Petition against the practice of Temporary Foreign Pilots

[Gilles Hudicourt]

A petition, addressed to:

The Honorable Jason Kenney, P.C., M.P.
Citizenship and Immigration Canada
Ottawa, Ontario
K1A 1L1

and to

The Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration
Committees Directorate
6th Floor, 131 Queen Street
House of Commons
Ottawa, Ontario
K1A 0A6

against the practice by Immigration Canada of delivering Temporary Work Permits to foreign pilots in numbers exceeding those of Canadian pilots that are allowed, in exchange, to go work overseas.

We urge all pilots in Canada who are presently earning a living at the controls of an aircraft or who are training to do so in the future, to sign the petition: Student pilots, Private pilots, Commercial pilots and Airline pilots.

It is your jobs that the Minister of Immigration is giving away to foreigners.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/fore ... o%2BFriend

[scopiton]

signed
in all honesty, with a government cancelling pilot's rights to strike, I doubt they do a lot concerning this issue for 200 potential jobs only.

good luck.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

We'll see. The petition was put on line at 7 am this morning, just over 7 hours ago, and it already has over 300 signatures. At the very least it will catch their attention. If that doesn't do it, then we will find other methods that will.

[whipline]

I agree with you Gilles it should be a 1 for 1 reciprocal deal but do you want to see how fast I shoot down your argument as devils advocate?

Sunwing is it true you hired 200 foreign pilots this winter? Yes but because of those 200 we we able to create 700 jobs for Canadians. Ok, well done.

Your looking at this issue from purely a pilots prospective. Good luck but I can't see it working.

Out of curiosity what has ALPA Transat done about Canjet? Your laying off while they're bringing in foreigners to fly your pax?

[Pourdu_fun]

Sunwing is it true you hired 200 foreign pilots this winter? Yes but because of those 200 we we able to create 700 jobs for Canadians. Ok, well done.

That would also be truth with 200 canadian pilots!

Pourdu

[sanjet]

I agree with you Gilles it should be a 1 for 1 reciprocal deal but do you want to see how fast I shoot down your argument as devils advocate?

Sunwing is it true you hired 200 foreign pilots this winter? Yes but because of those 200 we we able to create 700 jobs for Canadians. Ok, well done.

As stated above, 200 pilots hired in Canada would have equally created the "700" jobs.
Here's my rebuttal:
You would have Canadians pilots working in Canada paying income taxes in Canada supporting families in Canada that spend money in Canada hence creating even more jobs in Canada.

I want to make it clear, I have no problems with foreigners coming in and working Canadian jobs as long as their is reciprocity, this simply isn't the fact. Try having Lufthansa Regional request CRJ type rated pilots from Canada, it would be denied instantly as this practice is banned in Germany!

[Bede]

What would happen if every country's pilots convinced their governments not to allow "foreigners"?

[.......]

What would happen if every country's pilots convinced their governments not to allow "foreigners"?

Are you willing fully missing the point, Bede? Or haven't you read enough on the issue?

[Bede]

I've read plenty about the issue. More "foreigners" are coming to Canada than other countries will let in. Blah, blah, blah.

I just find it ironic how everyone seems to be all for the efficient movement of labour and capital (free trade) until their personal interests are at stake. At that point it becomes free trade for everyone else and protectionism for me. You either support open borders or you do not- you can't have it both ways.

[sanjet]

What would happen if every country's pilots convinced their governments not to allow "foreigners"?

You would have a lot of airlines ground their fleet within countries that genuinely have a lack of experienced pilots. I can guarantee you those same countries will cancel your work permit the second they realise they have enough locally trained and experienced pilots.

Air India has started their project of phasing out expats by placing 250 hrs pilots in the right seat of their fleet, from A320's to 777's. Well see how that plays out in the next few years.

[.......]

I agree with you Gilles it should be a 1 for 1 reciprocal deal but do you want to see how fast I shoot down your argument as devils advocate?

Sunwing is it true you hired 200 foreign pilots this winter? Yes but because of those 200 we we able to create 700 jobs for Canadians. Ok, well done.

Your looking at this issue from purely a pilots prospective. Good luck but I can't see it working.

Out of curiosity what has ALPA Transat done about Canjet? Your laying off while they're bringing in foreigners to fly your pax?

Your point is moot, whipline...

First, because ALPA TSC through and with ALPA Canada are fighting it tooth and nail...

Second, AT has no say whatsoever (other than to fight the fight mentionned above) about the hiring practices of Canjet, who has a contract with Group Transat, which, BTW, I don't think is so pleased with the practice as well but can't really do a thing about it...

Third, remember that this isn't about our Canadian colleagues at CJ and SG, they are all entitled to earn a decent living. This is about the practices of their employers to lower the cost of their operation on the back of their own employees and the qualifiable Canadian pilots, through a misuse and abuse of the Canadian laws in order to unjustly compete with operators who play by the rules.

[.......]

I've read plenty about the issue. More "foreigners" are coming to Canada than other countries will let in. Blah, blah, blah.

