SELF-DESTRUCT -- PRESS

[Fanblade]

For me..........is the key.

Grandfathered pay? What about the person that eventually fills your spot?

What about the 320 F0 pay cuts in group pay?

There is no LCC. It was a diversion. What the company is looking for now is a vastly increased CPA system.

The LCC never existed. It was designed to sell pay increases through advancement. It was done to soften the impact on the lower half of the list. But it does not exist.

Go look at the latest offer from the company on Aeronet. They are still offering we fly LCC if it ever happens. It was a ruse.

[Fanblade]

JZA,

I say this to people all the time about TA1. Step back and look at it as if it had been deliberately negotiated with a fictional LCC.

The mainline groupings still exist.
The pay table is false.

Look who escaped the difficult changes within TA1 if the LCC was fictional.

With the exception of EMJ FO's? Every FO and RP position is a pay cut or at best status quo after granfathering. All captains saw raises. If you were really senior you got a 25k raise even if the LCC was fictional and your pension upped to 140k before it implodes on the rest of us.

Havin a hard time trustin.

[std by]

Too much water under the bridge...TA1 is long gone. CR has the hammer now thanks to the government envolvement. Fasten your seat belts...it's gonna be a rough one...

[Mig29]

I doesn't have to be rougher then right now guys....

all it takes is some SERIOUS unity amongst ACPA/IAMAW members and parking of the fleet for a couple of days....that's it. (only a couple of hundred ramp guys caused mayhem the other Friday...just imagine if there was a larger outrage)

Watch and you would have a totally new and renegotiated contract in.....a week or two max!

But that requires large cojonas on everyone's behalf....rare "item" there days

[TheStig]

Yes you are right.

At present the 320 pays a fair bit more if you are able to hold it during years 3 & 4. (in the 80s)

Keep in mind that generally speaking there are not very many guys/gals that can hold the "bus" with less than 4 years seniority...at the moment there are only 16 pilots.

Not true, since TA1 was rejected every Air Canada pilot could have held A320 FO on any of the equipment bids. In fact, the past bid (11-03) had A320 FO vacancies unfilled in YUL, YYZ, and YVR.

[Takeoff OK]

Can someone please post the contents of the letter? Since it is obviously not sanctioned by ACPA, nor is it an official internal memo, I see no legal reason not to share with all of us. It would be very interesting to see what the top of the list is trying to convince the rest of you to do.

[TAT]

To all AC pilots out there that are even considering following these traitors : Our new team elected by us contain some of the players that exposed bw for the self-serving ignorant *** that he is. He didn't treat his members with respect when he was the MEC chair and he's not doing it now by taking the secret road to damaging our union. Our new elected members has direction from the majority of the membership they are well spoken and respectful. I have faith in them so should you. I would much rather be pounding pavement than have TA1 inflicted on us.

[JZA]

Not true, since TA1 was rejected every Air Canada pilot could have held A320 FO on any of the equipment bids. In fact, the past bid (11-03) had A320 FO vacancies unfilled in YUL, YYZ, and YVR.

...everyone could have held it...but most chose not too...hence there are 16 pilots at present with less than 4 years seniority occupying the right seat on the 320. The "majority" of pilots with less than 4 years seniority are EMJ FOs (followed second by 767 RPs)

[JZA]

even considering following these traitors

... ??? Those are some very harsh words and accusations. To my knowledge no one was ever formally accused, charged or what have you of anything. That rumor like so much other crap in the last year has been fueled by mob mentality, fear and social media.

I couldn't care less who is behind the latest campaign to present TA1 during FOS. The fact is if you take the time to read it and understand, (and turn off the conspiracy button) you will see that this contract is a lot better than what we have, and a hell of a lot better than what we are about to get given the direction of negotiations where they left off and the level of government interference.

[SilentMajority]

even considering following these traitors

... ??? Those are some very harsh words and accusations. To my knowledge no one was ever formally accused, charged or what have you of anything. That rumor like so much other crap in the last year has been fueled by mob mentality, fear and social media.

I couldn't care less who is behind the latest campaign to present TA1 during FOS. The fact is if you take the time to read it and understand, (and turn off the conspiracy button) you will see that this contract is a lot better than what we have, and a hell of a lot better than what we are about to get given the direction of negotiations where they left off and the level of government interference.

