Air Canada cancels some flights amid pilot protest - Apr 13

[Rockie]

And a valiant effort at that but in war one must also know when to surrender as well. At this point fighting for your jobs may cost you your job. For now any continued "fighting" will only hurt the employee groups in my opinion.

I'll repeat this again since the message doesn't seem to be getting through. My job, and that of pretty much every other Air Canada employee (with the exception of certain managers and executives) will be outsourced to a separate LCC and Canada's version of Jetstar anyway if Rovinescu is allowed to complete his plan. Those jobs are gone...pfffft.

I will not "surrender" my job.

I will also not apologize for your inconvenience, or Bverlover's, and I will not be dissuaded by short sighted people who neither understand the issues or see the long term implications of what Rovinescu and this government are doing.

[teacher]

Even when you surrender you can set terms to ensure that you survive. I agree that your and everyone else's jobs are worth fighting for but in this case any further job action will not achieve that goal. You've lost the batte against management, you're taking the government to court over the back to work legislation which is a good start but sick offs, wildcat strikes and slow taxiing at this point in the game will not help protect your job. Emotion is what's driving these actions not logic. You think making AC lose money will affect manager pay or bring the company back to the table? Yah, sure, the CCAA court table. AC has seen your bet and raised you and you're out of money.

My uninformed and amateur advice is to go back, make sure AC Crews fly LCC flights with AC pilots and make the best of a bad offer. CCAA is not the answer as you will prove to the courts that AC in it's current state cannot continue on this course and you will have sped up your demise.

Do I think you ae fighting a good fight YES! Do I feel you folks were treated unfairly YES! Are AC management over paid for the garbage job they do running an airline YES. Should you continue to fight YES but carefully. In the mean time look at where ACPA and the rest of the employee groups stand. AC is losing money and at this point you all may be lucky to keep what you currently have.

That's why I say it was a valiant effort but you guys were out gunned as most groups have been. You can still set the terms of your surrender or at least make a strategic withdrawal.

[CanadianEh]

You think making AC lose money will affect manager pay or bring the company back to the table? Yah, sure, the CCAA court table. AC has seen your bet and raised you and you're out of money.

This is what makes the whole thing so disheartening, AC is using the money that IT'S OWN workers bring in for the company to pay consultants to figure out to outsource jobs, strategists to try and bust the unions and executives with no motivation to improve Air Canada beyond outsourcing.

Look at American Airlines, they outsourced tons of flying to American Eagle and other subsidiaries and paid their pilots $19,000 a year. The company still ended up going bankrupt and the pilots lost everything. Meanwhile, Southwest is actually making a profit and paying their pilots the best in the industry.

Air Canada management is simply just trying something new that will siphon more cash away from the main company, enrich more managers and other trough feeders (consultants, lawyers, etc.) and help perpetuate the race to the bottom for the actual employs who create all the wealth.

I think that's worth fighting against, but as Teacher said, the fight needs to be well planned and calculated. I am reminded of this quote from the Art of War:

"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."

Best of luck to all involved. Fight the good fight and above all, fight the SMART fight.

[teacher]

To quickly add to my previous post there are many ways to fight a war. ACPA and the other unions have taken the public blunt force route.

Not so public things to do is snag everything no matter where you are or what the issue is. Never let anything slide for the sake of on time performance. Follow SOPs and the CARsto the letter. Do not accept over time, drafts or any other flying other than what you are blocked. If you get called for a draft, well, You have childcare issues or you had bailey's in your coffee or are not rested, sorry. It's not illegal and not public but the company gets the point. Same effect, no negative press. They can't force you to do something illegal. Fight the smart fight. It's not as flashy but can achieve the same result.

In the public eye there is a big difference between the flight is delayed due to mechanical problems and the flight is cancelled due to pilots booking off. Joe public is still pissed off but they're not pissed off at you.

[BverLuver]

CanadianEh,

That quote is so very poignant and fitting to the main point I have been trying to make the entire time. Everything the union has done to this point is reactionary in he heat of the moment. There is seemingly no strategic plan for today, tomorrow, next week, next month etc. They are just waiting for the companies next move and "hoping" they can get back to the table. In the meantime, the company has a strategy has set their tactics in motion and is destroying the union in the court of public opinion and in the minds of government officials.

