Sunwing Adds a New Twist on Foreign Pilots

[rotorjay]

AHH, that old Pearl of an argument! Isn' t it wonderful you experienced this country that would now be almost alien free because of their cadet program! So many of them out there! I say what?
I think DIM made a very good point as I have worked throughout SE Asia and my goodness did I ever reap from the lack of qualified pilots! Retired now and not feeling of guilt! Sorry!! Buck up old trout!

[HavaJava]

Huh? You should avoid drinking and posting...your post makes zero sense

[rotorjay]

Obviously my friend it is apparent you have no experience in the real international world (other then your mentioned country of cadets being perhaps Equatorial Guinea) and as to your suggestion I am under the affluence of inkahol suggests you are desperate to nulify my comments. I say what! Jolly good!

[HavaJava]

Say again, you're coming in stupid

[rigpiggy]

If somebody wants to pay my 737 TR I'll apply. How much do you want to bet I would be bypassed for any myriad number of reasons to maintain the status quo?

[Gino Under]

I have to laugh at the stupid suggestion Canadian pilots shouldn't take pilot jobs in a foreign country when pilots at home are SO against foreign pilots taking Canadian jobs away from Canadian pilots.

If you think this is the same thing (argument), then you don't understand the pilot job market one iota and you need to stay out of this debate. If you're that thick then maybe you shouldn't take on the decision making challenges of operating a modern air transport.

Gimme a ***kin' break!

Gino Under

[.......]

If you think this is the same thing (argument), then you don't understand the pilot job market one iota and you need to stay out of this debate.

+1....

[URC]

Does anyone know how much these foreign pilots working in Canada this winter (Sunwing/Canjet/WestJet) are actually getting paid ? Presumably they are being paid in Euros or Britsh Pounds and given good per diems at standard European aircrew rates ? I'm guessing that with the exchange rate they are probably making a lot more than the local crews being paid here in Canadian dollars ? Can anyone confirm this ? If so it just adds more fuel to the fire of this ongoing injustice against Canadian pilots.

[Phoenix_Rising]

For the pilots interesting in applying to Sunwing under the Seasonal Pilot program.

Here are some questions to consider

1) What are the Terms and Conditions of your contract and how do they compare to the other pilots employed by Sunwing
2) How does the bond work
3) Will you be part of the current Seniority list
4) Will this contract lead into a full time position
5) Will you be expected/forced to deploy in the summers and if so under what conditions.

This is a positive step forward in keeping jobs in Canada if done fairly and properly. BUT, I encourage all pilots to do their research and if possible talk to current Sunwing Pilots.

[Gino Under]

Would anyone know why the job posting was only for 7 days?
Winter's almost over, so was the recruiting for next winter?

Gino

[patrickairlie]

I suspect that 7 days is all that is required for an assessment of the workforce. If there were minimal applications, they could likely say that they did their due diligence and obviously need TFW's in the form of foreign pilots in order to make their business plan work.

No facts, purely speculation, however where there is smoke....

Where is their pilot association in all of this? They have abandoned all of their foreign registration flying this summer and now face layoffs when they could probably have had expansion. The people on the bottom of the list are going to suffer again for the greed of the more senior pilots.

[Phoenix_Rising]

Patrick Charlie,

I agree with the first part of your post .

The second part might not be entirely accurate.

I believe you are correct that there were some issues with foreign registered flying, but overseas Canadian register flying is still in the plans. Although not equal to the amount of pilots that came to Canada. Sunwing also told the pilots there would be no layoffs this summer.
From what I understand the association would like Canadian hiring and has been pushing for hiring of Canadian pilots.

I encourage all pilots to talk to a Sunwing pilot and ask his/her thoughts on the current climate at Sunwing

[.......]

Sorry that the article is in french but things are starting to happen...

http://www.journallenord.com/Actualités ... n-a-bord/1

I can't hyperlink the whole line, so you're gonna have to copy and paste in your browser...

[Gino Under]

Meetings like this are a great first step and I applaud the 15 pilots who took the time to speak with an MP. Now let's see what the follow up is.

Gino Under

[Donald]

What's the gist of the arcticle, in english?

[B757FO]

For the english only readers.
Here is the article.

MP Pierre Labelle Dionne is surprised at the hiring of foreign pilots.

MP Pierre Dionne Labelle (Rivière-du-Nord) met this week with a few airline pilots from Canada, who wanted to raise awareness of the impact of massive hiring by some companies, of foreign pilots rather than hiring Canadians.

"Canadian pilots are currently experiencing a crisis that puts them in an unknown employment situation. These jobs for pilots must remain primarily for Canadians: they are working and paying taxes in Canada, which is not the case for temporary foreign pilots, "said Pierre Dionne Labelle.

Reduced operating costs

The members explained that this practice allows these airlines to reduce their operating costs, claiming a shortage of pilots in Canada while the opposite is true. The hiring of these pilots infact violates several conditions of the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development Canada (HRSDC). "Some carriers, including Sunwing and Canjet, make use of temporary workers programs. Their goal is to receive an economic benefit by eliminating the costs of upgrades and training on equipment. So, the number of foreign pilots has increased from twenty in 2009 to over 220 in 2012. "Under the provisions of the program, the employer must prove that they are not able to find Canadian candidates to fill these positions. Also, many highly qualified Canadian pilots are currently unemployed and looking for work.

Thats the gist of the article. No flaming on the translation.

[MuckRucker]

So did anyone get called in for an interview? What were the terms and conditions as a contract pilot?