You are 100% correct. Unfortunately it is probably too late to stop this impending train wreck. The company smells blood, the gov't wants Air Canada "solved" once and for all and the arb. will be forced to follow the guidance terms which are clearly tilted against us.

[Mig29]

Pilots at Spanish airline Iberia (ICAG.L) have called 30 days of strikes in a dispute over the start-up of a low-cost carrier they see as a threat to jobs and conditions.
MADRID | Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:16am EDT
(Reuters)

Pilots say the launch of Iberia Express contravenes deals struck when Iberia and British Airways merged to form International Airlines Group.

IAG and Iberia believe starting the new airline is the only way to make the loss-making Spanish unit profitable.

European airlines are battling soaring fuel prices, weak demand from cash-strapped passengers and the burden of new taxes on air travel as well as fierce competition from low-cost carriers such as Ryanair (RYA.I).

Iberia Express is designed to complement Iberia's more profitable long-haul flights, flying to 17 national and European destinations including Dublin, Naples and Amsterdam. Iberia estimates it will attract 2.5 million passengers.

Iberia pilots will strike every Monday and Friday from April 9 to July 20, their union SEPLA said on Tuesday.

"The company intends to divert 40 planes from the main group to the new subsidiary, which would mean the elimination of 8,000 jobs," SEPLA said.

Pilots held 12 days of strikes between December and March but called off strike action after both parties agreed to mediation. Talks broke down on Sunday.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

.....sounds familiar doesn't it????

[LeadingEdge]

To anyone considering TA1... 30% of the fleet would be leaving for the LCC (Ultimately). In the end, this is a massive down bid. Take the time to think about where you will be forced reduced to in this scenario. The Co would have accelerated all aircraft to LCC, and ignored the contractual provisions governing aircraft flow through. The economics of two separate fleets of the same types make this an absolute certainty. Everybody on the 767/A320 would be forced reduced to more junior positions or LCC - take your pick. Grandfathering was based upon APOS, so kiss your raise goodbye.

LCC is another Jazz, and CPA, at the mainlines expense - sell it off and disappear with the loot. Do you think that the mainline can make your pension payments with 30% less revenue??? Do the math, if they can make the payments now, how on earth do you expect them to honour your pension (that you have already paid for) with 30% less revenue. The model is a direct transfer of 30% of general revenues to LCC.

Add to this the 6% reduction in pension every two years... This is being sold to you from the highest levels of AC, ask yourself why...

[mbav8r]

Whats the matter, don't you trust Calin. I'm pretty sure I likened him to a wolf in sheeps clothing when a bunch of AC pilots were saying this time is different. Here's a reminder of the guy you thought was building bridges and a company.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz1T90LA ... creen&NR=1

[sanjet]

Whats the matter, don't you trust Calin. I'm pretty sure I likened him to a wolf in sheeps clothing when a bunch of AC pilots were saying this time is different. Here's a reminder of the guy you thought was building bridges and a company.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz1T90LA ... creen&NR=1

Wow, first time watching this video. Crossed arm, leaned forward on chair... Pure signs of him being uncomfortable and obviously not being sincere in this conversation. Ask any body language expert.

[JZA]

AC will start a Low Cost whether the employee group likes it or not. It's really irrelevant whether we like the idea or not. At this stage in the game (FOS) the most important thing is to get that flying. TA1 is better than what's coming down the pipe from whether there is an LCC or not.

Look at Qantas/Jetstar...the Qantas pilots chose not to secure the flying...Qantas is a fraction of it's former self and Jetstar is growing fast.

Look at Lufthansa/Gemanwings...the Lufthansa pilots DID secure the flying...both airlines are growing and successful and the pilot group has the right to move between the two groups.

TA1 is not perfect. It is however at this point our only chance to avoid getting totally f@#ked. Put pride and emotion aside for the moment and think about it seriously.

[ratherbee]

all NewHires are treated to 4 years from $42 - $60/hour

... The actual proposed pay Rates for New hires in the TA1 in 2012 were as follows:

Year 1: $49,800
Year 2: $54,980
Year 3: $63,270
Year 4: $71,560

JZA,

I think your numbers are a little out maybe because of the annual pay raises. The numbers I received, based on 83 hours per month, for a pilot hired in 2011 are:

2011: $48,156
2012: $54,760
2013: $64,281
2014: $74,152

then if you went formula on the EMJ FO position: $98,644

That's alot better than the expired contract from the 2003 CCAA.

edited for 83 hours

[biatch]

98K + for an EMJ F/O. Wow. No wonder everyone on here is saying the EMJ's are going CPA. What's the average Jazz RJ F/O making? 65K? I'm sure Sky's retired AC pilots can do it even cheaper!