BL

[BverLuver]

Teacher,

If you read Rockies posts and my posts earlier in this thread you will see that they do not believe the traveling public has anything to do with their further success or even their survival in this mess. I happen to think the exact opposite. I think it is the golden key to their future to have the public on their side. They get this, or even significantly improve the perceptions of the union and they will fight the fight with and for you! They will get free lobbying. It will happen, it always does. As much as I dislike professional protesters, there are none more vocal than the left leaning citizens.

BL

[teacher]

+1

Agreed, never forget who actually pays your bills either, and they know it too. If you do the best you can despite the "problems you are having" they will respect you or at the vey least not blame you.

[CID]

Here's an analogy that I think is valid.

Air Canada is like Eatons or Sears. Old companies struggling to adapt their outdated business model with the burden of a unionized work force with very advanced contracts which are quite difficult to adjust. They will eventually lose market share as their employees take the "scorched" earth attitude and management unsuccessfully tries to win concessions from employees to make the operation sustainable.

Westjet is like Walmart. A savvy low cost operator that adopted a very successful (Southwest) model. They appeal to the present day "no frills" market but poke around smaller markets with discount prices in an attempt to establish themselves but end up just draining the bank accounts of smaller regionals while they are in town. Then they occasionally pull our after they realize there ins't enough profit leaving the smaller regionals to recover. (Sort of what Walmart does to small businesses)

The rest of the airlines in Canada try to provide service to niche markets while providing their communities with financial benefits like jobs and the purchase of things like fuel, hotel rooms, real estate, etc.

So as Sears and Eatons and even The Bay and Zellers drift off into the sunset and go under, Walmart is quite happy to provide cheap alternatives with a more efficient workforce and the corner grocer will continue to ride the roller coaster between rags and riches as Walmart threatens his bottom line by selling everything under they sun 24 hours a day in air conditioned comfort. Yah, the grocery store may eventually be a boarded up eyesore and the grocer will have to fire his staff until of course Walmart pulls out.....

[BTyyj]

I simply cannot understand how getting the public on the side of the pilots would help this matter in any way. The average passenger will only complain until they're at their destination, then they won't give a crap. How would getting the flying public on their side help the pilots at all? Hell, AC could lower pilot salaries to zero and the flying public would still find something to complain about.

Many people seem to be vowing never to ever fly with AC again, but I wonder how many stay true to this when they need to get to Zurich and their only other choice is a routing through Chicago.

The passengers don't pay the pilot's bills, the company does. The passenger pays the company for a service, and the company pays their workers accordingly to complete that service. The issue now is that too much of that money is going towards an extremely heavy top-end, while the true workers are getting their salaries cut and job's outsourced. Since AC has been in the red for some time, I would assume that not all of the pilot's salaries are coming directly from the pocket of the paying customer.

[BverLuver]

I simply cannot understand how getting the public on the side of the pilots would help this matter in any way. The average passenger will only complain until they're at their destination, then they won't give a crap. How would getting the flying public on their side help the pilots at all? Hell, AC could lower pilot salaries to zero and the flying public would still find something to complain about.

Many people seem to be vowing never to ever fly with AC again, but I wonder how many stay true to this when they need to get to Zurich and their only other choice is a routing through Chicago.

Frosty,

Therein lies your problem, you are failing to realize and utilize what could be your greatest resource. Government is there to do what the people ask them to do. The people hate the Union right now and, as earlier stated earlier, in their minds YOU are the ones standing in their way of $99 fares YYZ-YVR, YOU are the ones that have caused their flights to be cancelled, and YOU are the ones that make all their vacation and travel plans full of turmoil, the company has told them so through all the media outlets. Like the sheep they are, the people believe them. They go to the government and say, we don't want to support this any longer, get rid of their "protections". And what does the union do in response? They write a letter to the shareholders complaining and telling them that their share values are going down, really, WTF?

The people may be willing to come back, but what if there is nothing to come back too? Plan for the future of them coming back, but concentrate on the now to get over this hurdle. You don't have time to just keep poking the bear, you need action with a new strategy and tactics as the ones used so far have only dug your position deeper making it increasingly difficult to find mutually agreeable terms.

The strategy, or lack thereof, hasn't worked so far so maybe it's time to go in a different direction don't you think? The trouble with unions is they completely object to change and, like TC, will never admit to mistakes, so the ego and experience of the collective group ends up being their failing rather than the resolve.