[TheGandM]

You can be pretty sure that nobody is going to receive a call for this job as they have no intention of hiring seasonal pilots. This is probably just to satisfy the Government that they have tried to find suitable Canadian pilots…to no avail...

[Paul Strachan]

Hello fellow Canadian pilots. I'm choosing this thread to wade into the fray for the first time.

The Air Canada Pilots Association has been active in government advocacy on this file for two years, now. We believe that the employment of foreign pilots at indeterminable rates of compensation - while Canadian pilots are out of work, leaving the country to find it, or leaving the industry altogether - is poor public policy.

I am looking forward to discussing this, and other issues, with you.

Best regards,

Paul

P.S. These are monumental times for our profession. I won't hide behind a pseudonym and I suggest you all shed yours, as well. Keep it civil and constructive and we shall have nothing to fear nor to shame.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

The Air Line Pilot's Association International, through it's Ottawa office, has been fighting this issue since at least 2008. Their efforts have gotten nowhere and fell on deaf ears. In the 2008-2009 winter season, SunWing was proposing to employ 40 foreign pilots. This number has since risen and reached approximately 200 pilots for the 2011-2012 season. It is rumored to be increased for the next season.

SunWing uses several different schemes to hire its foreign pilots:

First, it uses the reciprocity laws in Canada that allows Canadian employers to employ foreign workers if these foreign workers coming to Canada also allow Canadian workers to find work overseas. It seems though that there is no proportion between the number of foreign pilot coming to Canada and the number of Canadian Pilots going overseas.

Second, SunWing claims that there is a lack of domestically qualified pilots. They do this by requiring that their applicants to be Boeing 737NG type rated in order to apply. Now we all know that this is not the regular practice of Airlines in Canada. This requirement means that according to SunWing, almost none of Air Canada's 3000+ pilots, almost none Jazz's 1500+ pilots and almost none of Air Transat's 420 pilots are qualified to apply at SunWing, except for the few that had flown B-737NGs in their previous jobs.

The third group of foreign pilots are those who come with the damp leased B-737s that SunWing charters every winter season and which fly in Canada with a foreign registration and foreign pilots at the controls. These pilots require no work permits top fly in Canada from the moment that their leases are approved by the relevant Canadian authorities.

Are we going to allow SunWing to employ possibly 300 foreign pilots next year, or are we going to ask our government that they ask SunWing to hire pilots who are licensed in Canada, who legally live in Canada and who pay taxes in this country ?

[.......]

Canada is the only G8 country in which pilots don't have job protection. Other countries, in their wording, use the term "qualifiable" instead of "qualified"...

So, in those countries, no foreign pilot is allowed to work there until ALL qualifiable pilots have jobs. This is the kind of protection we need, and fast.

[confuzed]

Are we going to allow SunWing to employ possibly 300 foreign pilots next year, or are we going to ask our government that they ask SunWing to hire pilots who are licensed in Canada, who legally live in Canada and who pay taxes in this country ?

We can ask all we want and make as much noise as we want, unfortunately this government doesn't seem to care.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I've also heard that story: 5 to 7 Travel Service Czech pilots that were to fly dry-leased aircraft for Sunwing, failed their Canadian PPC's and were sent home, only to come back at the controls of the Czech registered, Travel Service operated 737 that Sunwing wet-leased last January.

Foreign pilots who fly dry leased aircraft need to obtain a Canadian Foreign Licence Validation and do a PPC, while the pilots of wet-leased aircraft can just fly with their own country's licence, with no Transport Canada oversight.

If anyone has any further details about this issue, please post it here or contact me directly, I would like to hear from you. We have to stop this dry leasing non-sense and this will certainly provide us with a major argument to help us stop it.

[ea306]

"Foreign pilots who fly dry leased aircraft need to obtain a Canadian Foreign Licence Validation and do a PPC, while the pilots of wet-leased aircraft can just fly with their own country's licence, with no Transport Canada oversight.

If anyone has any further details about this issue, please post it here or contact me directly, I would like to hear from you. We have to stop this dry leasing non-sense and this will certainly provide us with a major argument to help us stop it."

Not questioning all elements of your concern but I think pursuing this angle may be a bit of a deadender......

Here is why I think this:

There is not ONE single Foreign registered airline flying into Canada that has its pilots subjected to a TC PPC. Not a single foreign carrier flying into and out of this country with Canadian passengers on board is under the direct oversight and governance of Transport Canada as far as pilot proficiency checks are concerned. Each Foreign carrier is governed by each respective state to which the carrier is from.

As you stated: Only pilots flying Canadian Registered aircraft have to prove their competency to meet TC and the Canadian Aircarrier's operating standards. That includes those foreigners operating in a License Validation.

I know you know this already... But I put forward these two thoughts:

1) The level of performance demanded by the Sunwing Pilot Training department is such that not all pilots with a lower level of English Proficiency or Lack of Sunwing SOP proficiency will be able to meet the standards enforced. This speaks well of the training department.

2) And the other hand, not all the foreigner pilots necessarily wish to spend their winter here in Canada. That group will not feel motivated to perform well if the reward is to be sent back home if they fail to meet standard. This only speaks of the desire of some to not be here in Canada. That should make some of us here on this forum happy....lol

[rudder]

1) The level of performance demanded by the Sunwing Pilot Training department is such that not all pilots with a lower level of English Proficiency or Lack of Sunwing SOP proficiency will be able to meet the standards enforced. This speaks well of the training department.

Regardless, there are changes coming in the Sunwing Pilot Training Department.