ACPA Pilots AD in Newspapers Mach 31 2012

[chatman]

CCaa is in the near future, so all this talk wont really matter

[Rollercoaster Rider]

Sorry Rockie blaming Harper for your mess is like blaming the easter bunny because your wife is fat from too much chocolate.If your looking to blame anyone it was Uncle Milton who carved up the Corp into little pieces,sold it and divided up the assets for the shareholders.Back in merger days the path was written to where we are today.With all that clout and buisness sense you should have demanded share equity for what the pension was owed in order to have the real vioce of influence at board meetings.Westjet was at the door knocking at merger and your influence was used to get little jets and keep jobs to compete against in a market which brought us full circle to today.You go ahead and rally to a cause of change in the political world and we will see where the librals that sold you or the NDP socialst (Quebec waitresses) will take our country that you served and protected..

[Mig29]

I know they are our competition, but this is worth few minutes to cool of hot heads here:)

[Martin Tamme]

Sorry Rockie blaming Harper for your mess is like blaming the easter bunny because your wife is fat from too much chocolate.

Question:
If we presently had a minority Government, do you believe that we would still be in this mess? Would Air Canada not have negotiated in good faith a long time ago if they didn't have the guarantee of Government interference?

I don't believe Air Canada would ever have contemplated locking out its pilots if they didn't have the guarantee of the Government being on-side. A settlement would have been reached a long time ago.

[BverLuver]

Where do you get the idea I or any of the other pilots want to abandon our customers? Who was it that guaranteed there would be no work stoppage over Christmas or March break? Us perhaps? Who was it that locked out the pilots at the very beginning of March break? Think real hard about that one and tell me again who gives a shit about the customers. By the way RCR, if Rovinescu gets his way with our scope clause your job is toast as well.

We get the idea from you Rockie, remember me, one insignificant customer that was affected by your labour problems, you told me flat out to go to Westjet because I don't matter to you. So I did and man what a refreshing change!

And it didn't take much thinking to realise it was the government, not the pilots as you suggest (that's the best one I have heard in a long time, thanks for that) that prevented a work stoppage.

Keep reaching Rockie.

BL

[BverLuver]

Sorry Rockie blaming Harper for your mess is like blaming the easter bunny because your wife is fat from too much chocolate.

Question:
If we presently had a minority Government, do you believe that we would still be in this mess? Would Air Canada not have negotiated in good faith a long time ago if they didn't have the guarantee of Government interference?

I don't believe that Air Canada would ever have contemplated locking out its pilots if they didn't know the Government was on-side?

Impossible to know. If the NDP had taken power would we be figuring out how to get the country out of bankruptcy from illogical and irresponsible social spending?

BL

[Martin Tamme]

I'm not talking about the NDP taking power; I'm merely talking about the Conservatives not having absolute power.

[BverLuver]

I'm not talking about the NDP taking power; I'm merely talking about the Conservatives not having absolute power.

As I said its an impossibility to know as was demonstrated with my question. You can't ask hypothetical questions and get upset with a hypothetical question asked back. Why don't we deal with what we know and what we have instead of trying to conjure sympathy with fallacy.

BL

[Rockie]

Bver

I never told you to go to Westjet, I said to say hi to Tony Clement when you got there. Glad you're enjoying the experience. They're a good airline that believes in taking care of their employees knowing the employees will pass it on to the customer. A smart guy like you must surely know all about their personnel management philosophy....right?

[Fanblade]

And it didn't take much thinking to realise it was the government, not the pilots as you suggest (that's the best one I have heard in a long time, thanks for that) that prevented a work stoppage.

Keep reaching Rockie.

BL

Well as we can all see by the posts from RCR & BL, it is true. Perception is reality. The first casualty of war is the truth. The interesting thing about the two is one is a customer and one is a fellow AC employee. In all likelihood their "take" on events is shared by many if not most. U

I think lumping ACPA in with the IAMAW is in large part the reason. It was skillfully played by the government. I also think the worst offender with regard to the truth was the press. When the government and corporation can collude to the degree they have with the cover of the press? Something is very wrong. How much of this goes on around us? How many times have you or I been fooled into believing the perception we are being fed rather than the truth?

You can tell the public ACPA was not going to do job action until you are blue in the face. They won't believe you.

You can tell them that the government and AC became so impatient with our unwillingness to start job action they concocted a lock out instead. They wont believe you.

You can tell them the pilot sick out was fabricated by AC. You could show them the stats as proof You could point to the fact that AC dropped it. They won't believe you.

You could tell them what happened to Aveos was deliberate. They wont believe you.