BL

[MacStork]

WOW! What a thread! There is a lot to think about here ...... and I hope some of you are starting to think.
This reminds me of watching the Masters ....... there are the guys like Phil Michelson and there are guys like Tiger Woods. They are all playing golf. Some do it with class and some don't. But it is still golf.
I recall that Milton gutted AC and stuffed over a hundred million in his jeans ....... a very greedy act, Now it appears the Rovinescu is doing the same and the Conservative government is quite happy with that. The Conservative government is also happy to remove many Union rights that have been fairly negotiated in the past. Maybe it is time to get politically involved and direct your frustrations collectively to where they will do the most good.
Just my thoughts ....

[BTyyj]

BL,

I understand your position. I do want to preface my post by saying that I am NOT a pilot at AC, just a simple observer.

That being said, it seems to me the pilotos can go two ways in regards to this debacle, and a small minority of them have chosen to go a way that isn't beneficial to you, the paying customer. It also seems that either way includes consequences and has a small chance of being successful. It's understandable that customers are upset, but it is also understandable how some of the pilots and other workers have reacted to this illegitimate rejective of collective bargaining. When people get mad, they will do something stupid. That's a fact of life, no matter who it is or where they work. Obviously the majority of AC pilots, as well as the union, didn't agree with this action, but AC management didn't do much to stop it either. I have heard from a number of AC pilots on reserve who were not called in to pick up the cancelled flights.

You're right; the government is there to do what the people ask them to do, and people will ALWAYS want cheaper fares while reaping as much benefits as possible. The flying customer doesn't logically pay for their ticket, they just buy whoever sells it for the cheapest. They will never vote in a new government because they support AC, and I guarantee you that. The only other option is for the pilot to pressure AC by strike, which they were revoked the ability to do.

The unions response to the shareholders make sense to me. Now that the AC is privatized, the shareholders have quite a bit of control over the company. As it seems like the management wants to get as much money out of the airline and run for the hills, and the government is supporting them, the shareholders who have an invested interest in the airline seem like the logical next choice to stop this fiasco.

As for a change in strategy, the pilots could go back to working as they have. The average passenger won't see a difference and won't support them in any way, and when the pay cuts and outsourcing come, all the pilots will be able to do is sit back and watch. When you pay peanuts you get monkeys. Soon you will have people who otherwise would be flipping burgers flying your planes. Does this sound like a good alternative? All to save a few bucks, right?

[BverLuver]

Frosty,

Sorry, I thought you were an AC pilot, my apologies.

Also understand, I am clearly not an AC pilot, but am a professional pilot in a corporation myself. I also have business interests that necessitate a significant amount of air travel. However, my position although initially it was, is not about what conveniences me personally. I have made the switch to WJ and it has worked out very well for me so far. The benefits to me personally in their success or failure at this point is of no perk or consequence to me directly. Instead I have turned my focus as a fellow pilot and business professional to offering a 3rd or 4th side to the argument. One that may not have been considered or taken seriously in the hopes of offering constructive persepctive for a greater common objective. I, like everyone else here, do not want to see 1 pilot, rampie, CSR, F/A etc lose their job or suffer from poor working conditions, but perspective is critical. Have I done this in an eloquent and non-emotional manner? No, I doubt it, but I also would not take back a word I have said, unless I mistakenly made personal remarks that were derogatory to specific people. This I had aplogized for earlier and not how I like to represent myself.

I "speak" from an outside perspective that the company seems to be seizing upon while the unions (not just pilots) ignores or berates, and look who is coming out on top of this mess smelling like roses! All I have said from the beginning, is that making the people more angry and allowing the company to manipulate their mindset without response will take the Unions further from their objective and make it more difficult to hold onto any shred of their current lifestyle.

This is the publics perspective. I speak with many people that are outside the bubble of aviation on a daily basis about this topic, and this is the feedback I get. It is not solely my opinion. So, if that is of no help to the union then so be it. If my input is completely fabricated or false in the eyes of the union, then I will be happy to not spend another minute giving them this information and go have a coffee on the deck with my wife.

BL

[Rockie]

To quickly add to my previous post there are many ways to fight a war. ACPA and the other unions have taken the public blunt force route.

Not so public things to do is snag everything no matter where you are or what the issue is. Never let anything slide for the sake of on time performance. Follow SOPs and the CARsto the letter. Do not accept over time, drafts or any other flying other than what you are blocked. If you get called for a draft, well, You have childcare issues or you had bailey's in your coffee or are not rested, sorry. It's not illegal and not public but the company gets the point. Same effect, no negative press. They can't force you to do something illegal. Fight the smart fight. It's not as flashy but can achieve the same result.

