Those senoirity handcuffs.

[noflex]

Hello friends/peers,

It seems that every few months or so there is a new dilemma at air canada. It almost seems like a big part of the company's culture is bitching about how shitty everyone's got it. This latest one is a bit more of a doozey than usual, however I get the feeling the company will still have just as many pilots when this "blows over." Is anyone actually looking for work elsewhere?, or does everyone still think they are better off at AC? I realize there are alot of people who are kind of in to deep to pull out. But for alot of the pilots, (like the bottom 25-30%, there are way better jobs out there. Obviously not enough jobs for everyone, but they are there. (Some corporate jobs, offer a much better lifestyle, with comparable pay). I'm just curious why everyone seems to bitch about the company till they're sick, but anyone Iv'e suggested quitting too, looks at me like I'm crazy. Is it the the senoirity, the fancy uniform, or the big airplanes? I'm just genuinely curious how many, if any are looking for something else, and if not what is keeping you makeing money for a company you hate.

Best of luck

[Wacko]

I'm just genuinely curious how many, if any are looking for something else, and if not what is keeping you makeing money for a company you hate.

Best of luck

+1!

[Rockie]

however I get the feeling the company will still have just as many pilots when this "blows over." Is anyone actually looking for work elsewhere?, or does everyone still think they are better off at AC?

A few have resigned so far, more are taking early retirement just to get away from the toxic atmosphere here. If the company gets what they want there will be no pension to hold guys at Air Canada, and the airplane they fly will be given to another company along with their job.

What do you think that will do for pilot retention and morale?

[Wacko]

Ok I haven't really thought this through and the fact that the upper management is getting million dollar bonuses on a company that's virtually bankrupt is beyond me but...

... the pension debate is not limited to AC or even Canada... The way I understand it, the longer you stay with the company, the higher the return on your pension... those who work over 60 will get a substantial pension increase for the next x years they work. Is that correct?

In any case, since pensions seem to be a huge stumbling block and with a lot of (younger) pilots suggesting that by the time they retire they will not have a pension for them anyway, why doesn't the company split the money left in the reserve relative to time served and call it a day? I understand that you would not get as much as one would if they went through the normal process but isn't getting something better then potentially getting nothing at all?

I personally don't plan on a company retirement package and would rather get an extra few bucks to invest in a way I chose vs. having someone do it for me.

I just want to understand...

Thanks

[Rockie]

those who work over 60 will get a substantial pension increase for the next x years they work. Is that correct?

Pensionable time increases until you reach 35 years of service, which most people at Air Canada now would not be able to do were the retirement age to remain at 60. With a DB pension the longer a person contributes to it logically the less time they have to receive a pension, and that is all accounted for by actuaries when managing the fund.

why doesn't the company split the money left in the reserve relative to time served and call it a day?

Because the money doesn't belong to the company, otherwise they would use it for their own purposes which have nothing to do with the employees.

[vic777]

Because the money doesn't belong to the company, otherwise they would use it for their own purposes which have nothing to do with the employees.

Too right! It would all be gone in Management Bonuses.

[ogopogo]

If the company gets what they want there will be no pension to hold guys at Air Canada


Is it really all THAT important?? The chance to eventually move up a make good money will still be there. Something like 75% of Canadians don't even have company pensions, they have to make their own future.

[Old fella]

Take it from this old fool who has been around way too long. Senior people and I mean top dogs always feather their nests big time. They look after those who who helped them to get to their lofty positions and their friends as well. Bugger the rest and the underlings. Always was, will now and in the future.............

Which means boys and girls - envoke that Backman Turner tune of yesteryears; looking out for number one. That is what you have to do, nobody else will.

[Rockie]

If the company gets what they want there will be no pension to hold guys at Air Canada


Is it really all THAT important??

Seriously????

Do you plan on working until the day you die or is retirement included at some point?

[robertsailor1]

I think whats he's trying to say is that why not be like the rest of us, save for your retirement.

[onspeed]

Interesting topic, I wonder if it's more pension handcuffs than seniority related. How many guys who have been with AC for 10 + yrs have saved for retirement or are ppl counting on the AC pension? If AC had a DC pension you could take your experience and money and walk if you really didn't want to be there anymore.

[ogopogo]

If the company gets what they want there will be no pension to hold guys at Air Canada


Is it really all THAT important??

Seriously????

