Military pilot application window?

[Gannet167]

There are probably 100 other trades as well that you might be qualified for and enjoy.

[126.7_STFU]

Trampbike / Bradley, check your PMs

[Expat]

So what happens if you fail PFT or BFT as on ROTP? Your forces to do 7-9 years in a different trade?

Mcrit is correct, if you fail PFT or BFT you meet with a personnel selection officer and they give you a list of trades that are available to you. You then pick the one that interests you. If you are lucky, some good trades might be open, it is not unheard of though for guys to be given the choice between infantry officer, artillery officer or combat engineer officer...

Once your obligatory service is up, you can either stick around or release.

True.
Been there...

[petite]

So what happens if you fail PFT or BFT as on ROTP? Your forces to do 7-9 years in a different trade?

Mcrit is correct, if you fail PFT or BFT you meet with a personnel selection officer and they give you a list of trades that are available to you. You then pick the one that interests you. If you are lucky, some good trades might be open, it is not unheard of though for guys to be given the choice between infantry officer, artillery officer or combat engineer officer...

Once your obligatory service is up, you can either stick around or release.

Well son, how did you feel about tanks?

[trampbike]

Bradley pretty much said it all, but I'll add:

So prior to this change, they just ranked you based on your final (4th session / simulation score) but now they use the old system AND .... the RAF test score? So if you screw up this "RAF" test you're screwed? What is this RAF test anyway? Simulator work, aptitude testing ? What is it comprised of?

Once you pass the CAPSS, are medically fit and the security check is good, you go on the merit list.
There, the ROTP selection boards takes into account:
-CFAT scores
- Interview
- Quality of the application (grades, work experience etc)

Now, they add to that your CAPPS score and one section of the RAF test.

My best advice would be to stop worrying about how people are ranked on the merit list and are selected, just apply and do your best, you'll know soon enough if you were good enough.
Spend your time improving your application and learning as much as you can about the duties of a pilot in the CF and more generally: the duties of a CF officer.
Try to learn as much as you can about the training process, the aircrafts of the CF and the history of the CF.
Practise mental maths, written multiplications and divisions, and fractions handling so the CFAT is a piece of cake.
All of this is more likely to give you an edge than knowing how the selection board works. Anyway, nobody except the members of the board, can tell you 100% accurate stuff of the subject.

What does this RAF test do exactly that the other testing does not?

The RAF test has many different sections, some of them very similar to the CFAT. There is a wicked unfolded cubes section. I thought I was good at 3D visualisation (got 100% in the CFAT), but this thing really humbled me!

There is also a couple of coordination exercises. It's done on a computer with a cheap joystick and rudder pedals. It has nothing to do with a flight sim.
Really, there's nothing you can do to prepare for this, other than sleeping well the nights before...


EDIT: here are a couple of usefull links. Start reading. Good luck

This guy went the DEO route and didn't make it out of BFT. Some of the info is not accurate, but it's a fun read.
http://frombootcamptoflying.blogspot.com/

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/ ... 660.0.html

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/ ... 651.0.html

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=68320

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=72377

You could spent weeks on this website:
http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/v2/index-eng.asp

[careerpilot?]

it is not unheard of though for guys to be given the choice between infantry officer, artillery officer or combat engineer officer...

C'mon, don't hack too much on the Infantry! I've given 11 years of my life to the Patricias... But then again, I'm one of those "so you can't go pilot because of your eyes.... But since you like camping, maybe the Infantry is for you!"

Now I'm another one of those guys trying to get into Pilot now that they've relaxed the vision requirements... Not an easy task to transfer over these days...

Resurrecting an old thread to say that, funny enough, I just got picked up for Military Aircrew. Passed selection, and I start Phase 1 on the Grob G120A on 24 September.

Military hiring went way up this year - it's a great time to apply if you have a university degree already. The backlog of training has been cleared and it's smooth sailing!

[JMACK]

it is not unheard of though for guys to be given the choice between infantry officer, artillery officer or combat engineer officer...

C'mon, don't hack too much on the Infantry! I've given 11 years of my life to the Patricias... But then again, I'm one of those "so you can't go pilot because of your eyes.... But since you like camping, maybe the Infantry is for you!"

Now I'm another one of those guys trying to get into Pilot now that they've relaxed the vision requirements... Not an easy task to transfer over these days...

Resurrecting an old thread to say that, funny enough, I just got picked up for Military Aircrew. Passed selection, and I start Phase 1 on the Grob G120A on 24 September.

Military hiring went way up this year - it's a great time to apply if you have a university degree already. The backlog of training has been cleared and it's smooth sailing!