We have been doing all of this and more for months now. The one thing we aren't doing that someone mentioned is taxiing slowly. It is all for naught because the company doesn't care. They have the government in their corner and they are going for broke proven by the fact they fast tracked the negotiating process to where we are without making any effort whatsoever to actually negotiate. The lockout was a pre-planned act that Duncan Dee's good pal Lisa Raitt used to trigger back to work legislation and forced arbitration. Read the legislation and tell me it wasn't a railroad job with one outcome already predetermined.

The tactics that you mention, and that we have been doing for a long time now would work in a normal situation. This isn't a normal situation. We do not have the time to make them work and the company knows it. Rovinescu could not care less because he has big brother driving the show. Did you know the company fabricated the first supposed sick out? Their own figures show no more people booked off that weekend than the year before. Did you know the company has mysteriously picked up the speed of all our flights recently after years of slowing down in the interest of saving fuel? Why the sudden disinterest in saving fuel?

We are doing everything you suggested (thank you for those by the way), but they're not working because the government has changed the paradigm grotesquely in the company's favour.

What else can we do?

If you read Rockies posts and my posts earlier in this thread you will see that they do not believe the traveling public has anything to do with their further success or even their survival in this mess.

That is patently false. We fully recognize that without our customers there is no airline. All of our press releases have clearly indicated our desire to isolate the customer from this as much as possible and our actions to date have backed that sentiment up. It is not just bullshit sound bites like the company is putting out - remember they're the ones who locked us out at the very beginning of March break. Either they're the ones who don't care about the customer or locking us out was a cynical part of the plan with full knowledge of how the government would immediately respond. Which is it in your opinion?

We have a right to strike. Left alone the real threat of a strike focuses both party's to achieving a mutually agreed upon settlement in 98% of the cases (CLC statistics). If a strike does actually happens it is usually short and sharp, which actually causes much less of a disruption in the end and then everybody gets back to normal.

The governments brainless, idiotically ideological interference in a normal labour negotiation has caused a far more damaging prolongation of this mess. This would all have been over by now and we would not be having this discussion. If the company had cared even a little bit about labour peace they would tell the government to keep their incompetent meddling noses out of it and would be at the negotiating table right now.

Deny people their rights and circumvent normal labour negotiation like this and what's happening now is an all too predictable result.

Instead of beating up the employees who are at the very bottom of the food chain and have absolutely no control over this agenda, why don't you take your opinions and dissatisfaction with how this is playing out and address it to the two entities who can actually do something about it?

[BverLuver]

Instead of beating up the employees who are at the very bottom of the food chain and have absolutely no control over this agenda, why don't you take your opinions and dissatisfaction with how this is playing out and address it to the two entities who can actually do something about it?

Rockie,

There are approximately 15 letters to AC Management and 12 to various government officials sent via registered mail with my signature on them each expressing my dissatisfaction and the shear madness that is this situation and each was written individually and personalized. They mimic the exact sentiments I have shared here from the customers point of view. Do not accuse me of not doing my part as a consumer, you are barking up the wrong tree.

I have repeatedly said, there are 4 side to this, The company, The Unions, The Government and the Consumer. Each has a vested interest in how this plays out. The blame game is worn out and gone! Starting today, with what you DO have, how do you move forward?

BL

[godsrcrazy]

This post just amazes me. Things like people blaming low cost air lines for their trouble. I just don't get it these low cost airlines with no frills travel are making Money all while their employes treat you with respect a smile on their face and give you better service on and off the aircraft.

What really baffles me as there are individuals on here that believe using paying customers as pawns will help their cause.

Over the past few months the traveling public has been used and abused by the employees of Air Canada with threats of strike and job action. The whole baggage handler fiasco really amazed me. 3 clowns follow Lisa Raitt thru the Toronto airport while being paid by air Canada wearing Air Canada clothing heckling this women. When they get suspended for 3 days WITH PAY according the news their fellow employees walk out leaving passengers stranded. Maybe I am the only one that sees something wrong with this.These people have no right to do that. I wonder how long it would take for these same employees to call the police if the passengers of Air Canada that have been effected by these clowns started following them around heckling them.


Regardless what people don't seem to understand is the simple math. No passengers = No cash flow = BANKRUPTCY = a pile of un employed people.

Everyone wants to blame the Canadian Government as if it doesn't protect air Canada. I didn't see any of these people on this forum bad mouth them when the stood up to Emirates and would not allow them to put on more flights to the middle east to compete against air Canada lucrative route. Mean while as retribution there were Canadian companies that w lost contracts and were asked to leave Dubai and many other places. Maybe the best thing the Canadian government should do is let Air Canada go on strike and totally open up the skys to foreign carriers to look after all their overseas and Canadian routes. I have $1 that says that within 1 year if they did this Air Canada would be all gone.