Do you plan on working until the day you die or is retirement included at some point?

Rockie: for most Canadians, retirement does not necessarily = pension. It just means no paycheque anymore. Do you think everyone has a pension coming to them? (other than CPP)

[teacher]

I personally don't plan on a company retirement package and would rather get an extra few bucks to invest in a way I chose vs. having someone do it for me.

I just want to understand...

Thanks

It's the way of the future like it or not. DB pension plans are a drag on company finances and the majority of legacy companies, not just airlines, cannot price their products and services to be able to easily afford them. Especially when their competition does not have these expenses. Newer companies don't have them for their employees for a reason. Give me the extra money to invest in my RRSP as I see fit and on my retirement day a handshake and maybe a plaque is all I need from them. This is coming from someone with a DB plan.

[Mig29]

Give me the extra money to invest in my RRSP as I see fit and on my retirement day a handshake and maybe a plaque is all I need from them. This is coming from someone with a DB plan.

I'm with you on this all the way....BUT, it's the company's responsability to make sure there is enough MONEY in the pension fund in the first place and that it is managed safely. Right? AC, Jazz and many other companies INSIST on mandatory pension plan deductions from their employees. Why is it then the employees fault at the end? Like you said, I'd be willing to have the chance to use my money at my own will, but they won't let you....

[Rockie]

Rockie: for most Canadians, retirement does not necessarily = pension. It just means no paycheque anymore. Do you think everyone has a pension coming to them? (other than CPP)

I've spent most of my working life saving for retirement and won't get enough of a DB pension to live on by itself. I know both sides of this particular fence intimately well.

Is this a case of "I don't have one so nobody should have one"? There are plenty of homeless people too, so should everybody be homeless? Shouldn't the objective be to ensure everybody has enough income to live on when they can no longer work?

Come on people, lift people up to a higher standard rather than dragging everyone down to a lower one.

[robertsailor1]

Thats really not the point, point is that out there in the dog eat dog world most Canadians live in there are no pensions for 75% of the workers and that number is getting higher every year. The Government workers and Air Canada are amoung the privileged few who get special treatment. So its hard for someone that isn't a member of that club to feel sorry for you. Thats the point.

[BverLuver]

Shouldn't the objective be to ensure everybody has enough income to live on when they can no longer work?

So let's f$ck the responsible people who save and invest wisely because others expect someone else to do it for them so they can be frivolous? Nope, not for me....you can't save a percentage of your 300% plus over median income salary, sorry cry on someone elses shoulder I ain't buyin your koolaid. Keep that attitude going and AC won't be the only thing you bankrupt.

BL

[Rockie]

So let's f$ck the responsible people who save and invest wisely because others expect someone else to do it for them so they can be frivolous? Nope, not for me....you can't save a percentage of your 300% plus over median income salary, sorry cry on someone elses shoulder I ain't buyin your koolaid. Keep that attitude going and AC won't be the only thing you bankrupt.

How exactly are "responsible" people getting screwed? And where do you get this 300% over median income from? You have no idea - none - what the majority of Air Canada pilots get paid and especially what junior pilots get paid.

Nobody here is crying on anybody's shoulder, we demand our rights under labour law. If anything you pathetically insist that Air Canada pilots give up what they have for no reason other than you don't have it. Who's crying?

If Air Canada goes bankrupt it will be in accordance with management's plan, not due to anything the pilots did. All Air Canada has to do to avoid all of this is negotiate. That's it...negotiate. Not too hard is it? Even you should be able to figure out what to do in that case if bankruptcy is imminent. Negotiate. It's how lasting collective agreements are reached, but neither you, the government or Air Canada can seem to figure that out or are even interested.

[BverLuver]

Rockie,

Im sorry that you are too blinded to see past your own nose, but you are right, I know nothing about anything. It's amazing that I have been able to get through life, have a successful career, have an extremely successful side business, very gratifying family life and been able to put enough away to be able to retire in complete comfort at 55 with very little help from my employers and all without your guidance, simply astounding and mystifying isn't it? After all, you are the guru of social living aren't you? How did I do it? I am starting to question it myself as I must have done it wrong since I am not miserable and in an endless battle with my employers, union, bank account, wife etc etc etc!