[becks]

[quote]I'm sure Sky's retired AC pilots can do it even cheaper!
/quote]

After Sky gets the burritos I plan on starting a company to undercut them by paying 500 hr noobs half rate! I'll make millions!!!!!!
After all it only holds a hundred people so the pilots don't need to be experienced or payed well or given decent working conditions.
ONLY 777's, and 787's deserve that kind of money and treatment.
THE LESS IT HOLDS THE LESS THE PAY
(right jazz guys )

[dhc2pilot]

Friday the 13th....we will be heard!

[Morry Bund]

Friday the 13th....we will be heard!

The rumblings that I have been picking up concerning job action this Friday are not comforting. Before individuals attempt any industrial action to show their displeasure with the current state of affairs or attempt to teach a lesson to either or both the senior management of the airline and/or the federal government, they would do well to refresh their memories regarding two disparate significant historical events. The outcome of each was disastrous.

First, the maiden voyage of the Titanic.

Second, the U.S. Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (PATCO) strike in 1981.

The wisdom of Machiavelli is apt: "The harm that we do to an individual must be such that we need not fear his vengeance."

[tbaylx]

Well you can't really bring in military pilots to replace the AC pilots like Reagan did with the ATCO's in the 80's. And do you really think Harper has the same big brass ones Reagan did to pull that off? If pilots don't come to work, they aren't getting replaced any time soon and the flying stops. Really that simple.

Not saying it's a good idea as much as i'd like to see Raitt having the bird flipped in her direction, it wouldn't help the situation much.

[Morry Bund]

Well you can't really bring in military pilots to replace the AC pilots like Reagan did with the ATCO's in the 80's. And do you really think Harper has the same big brass ones Reagan did to pull that off? If pilots don't come to work, they aren't getting replaced any time soon and the flying stops. Really that simple.

I beg to differ. It is not that simple at all. How many pilots do you think will stay off the job and for how long if they face a $10,000 per day fine, or a criminal conviction for contempt of court that could seriously interfere with their ability to subsequently fly into the U.S.A.?

[LVLChange]

Unity=good... But man!

People have kids. Kicking and screaming kids gets old as a parent. Eventually, you realize its only about the testing of the waters and really, just trying to get another step further.

Parents response, Im not going to listen. Unless you can prove me being unfair/mean etc... We all have to live together after all... and one does pay the bills plus kiddo's only range from 5-12 yrs. Fair yes? We will always love you LOL!

Run away hide in your room... and not have discussion, see ya. I know you will come out of your room when your hungry. Then, Im gonna be alot harder on you then if you just talked. Drama is no excuse for bad behavior. So you better have a plan when you come out of the room.

In your comment "they'll listen Friday the 13th"

Are you the parent or the child?

Just a question.

[Rockie]

I beg to differ. It is not that simple at all. How many pilots do you think will stay off the job and for how long if they face a $10,000 per day fine, or a criminal conviction for contempt of court that could seriously interfere with their ability to subsequently fly into the U.S.A.?

Probably no pilots will stay off the job in those circumstances, but do you want that pilot flying your airplane either as a company, passenger or a government?

There is a reason the collective bargaining process exists. It results in a mutually agreed upon contract that both parties can live with resulting in peace for the duration provided one of those parties doesn't violate the contract. This isn't new. Decades of practice have proven it works. But now the conservatives have reversed the clock 150 years and think things are going to get better.

Forced servitude went out a long time ago because it doesn't work. Thinking labour peace is going to be bought by legislation is a mugs game and typical of the sledge hammer approach to governing Harper relies on completely.

[vic777]

I beg to differ. It is not that simple at all. How many pilots do you think will stay off the job and for how long if they face a $10,000 per day fine, or a criminal conviction for contempt of court that could seriously interfere with their ability to subsequently fly into the U.S.A.?

Obviously as Benjamin Franklin observed, ""We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately". Any back to work agreement must state that there will be no punitive action against the "Freedom Fighters". You don't come back without that guarantee. Game, Set and Match! If one member is fired, everyone downs tools. Who has the power? It's not Harper!