[RenegadeAV8R]

Maybe the best thing the Canadian government should do is let Air Canada go on strike and totally open up the skys to foreign carriers to look after all their overseas and Canadian routes.

Wishing for "open sky" where foreign carriers would be operating within Canada is probably a sure sign of mental illness.

You are not a canadian pilot, right?

[Rockie]

There are approximately 15 letters to AC Management and 12 to various government officials sent via registered mail with my signature on them each expressing my dissatisfaction and the shear madness that is this situation and each was written individually and personalized. They mimic the exact sentiments I have shared here from the customers point of view. Do not accuse me of not doing my part as a consumer, you are barking up the wrong tree.

I did not know that. I both apologize and thank you very much.

Starting today, with what you DO have, how do you move forward?

Very good question that I wish I knew the answer to. It does appear though from watching analysts on television and from reading comments on the site below that people want things back to normal and that the government and corporation hold the key to achieving that. Without a sea change in attitude in respect of not only the employees but the long term fortunes of Air Canada though (not proxy companies) we aren't going to get far.

I can tell you without a doubt that given a corporate leadership truly dedicated to the fortunes of THIS company and THESE employees you would be very surprised at the lengths we will go to make this company what it can be for everybody. There has to be trust first though and that will not happen with the current executive.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-cana ... u-fix.html

[godsrcrazy]

Maybe the best thing the Canadian government should do is let Air Canada go on strike and totally open up the skys to foreign carriers to look after all their overseas and Canadian routes.

Wishing for "open sky" where foreign carriers would be operating within Canada is probably a sure sign of mental illness.

You are not a canadian pilot, right?

Yes i am a Canadian pilot. As i mentioned before the same people screaming on this forum certainly didn't complain about the Canadian Government while they are protecting their profitable routes. Mean while the Air Canada flights go back and forth and some good people lost their Jobs in Dubai and other places because of the Government protecting Air Canada.

Then you have people like Frosty writing this
Many people seem to be vowing never to ever fly with AC again, but I wonder how many stay true to this when they need to get to Zurich and their only other choice is a routing through Chicago.

The only reason other routings are thru places like Chicago is because Air Canada is protected by the same Government the employees are raising hell about. And you want to talk about Mental illeness to me. As i said they should just let them go on strike and let the thing Die. I for one will not say i will never fly Air Canada. What i will say is if i have other choices i will take them as the employees and Union are so unstable at Air Canada that i will not jeopardize my plans to support them.

[Sparkfarmer]

Railroaded, absolutely not, being out played on the public chess board, without a doubt.

May I suggest you read up on the events leading up to where we are today. It has nothing to do with the public and everything to do with company and government actions with regard to labour practices and law.

Throwing out random suggestions without having an inner working knowledge of the union practices, finances and solidarity would be unreasonable and irresponsible and I don't think I would be privy to any of these anytime soon. So, What I have given is a broad starting point.

You've given nothing, and you don't need to know anything about the inner workings of a union or their finances. Furthermore anything to do with solidarity implies industrial action which you have already made your opinion on abundantly clear. I'm not interested in assuaging the public, I'm interested in getting the company to the table for the reasons I've already stated.

If you cannot offer suggestions and admittedly don't know anything about the inner workings of a union, their finances or solidarity could we at least ask you to temper your vitriol with that in mind?

I respectfully disagree on these points. If the company is the "enemy" than in this instance, the public is the sword. The company understands this it seems. If indeed there was a "sick-out", than this is a lesson these pilots (and you) have yet to learn. You've really given the company and the government the amunition they need to further there goals, and I have little doubt that this will come back to haunt. Its very sad to watch...

I for one am not a union guy. I do feel very strongly however that the government (Harper, Rait, whomever...) has overstepped its bounds here and is intentionally "union busting". It seems very unconstitutional to me. I back your right to labour action. But thats water under the bridge now isn't it? My suggestion to you would be for your unions to open up their collective coffers to challange the constitutionality of the the governments actions and step up its own P.R. campain.

[Mig29]

Just by reading your posts folks, I'm getting a headache and would have no problem booking off if I worked there! I can only imagine the amount of cockpit "chatter" going on there right now, and I'm honestly surprised that there are no increase in runway/taxiway or altitude incursions....But then again it goes to show the professionalism of the majority flying there.