You could tell them it is AC that wont negotiate. They won't believe you.

You could tell them our demands are very modest. They won't believe you.

You could tell them the final selection arbitration with in C33 is worded to give the company anything it asks for. Its not an arbitration. It is just theatre for public optics. They won't believe you.

You can tell them the changes AC seeks from ACPA will see thousands of jobs lost. They will think you are spinning something in your favor and won't believe you.

So what am I saying? Don't know. Its the truth. What do we do now?

We have been f##€&+ by Government and corporate collusion. They have even spun the events leading to it against us.



Accept it. Its the truth with no spin.

[Rockie]

I will not accept it. Totally aside from the unconscionable theft of our rights as Canadians by our own government and lies they tell to justify it, from a strictly corporate point of view I would rather go down swinging than do nothing except say "I told you so" afterward. Either way there is little doubt that between the corporate raiders and an ideologically blinded government Air Canada is finished.

[Fanblade]

Rockie,

You will have to forgive my bluntness. I agree this behavior in unconscionable. Yet here we are. The question still remains. What do we do about it.

By the way I don't think AC is finished. I think AC has sold the government on a plan to restructure the corporation outside of CCAA. To this end the government will play back stop. Labor laws? Cancelled. Air Canada participation Act wrt Heavy maintenance? Cancelled.

Our scope is in the way. It is about to get cut into tiny little pieces. Cancelled.

So what do we do about it? Strike? Its now illegal. I can't see ACPA sanctioning it. Individuals would just expose themselves to becoming the poster boy for corporate retaliation if they did it on their own.

So what what exactly do you mean by go down swinging?

Face it. We are f#&+$#. We will get what Calin decides we can have. No more.

[BverLuver]

Rockie has a hard time accepting that his ideals differ from those of others and will not capitulate to any degree. However, he also can't understand that people who do not share his beliefs will not capitulate to him. The "democracy" that you so badly seek Rockie, allows the people to have different views. The DEMOCRATICALLY elected (despite every dirty left wing trick and excuse as to why/how they were elected) Conservative MAJORITY government is at the helm and doing what it feels best for our entire country, not a few thousand individuals. Why don't you work with what you have and secure a course of action instead of complaining about what you don't have and get nowhere? You lost your ability to strike, they lost their ability to lock you out, man this is just so boring hearing this same whining, next step move on!!

BL

[Rockie]

Everything you say is spot on fanblade, I just don't believe in getting mugged and raped without making the muggers and rapists pay a heavy price in return. Otherwise it makes it too easy for them to keep doing it.

Bver

Democratic and labour rights in Canada are not subject to the whims of any tinpot dictator of a PM. Neither are free and fair elections.

[Fanblade]

You lost your ability to strike, they lost their ability to lock you out, man this is just so boring hearing this same whining, next step move on!!

BL

Rockie,

Don't bite. He is an ass. Look at the date BL first posted. Coincident?

So Mr BverLuver. Politician? Union hater? AC management? Don't bother answering. I also have the right not to believe a word you say.

And I don't. As fun as tormenting us has been.............

[BverLuver]

You lost your ability to strike, they lost their ability to lock you out, man this is just so boring hearing this same whining, next step move on!!

BL

Rockie,

Don't bite. He is an ass. Look at the date BL first posted. Coincident?

So Mr BverLuver. Politician? Union hater? AC management? Don't bother answering. I also have the right not to believe a word you say.

And I don't. As fun as tormenting us has been.............

I am sorry you think I have been just trying to torment you. Not at all my intention nor has it been fun in the least. All of these issues have affected my ability to conduct business in the most effective and efficient manner which affects my bottom line and therefore I have a personal stake in this mess. For the record, I have also written letters to the company sharing this same viewpoint and anger at their lack of progress, negotiation in good faith and assistance in smooth travel planning and execution. There are 2 sides to everything and sometimes 3 or 4 which is what I have been trying hard to open your eyes too. Did I do it in an effective way, maybe not, but they are my personal viewpoints and feelings none the less.

As for the date, there is 0 coincidence whatsoever to anything. I was a long time lurker and decided to throw an opinion into a few threads and had no intention of getting into this debate until it affected me personally, my family and my business which I was hoping it wouldn't. But it did and here we are. As for your list of who I am and your right to not believe anything I say, I absolutly agree but I am only 1 of those things, I will let you choose which one.