That is awesome news Bro! Congrats!

11 years in you deserve it!

I flew Dash-8 with a lad from the PPCLI He went to Westjet excellent guy wish I could remember his name? I'm sure he's a skipper by now!

Again good on you ENJOY!!!

Jim

[luzzbightyear]

I'm in the exact same position as flightman. Just finished grade 11 and going into 12 in september. I am looking at the air force as an option, or going civilian via confed of sault. But paid training, paid tuition, and basic salary is too good to shy away from.

From reading this thread I have a few questions:

1) Is the deadline for this year to apply september 2012? or can I apply any time during the year?
2) What is the difference between DEO and ROTP? From what I gather you need a degree while training to be a pilot?
3) Finally, (directed at trampbike) when do you start pilot training? and when do you (if you haven't already) start flying full time for the air force?

cheers.

[careerpilot?]

Luzz,

I'll attempt to answer your questions from my knowledge, and will indicate where I'm not entirely sure:

1. I believe the deadline for this year may have passed already, but this should not be an issue for you as you are a year out anyway. Given that you don't have a university degree yet, you will be looking at ROTP (see #2 below). I am near certain that ROTP applications run in concert with the school year (at least they did 11 years ago when I did the process). The goal is to have those who will be selected attend basic training by end June or early July, so they can be complete to attend university in September. Therefore, deadlines will probably be sometime no earlier than January/February timeframe for coursing in Summer 2013. For DEO, the school year would not be a factor, but I think the scheduling of courses is probably driven by availability of candidates; if there are enough DEO, they may run courses outside the Summer timeframe, but I can't verify this.

2. DEO vs ROTP - DEO is Direct Entry Officer, you will require a university degree in a suitable field before you can apply DEO. ROTP is the Regular Officer Training Plan, and this is where you would do Basic in July/August, then attend the Royal Military College or a Civilian University in September. Therefore, you are perfectly positioned to apply for Summer 2013. There is nothing to stop you from applying now (and I would encourage you do it early), but ultimately you won't be selected or start training until June or July of 2013 - ideal in your situation. The reason I encourage you to go early is because there are several hoops you must jump through, especially for Pilot (selection, medicals, etc...). It is best to start early so you don't find yourself stressing to meet the timelines. The best place to start is your local recruiting center - you can go in and speak to them with no obligation whatsoever, and they will be very approachable.

3. Directed at Trampbike.

[luzzbightyear]

Thanks for the info. So if I understand correctly, DEO is for 'older' guys who have a degree and fit the requirements of officer. I'm also curious about how going to civilian university works. Do you need a higher high school average? Because I would assume its more expensive for the military to pay for you to attend, so the spots are fewer? And wouldn't you need to be situated close to your pilot training?

sorry for the hijack flightman

[careerpilot?]

Thanks for the info. So if I understand correctly, DEO is for 'older' guys who have a degree and fit the requirements of officer. I'm also curious about how going to civilian university works. Do you need a higher high school average? Because I would assume its more expensive for the military to pay for you to attend, so the spots are fewer? And wouldn't you need to be situated close to your pilot training?

sorry for the hijack flightman

Funny enough, in my experience it works the other way around. There are fewer spots, but generally, those with lower averages would go to Civilian university. I did not have the high school marks for RMC, but the CF still wanted me (remember I applied as an Infantry Officer), so they told me if I could get accepted into a civilian university then I could go Civvy U (as we call it). By lower marks, I generally mean in the 75-80% range, which it would appear for that year wasn't competetive enough for RMC.

Civvy U is the best kept secret out there. You train in the summertime in your given trade (I believe Pilot works somewhat different, as the courses are too long to run in the summer - they do most of the training after university, and on the job training during summers. Maybe someone can confirm this?) There is no requirement to be close to where they run the courses, they will transport you and house you during those courses.

During the school year, you study like any other student - civilian clothes, etc. while earning a paycheque from the CF (admittedly, it's barely enough to live on, but puts you in the ballpark with the other students - and your tuition is paid, of course). You have a great deal of freedom to set your own schedule and enrol in whatever electives you want. The only thing to keep in mind is they give you more than enough rope to hang yourself, so if you don't perform (fail any classes, become a disciplinary problem) you will quickly find yourself on the way out. In my opinion (and this may cause some flame) you are treated far more like an adult than RMC candidates. RMC is a good school, but don't discount the Civvy U program as being inferior. Once you are serving in the CF, you will be treated absolutely the same - you all have a degree, and that's all that matters.

