer". Interesting thread...Maybe some of you will display the same passionate viewpoint and support for us again as collective bargaining is knocking on our door once again in a year. I wait for the hypocracy with bated breath!!

I 100% fully support what the AC pilots union is fighting for. Any gains by union organizations in this industry should always be encouraged. The benefits always have a trickle down effect. Aviation industry companies in this country will always have the best interests of the bottom line first before yours....

IFRATC

[x-wind]

Does the pilots pay really make up 4% or so of the total revenue of the airline?

[short bus]

maybe not 4% of revenue, but perhaps operating costs?

[stringbender]

baggage handlers making more than university proffessors and FAs making more than pilots does not help the operating cost either.