In any case, the amount of stress at work you guys put up right now, and then going home and facing your families and trying to calm down the situation "pretending" everything is "alright" must be enormous! For that alone, I would call it a day. Not to piss off the company, government or especially the public - only to preserve my sanity and energy so that I can come to work the day after and operate my flights safely. That's all, honestly.

[Mig29]

By the way....you are not alone apparently.

Iberia pilots strike, 150 flights cancelled
REUTERS MADRID | Mon Apr 9, 2012 11:24am EDT
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/ ... 0N20120409

[sanjet]

Well said Mig29. I am really tired of all the "elites" thinking they know how to run an airline in these forums and call pilots "jokers". Pilots are not accountants, nor CEO's, they are employees just like any other part of an airline and employees need feel part of a team and be taken seriously.
The fundamental problem lies with management and their goal of creating the worst labor relations I have ever seen. VP's have been strictly trying to satisfy shareholders and not work within the company to create a proper work environment.
I believe that if management took a different route regarding the pension negotiation, and not relied on the government to always help out, Air Canada could very well have been one of the best airlines in its market if it was properly managed. Instead they threatened their own employees stating they would create a low cost carrier and were about to lock pilots out at the same time baggage handlers were about to strike. I sincerely believe if the pilots and other employees were approached the right way and were taken seriously, concessions would have been made in order to help out their employer. CEO's getting 5 million retention bonus for staying 3 years in a company don't help either.

Fundamentals of management:

"You put your employees first and if you take care of them, then they will take good care of you...Then your customers will come back, and your shareholders will like that, so it's really a unity."

Herb Kelleher, Southwest Airlines chairman
aka a profitable airline with the some of the highest paid 737 pilots in the industry.

[Gino Under]

I have no doubt the issues at Air Canada are best left to those most affected by this labour dispute. I won't for a minute pretend to know what those issues are, nor will I. I'm not an AC pilot so their internal company issues don't affect me. It is however, the potential fallout of what COULD happen that troubles me and I think it should concern each and every Canadian pilot beyond the surface concerns of these last few pages. This is not about taking sides, cheering for this airline over that one, or ACPA bashing nor should it be. It should be about the bigger picture.

If the AC pilots lose their battle to prevent management from starting another LCC. If other unions within AC strike and AC files bankruptcy protection, it could well mean the end of AC. So, what happens if Air Canada fails or disappears and why should it matter?

Unlike the old days, it matters.

Our government has made it perfectly clear it will not tolerate any disobedience on the part of Air Canada's (our only international carrier) employee group claiming the significant impact to our economy is the greater good. They have also made it clear they won't hesitate to take away this employee groups right to strike. All of which sets a dangerous tone and one of which I am personally against.

I am surprised if not somewhat shocked to learn that some senior Air Canada pilots have left or will be leaving for better opportunities overseas. I've never heard of senior pilots at AC quitting before. These cannot be easy decisions for those pilots who do leave, but I'm sure the work environment played some part in those decisions.

Any assumption on the part of AC management that it will find lots of pilots ready, willing and able to join their new LCC is fantasy. Canada doesn't have the numbers they are likely to need because not all of the pilots likely to be dumped if they fail will be keen to join a resurrected Air Canada. If they ever did go out of business who would step in to fill the gap? Westjet is not an international airline the size and stature of Air Canada. If there is a collapse of AC what is our government most likely to do?

Herein lies MY concern.

As I see it, they will be sold on the idea there IS a shortage of pilots in Canada and that will allow them to open the flood gate to foreign pilots. They've already shown their willingness to do so and it is unlikely they wouldn't allow it to happen in the mayhem that would surely follow a collapse of Air Canada.

This has disaster in the making written all over it and I would hope those of you reading and participating in this thread think about it in these terms. Should the use of foreign pilots ever become a solution in the days ahead any hope of a pilot career for Canadians just starting out will be in jeopardy as will the piloting profession in Canada itself.
If you think it's far fetched, just remember our military has already opened that floodgate and our government has indicated their willingness to do so as well by allowing it to happen at Sunwing and Canjet.

I'm over 60 so it really isn't going to affect me except for the fact I'll be alot more interested in who's at the controls.

To the Air Canada pilot group, as a fellow professional, I wish you the best of luck in your struggle.

Gino Under

[Cough Syrup]

AC has big issues, and I don't know how they'll get past them without something drastic happening...

- bloated executive bonuses.
- passengers that think they're 'entitled' to cheap-ass fares.
- flight attendants and baggage handlers that think they're worth more than they really are.