But hey, what do I know? Actually Rockie, you would be surprised what I know and the inside info that I have, but you just keep fighting the same fight, it's been working so well for you thus far. Heres one tiny little hint, why don't you try a different approach and respect your customers, employers, union, government and see if that fares a bit better in garnering some support. Otherwise you look like a group of 4yr olds fighting over the shovel in the sandbox.

BL

[teacher]

"BverLuver" does make 1 good point

You (all the employees) have shown what they are capable of. Now that you've all made your point driving the company into CCAA will help nobody. It's time now to show WHY you are worth what you say you are worth.

[noflex]

So it seems like the expectation of a pension is what's keeping some pilots loyal to Air Canada. I'm assuming mostly for the guys who have been there a while. Any relatively newer hires, wanna weigh in? Whats keeping the guys who have only been there for 5 years or so around?

[Rockie]

Im sorry that you are too blinded to see past your own nose, but you are right, I know nothing about anything.

I wish some people would learn how to read. I said you have no idea what the majority of Air Canada pilots get paid especially the junior ones. How you go from that to knowing nothing about anything is puzzling, but you at least have proven my point. You have no idea what the majority of Air Canada pilots get paid.

It's amazing that I have been able to get through life, have a successful career, have an extremely successful side business, very gratifying family life and been able to put enough away to be able to retire in complete comfort at 55 with very little help from my employers and all without your guidance, simply astounding and mystifying isn't it? After all, you are the guru of social living aren't you? How did I do it? I am starting to question it myself as I must have done it wrong since I am not miserable and in an endless battle with my employers, union, bank account, wife etc etc etc!

What's amazing after reading this arrogant childish drivel is how much of a hypocrite you are. How would you react if someone made it clear they no longer want to pay you the pension they committed to paying you?

In your successful side business what would your reaction be if the government imposed how much you would make rather than leaving it between you and your vendors? Would you be a little upset perhaps?

What if the government took away your rights? Happy?

If you suggest you wouldn't act as we are to protect what we have then you sir are full of shit.

You sanctimoniously pass judgement on people who don't enjoy the same circumstance you do, and you accuse me of inadequate situation awareness?

[accumulous]

"BverLuver" does make 1 good point

You (all the employees) have shown what they are capable of. Now that you've all made your point driving the company into CCAA will help nobody. It's time now to show WHY you are worth what you say you are worth.

You nailed it, because the gavel has come down in The Court Of Public Opinion.

WestJet is Canada's preferred airline
Airline takes top spot in price, value and customer service

CALGARY, March 23, 2012 /CNW/ - WestJet announced today it is Canada's preferred airline, according to research performed by TNS Canada on behalf of the airline.

Conducted in each of the last two quarters of 2011, the results showed that 44 per cent of Canadians said they prefer WestJet overall, as compared to 39 per cent for Air Canada. Participants were also asked to rate airlines in the categories of "genuinely cares", best customer service, lowest prices and best value. In all categories, WestJet's scores were approximately double that of Air Canada's.

"I am extremely pleased with these results," said Bob Cummings, WestJet Executive Vice-President, Sales, Marketing and Guest Experience. "WestJet has built its brand on the pillars that Canadians trust us, they like to fly with us and they feel we offer great value. We are now at the point where our schedule, our WestJet Rewards program, our appeal to business travellers and our award-winning guest experience have made us Canada's preferred airline."

The TNS Canada research is an ongoing online survey among Canadians who have taken a flight within the past 12 months. Approximately 2,700 surveys are completed each quarter in a nationally representative sample of Canadian flyers across the 10 provinces.

In light of current labour unrest at Air Canada, WestJet would also like Canadians to know that it is able to help travellers whose plans may be affected, particularly in Toronto and Montreal where most of the service disruptions have been reported.

From now until April 1, WestJet has approximately 26,000 seats available on flights leaving from Toronto and about 7,600 seats on flights leaving from Montreal. There are more than 143,000 seats available across WestJet's 76-city national and international network over the next week or so.

"We want Canadians to know they can book a WestJet flight with confidence," said Bob Cummings. "If travellers are worried that labour unrest at Air Canada will jeopardize their spring break vacation, their flight to visit family and friends, or their business trip, we want them to know that we will do our best to get them where they want to go."

Flight arrangements can be made on westjet.com, through the WestJet Sales Super Centre at 1-888-WESTJET (1-888-937-8538) or by contacting your travel agent.