[luzzbightyear]

wow thanks very interesting. Since I haven't decided yet, you believe I have until december/january to apply for the following year civi/rmc pilot program?

[trampbike]

careerpilot? pretty much said it all, althought I don't think he is right about the link between the grades and civiU/RMC. I really think it depends on many other factors, like the degree you choose or the number of credits you might already have. For example, I applied with already half a degree in meteorology. It would not have made any sense to send me to Kingston for 3 year to start a whole new degree that is less relevant for a pilot, no matter what my grades were.

luzzbightyear, I posted a bunch of links in this thread and I highly suggest you take the time to read a lot. You'll be much more successful if you are able to use all the ressources available and find information by yourself rather than just asking questions that have been asked and answered so many times on these forums. You can apply for ROTP whenever you want to, but the applications are processed only from september to approximately january (for pilot). You should start to complete all the forms soon and bring them to your CFRC before september, so if you did everything right and the CFRC doesn't lose anything in your file (which would be quite a surprise), you should be able to do CFAT, interview and first medical during the fall, and ACS and DRDC in December or January.

@careerpilot?: Congrats on the transfer! Good luck in Portage, and keep us informed about the course. I heard it's a brand new course.

3) Finally, (directed at trampbike) when do you start pilot training? and when do you (if you haven't already) start flying full time for the air force?

This is very hard to tell, since the OJT time between each phase of training can vary a lot. Some people do 6 months or less of OJT, others can wait a year and a half before the next phase. I have no idea how the training backlog looks like right now. I have only 6 courses to do before I get my degree, so right after that, it's OJT, PFT in Portage, OJT, BFT in MooseJaw or Portage (depends if you go Harvard II or Grob), and then it depends wether you go rotary, multi of fighter. If the backlog for PFT isn't too long, I should be in Portage next summer, Moose Jaw maybe a couple of months after that (IF I pass PFT, it is still pretty much a selection course where about 25% of the aspiring pilots are cut).

[EDIT]: I'm currently in St-Jean, 10 weeks in my BMOQ, 5 weeks away from graduation. Like few others on the course, I'm actually having a blast. It can really be fun if you have to right attitude and take it for what it really is: a big game where they test your resilience and motivation in any way they can imagine.

[luzzbightyear]

Thanks for the reply trampbike. I've been mulling over this thread, and the threads/blog you posted for quite a while. I like to ask questions myself though. Still trying to decide whether the air force is something I want to commit too.

Tough to resist when I'm looking out the window right now seeing c-130s flying around trenton

[trampbike]

Tough to resist when I'm looking out the window right now seeing c-130s flying around trenton

They sure do. Although you will need to consider the fact that about half of the pilots coming out of BFT are sent to Portage to get their wings on helicopters (Jet Ranger, then Griffon). For some people who are dead set on FW, the high probability of ending up rotary is an important factor. I personally would love to go rotary so it really isn't a problem.

[AuxBatOn]

But paid training, paid tuition, and basic salary is too good to shy away from.

Just make sure you do the military route for the right reasons. Don't try being a pilot in the military because of the paid training, salary, etc. Yes it is nice, but it comes to a price.

Ask yourself: Would you be comfortable, once qualified, to be sent into a combat zone and being shot at and/or killing people. If you say no, I would encourage you to go another path. Even if you are not at the pointy end dropping the bombs, you are supporting the organization.

I have met, over the years, student pilots that wanted to use the military as a stepping stone for the civilian life or wanted to fly in the military but not deploy anywhere. Almost all those that kept that attitude failed, at some point or another.

[Big Pistons Forever]

But paid training, paid tuition, and basic salary is too good to shy away from.

Just make sure you do the military route for the right reasons. Don't try being a pilot in the military because of the paid training, salary, etc. Yes it is nice, but it comes to a price.

Ask yourself: Would you be comfortable, once qualified, to be sent into a combat zone and being shot at and/or killing people. If you say no, I would encourage you to go another path. Even if you are not at the pointy end dropping the bombs, you are supporting the organization.

I have met, over the years, student pilots that wanted to use the military as a stepping stone for the civilian life or wanted to fly in the military but not deploy anywhere. Almost all those that kept that attitude failed, at some point or another.

+ 1

Also you are an officer who happens to fly aircraft not a pilot who happens to be an officer. There will be a lot of secondary duties and ground work you will have to do even if you are in a line squadron billet and the majority of CF pilots will fly less then 300 hours a year. It is still a great job and you will get world class training, just make sure you understand and are willing to live with all of your responsibilities and duties as a Canadian Forces Officer.