BL

[Rollercoaster Rider]

Everyone has a right to thier own opinion based on thier own experience in life. Open debate is how we see if holes exist in our own perceptions of events.I only tried to piont out that todays reality took a merger and a ccaa and close to two decades to evolve. Not one evil CEO or Government conspiring against the mighty ACPA.This was a situation evolving because of shortsitedness of us all and if we dont like it ,walk away with your sanity before its too late. You cant fight city hall with desension from within..Did I tell lies in my last post? I never saw any retort of any pionts made?

[Big Pistons Forever]

There is an excellent book just out about how Allan Mulally saved Ford. When he took over the company was drowning in debt, with out of control costs for both people and production processes and was probably weeks away from chapter 11. The first thing he did was totally restructure and streamline management.

Aircrew costs are less then 4% of Air Canada's total cost. You guys and gals could work for free and the company would still have an uncompetitive cost structure. But cutting salaries is easy for poor managers. Having the stones and vision to remake your company from the top down takes a great manager, and Air Canada doesn't have any great managers.

The problem is AC pilots still need a decent deal.

But (No 1) to get in front of the company steam roller you have to present credible arguments not to the passengers, but to the company investors and to the government.This IMO has to start with a counter offer that ties money to productivity and makes a compelling case of value (ie revenue production in the case of pilots) for money.

But (No 2) your offer has to be supported by all the pilots. The current in fighting is killing your case.

But (No 3) Air Canada does have a labour cost problem. It is paying too much for unskilled labour. FA, CSR, Ramp, Baggage and other support staff salary costs are a big part of the reason why Air Canada has a too high CASM and unlike pilots and AME's they are replaceable. I will be very politically incorrect here and say it is time ACPA calls a spade a bloody shovel.

Sadly I just don't see vision and fortitude in the pilot group to force the issue. The company will get what it wants, the WAWCON's of the bottom 75 % of the pilot group will take a big hit with the top 25 % taking a lesser hit and none of the structural problems of the company will be addressed........

[Mig29]

Relax people....spending your precious time arguing here wont' change one micron in what is already a lost battle....when I was half joking that ACPA should've put the foot down looooog time ago about the Sky-regional and this first TA1 and parked the birds for a couple of days....But there is no will, solidarity, courage or initiative amongst your members or even union. And that is clear as day and night! Everyone on the outside can see how deeply divided AC is and the truth is it wasn't all your fault. Many factors contributed to this long before many folks even worked there....I have a feeling people are still hoping that some miracle is going to happen and that pilots will be saved and that the government won't affect you. (ie. screw them - like they did the sales agents and f/a's)

It's like you guys are all arguing about that Concordia cruise-liner of the coast of Italy while the ship is slowly but surely sinking. We can all argue here and blame the Captain, hot blond who sat in his lap, Costa corporation, crew or even the currents or the star alignment that night ....but reality is it won't change the fact that the boat is still leaning on the rocks and drifting into the abyss....Times are changing, and just like issues that concern me (flypast 60??), I have not say or willpower to do anything about it - except to adopt to it as I've been told before.

There are three possibilities here now:

1. Hope for the best that Canada Industrial Relations Board will be fair and just when they sit with all the sides.

2. Expect the worst during CCAA.2 and pray that AC won't slam down all the contracts all the way to Tier 3 partners.

3. Work to rule/strike and hope that the damage you inflict to the company is going to outweigh the penalty the Gov't may/will impose on the union and it's members.

Until then, don't stress too much people and try not to insult each other unnecessarily as no one is please with this current situation. Employees, management, customers or the government...

[Mig29]

Sadly I just don't see vision and fortitude in the pilot group to force the issue. The company will get what it wants, the WAWCON's of the bottom 75 % of the pilot group will take a big hit with the top 25 % taking a lesser hit and none of the structural problems of the company will be addressed........

That's what I was saying. Well put BPF...

[Rockie]

Actually it's only been the last ten years that corporate management have given up trying to run a business and instead have turned this once proud and viable company into the mother of all ATM's. The goal for the last ten years has been to bleed every last ounce of life out of this place before casting it aside like so much garbage along with the employees, who honestly are the only people interested in AC's long term survival.

Our mistake was believing the lies that the concessions over the last decade were to help the company over the rough spot rather than filling the coffers of the corporate pirates in charge.

We don't believe anymore either in the corporate thieves or the government.

[Rollercoaster Rider]

agreed +1

[Rollercoaster Rider]

The decade before the last played as much a factor also.WARDAIR was the cream of the crop in thier day but are as dead today as AC will be in the next decade.Government played a big part in that , dont be fooled that Justin will take the Librals in any other direction of favor. Watch the media spin for the next round of politics.

[BverLuver]

Mig29, all that stuff is a sad reality, but it is the reality. Good luck!

BL