About WestJet

WestJet is Canada's preferred airline, offering scheduled service throughout its 76-city North American and Caribbean network. Inducted into Canada's Most Admired Corporate Cultures Hall of Fame and named one of Canada's best employers, WestJet pioneered low-cost flying in Canada. Named a J.D. Power 2011 Customer Service Champion, WestJet offers increased legroom and leather seats on its modern fleet of 98 Boeing Next-Generation 737 aircraft. With future confirmed deliveries for an additional 37 aircraft through 2018, WestJet strives to be one of the five most successful international airlines in the world.

[Rockie]

Westjet deserves it too. What a different company Air Canada would be if they stopped going to war with everybody including their employees.

Everybody heaps blame on the employees for inconveniencing them and causing the imminent downfall of Air Canada. At what point does Air Canada management - who has complete control over everything from start to finish - assume some responsibility?

[BverLuver]

Im sorry that you are too blinded to see past your own nose, but you are right, I know nothing about anything.

I wish some people would learn how to read. I said you have no idea what the majority of Air Canada pilots get paid especially the junior ones. How you go from that to knowing nothing about anything is puzzling, but you at least have proven my point. You have no idea what the majority of Air Canada pilots get paid.

It's amazing that I have been able to get through life, have a successful career, have an extremely successful side business, very gratifying family life and been able to put enough away to be able to retire in complete comfort at 55 with very little help from my employers and all without your guidance, simply astounding and mystifying isn't it? After all, you are the guru of social living aren't you? How did I do it? I am starting to question it myself as I must have done it wrong since I am not miserable and in an endless battle with my employers, union, bank account, wife etc etc etc!

What's amazing after reading this arrogant childish drivel is how much of a hypocrite you are. How would you react if someone made it clear they no longer want to pay you the pension they committed to paying you?

In your successful side business what would your reaction be if the government imposed how much you would make rather than leaving it between you and your vendors? Would you be a little upset perhaps?

What if the government took away your rights? Happy?

If you suggest you wouldn't act as we are to protect what we have then you sir are full of shit.

You sanctimoniously pass judgement on people who don't enjoy the same circumstance you do, and you accuse me of inadequate situation awareness?

Rockie,

They give and take rights on a regular basis, I choose to deal with it and learn how I make the most of it for my family and business rather than bitch about it endlessly. We get changes to tax laws, labour laws, standards etc that affect our bottom line every year, and the onus is on me is to find loopholes or efficiencies and utilize them. If my elected government, who holds a majority, feels it is necessary to pay for social programs, so be it. You don't think the NDP or Libs would be trying to find ways to pay for the exorbitant amounts of spending they proposed or reigning in "liberal rights" that they campaign for but would never be able to implement? You sir are the one in La La land. The point I am making is the government affects us in different ways, but make no mistake, they affect us very deeply.

However, the main difference between me and you Rockie, is that I don't EXPECT someone else to look after me and give me everything I want or think I deserve and unrelentingly whine about it when they don't! No one has given me anything. I have worked and paid big personal prices for everything I have, so I am a hypocrite?

The folks at RIM have had their shares reduced from $140 to just over $14 because of poor management and lack of direction by people who are worth tens and hudreds of millions even billions more than the workers and still collecting huge pay cheques. Would it make sense for the workers go to retail stores and harass customers that are swtiching to iPhones when the Blackberry has not progressed with the rest of the industry, or show up for work in Waterloo only to walk off the job disrupting production or deliveries and further hurt the companies reputation to make the company better and secure their jobs for the future? That will help them get back lost market share right?

Your company is broken, work with management to fix it, don't make it more difficult for them to fix. Despite what you think, it's been broken for a very long time. It is not a current product of the past 2 regimes, it is cumulative. Once again, I know more about AC and salaries etc than you may think I know. But as earlier stated, keep fighting the same fight. It will clearly work out in your favour as history suggests, right?

Everybody heaps blame on the employees for inconveniencing them and causing the imminent downfall of Air Canada. At what point does Air Canada management - who has complete control over everything from start to finish - assume some responsibility?

Does the Union teach classes in deflection? You all seem to be masters. Try looking in the mirror and cleaning your own kitchen before rinsing the management down the drain. The arrogance being displayed by AC employees (not just pilots) is startling, you guys will all be in for a rude awakening when you are forced to live like the rest of us and realise that you are not special or above the general population. So stop trying to hold us hostage, we won't take it and we will not return.

BL