[luzzbightyear]

Great points I hadn't thought about,

cheers guys

[careerpilot?]

+1 to all the comments on being an Officer. I come from a culture where leadership is paramount when you have bars on your shoulder, and I can tell you that the perception (I emphasize perception - right or wrong...) of other organizations within the CF that don't have that ethos is unfortunately not all that stellar... It's incredibly important to remember you are a leader first, always.

Trampbike: Thanks for the luck! I'll definately keep you in the loop. Good luck in St Jean! FYI, backlog for PFT is very short right now. As of March, there were only 4 pers awaiting training - that will have gone up due to the DEO and OT boards sitting this spring, but I think they have started doing a better job of recruiting at a pace that is sustainable through the training system, so the backlog shouldn't significantly increase. In fact, the Training Officer at 2 CAD told me that Phase II Grob is being utilized much less now, as they've cleared most of the Phase II backlog.

From what I can tell, they've revamped the entire system to make it more efficient and produce higher quality pilots - all pluses for those of us starting our way through! Incidentally, my training has been bumped up to 5 September until 11 December, with Phase II slated for next June (aeromedical and survival to occur in between).

[OfstieR]

Also, FYI there is another program open besides ROTP and DEO. Its called the Continuing Education Officer Training Plan (CEOTP). Typically in the past it only opened periodically depending on the fiscal year and the intake numbers for that year. It is currently OPEN and has been completely revamped this year. It is now a partnership between the RCAF and Seneca college. You go to Seneca college for periods of full time schooling paid for by the CF, and also complete your BMOQ, PFT and BFT and all the other required courses inbetween those periods of full time schooling. The flying courses you take, are considered credits and count towards your degree requirements at SECENCA, so the period of full time schooling is less than that of a typical ROTP applicant.

I applied for the CEOTP as an internal applicant (I'm a serving Army Reservist) and am headed to ASC on monday. Keep in mind though the application process takes time. So, even if your going into grade 12, I would apply as soon as possible as it takes a lot of time to process applications. Although my situation is different as I'm applying internally as a Component Transfer/Occupational transfer, I still applied 16 Months ago and my application is finally being processed now! So if your serious, I would apply sooner rather than later.

Also, as the other posters have pointed out, there is a HUGE wealth of knowledge on Army.ca regarding the entire process. I have been trolling there for years learning everything I can, and I will say the best information and most RELIABLE information I have found anywhere is on that site!

Regards,

Rob

[old_man]

But paid training, paid tuition, and basic salary is too good to shy away from.

Just make sure you do the military route for the right reasons. Don't try being a pilot in the military because of the paid training, salary, etc. Yes it is nice, but it comes to a price.

Ask yourself: Would you be comfortable, once qualified, to be sent into a combat zone and being shot at and/or killing people. If you say no, I would encourage you to go another path. Even if you are not at the pointy end dropping the bombs, you are supporting the organization.

I have met, over the years, student pilots that wanted to use the military as a stepping stone for the civilian life or wanted to fly in the military but not deploy anywhere. Almost all those that kept that attitude failed, at some point or another.

+ 1

Also you are an officer who happens to fly aircraft not a pilot who happens to be an officer. There will be a lot of secondary duties and ground work you will have to do even if you are in a line squadron billet and the majority of CF pilots will fly less then 300 hours a year. It is still a great job and you will get world class training, just make sure you understand and are willing to live with all of your responsibilities and duties as a Canadian Forces Officer.

+1. Don't forget the consequences of failing as well. If you decide to go for that 'paid tuition' you owe the CF some service time regardless of how you do in pilot training. Last I checked 1 in 3 failed off of PFT in the first 10 flights (those numbers no doubt have changed). So if you don't make it as a pilot you would still have to fulfill your service in some other occupation at the CF's discretion.

[luzzbightyear]

another thing to think of, thanks old_man. Also like you flightman, I'd love to go rotary as much as fw so that's not a problem.

[CLguy]

OfstieR the CEOTP is not just available to Seneca grads but also the grads of the Aviation Programs at Sault and Confederation College as well.

[126.7_STFU]

OfstieR the CEOTP is not just available to Seneca grads but also the grads of the Aviation Programs at Sault and Confederation College as well.

It's been closed for years. Though I think they may be taking some this year.

The competition these days is immense.

[luzzbightyear]

hey sorry everyone, one more quick question. I noticed some people who have applied for pilot only put pilot on their three choices, no others. While some put 1. pilot, 2.mechanical engineer 3. xxxx. What is the strategy or advantage not putting other trades down in addition to pilot?