I just find it ironic how everyone seems to be all for the efficient movement of labour and capital (free trade) until their personal interests are at stake. At that point it becomes free trade for everyone else and protectionism for me. You either support open borders or you do not- you can't have it both ways.

I don't think you've read enough...or you just want to ...

[trey kule]

What would happen if every country's pilots convinced their governments not to allow "foreigners"?

Well, myself and several hundred other Canadian ex-pat pilots would be out of jobs. Jobs that pay anywhere from 50% to 100% more than we would make in Canada....and we pay Canadian taxes even though we are not living in Canada...

In the balance of things, I think you will find there are more Canadian pilots working overseas, then there are foreign pilots working in Canada...Seems Canada is ahead on the balance of things. And that means more pilot jobs for the surplus of pilots we have...Senior ones (and some junior ones) leave the Canadian market, and it makes room for advancement for the others...Guess what will happen if we all had to come back?

It is to bad that people just sign things without really thinking about the whole picture.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

950 signatures in the first 24 hours. Not bad at all. I hope we keep the momentum going. We need much more.

[Gino Under]

To some, get yer head out of yer arse!
Foreign countries NEED foreign pilots (including Canadians) because they have real pilot shortages.
Canada doesn't have a pilot shortage and therefore doesn't need to recruit foreign pilots.
Reciprocity has NOTHING to do with nor any place or part to do with this discussion!

Gino Under

[trey kule]

To some, get yer head out of yer arse!

If that comment was directed at me,I suggest you do some editing of your post.

My comment was strictly in response to Bede's post.

In any event , there is no need for that type of language even if you can hide behind anomynity.

[Rudder Bug]

Signed!

[Liquid Charlie]

While I don't think we can ever keep foreign pilots out of canada I think some of the solution would be for TC to grow a set and make them do a full license conversion (exams ifr etc) and that the companies be force to count them as initials and complete the appropriate training. That would go a long way to even the playing field -- the only way to control it is to hit the operators in the pocket book and make the license conversion as difficult as it is in Europe --

[Bede]

A couple posters have mentioned that the difference is that oversees, there is a shortage of pilots. A shortage is simply an economic disequilibrium because of an insufficient price level. If China, etc cut off the supply of foreign pilots, the wages for the chinese pilots would climb through the roof until it became uneconomical for some of the airlines to survive. They would close shop and the chinese pilots would be left with astronomical wages and there would be no more shortage.

A type rating is a major qualification and is a serious investment in an employee. Could it be that if some of these airlines had to give out type ratings just to see their employees walk out the door when WJA calls, they would not be viable businesses? The obvious answer is that providing training is a cost of doing business (I agree), and the typical pilot suggestion is to increase their prices to reflect these increased costs. Of course it is likely that increasing prices, especially in the charter tourism business would result in the company losing it's contracts, shutting down, flooding the market with pilots, further suppressing pilot wages.

The way our industry is going, I predict that in a few years, the government will loosen foreign ownership restrictions and allow greater point to point access of our markets from foreign carriers- with or without reciprocity. Our careers may very well suffer as a result. I am trying to play devil's advocate to start a bit of a debate and allow some good reasons to come to the surface as to what we as pilots can do to continue to have the standard of living we want. Instead, the best arguments I get are "unfairness", some even going as far as saying unfairness is OK as long as it benefits us. If these arguments don't convince me, they sure won't convince the government or the travelling public no matter how many signatures you have on a petition intended to benefit yourselves.

[trey kule]

A shortage is simply an economic disequilibrium because of an insufficient price level

At the risk of stating the obvious, the shortage overseas is because there is not enough domestic pilots to fill all the seats....regardless of the wages.
There are 800 expats working at one Chinese carrier right now, and China is training hundreds upon hundreds of new pilots to ultimately relieve the shortage and fill the seats with domestic pilots....at a very much lower cost. Their problem was not one of economic diswhatever. It was simply that their airline industry has grown, and continues to grow faster than they can turn out pilots as they had vitually no GA training facilities until the last few years, and it is not the simple process it is in Canada to catch up.
The folks in HongKong have had this problem for years, and now are trying a cadet program, with, as it happens, a lower cost.
India has virtually shut down licensing due to a huge license fraud, so they will require foreign pilots for some time.

The same situation existed in the Caribbean not so long ago, and they have pretty much resolved it now...Ex pats flying for the majors like LIAT are now few and far between.

Now, to reverse my postion a bit, the situation in Canada is different. Temporary foreign pilots are a cost effective solution for companies that only need pilots on a seasonal basis. It is simply a case of low cost and experience, so the situation is different.

The whole sign a petition is, in my opinion, very self interested to a rather small group who wants the support of a large group. But I will leave it to individuals to make themselves informed of the big picture and do what is right.

[Bede]

Trey Kule,

I think you are only looking at one side of the supply demand curve. In China there are not enough pilots to fill the seats, at the current pilot wage levels. If foreign pilots were eliminated from the chinese market, existing airlines would have to compete for the services of a limited number of native chinese pilots. They would do this by increasing wages. As wages increased, carriers would be forced to raise their prices. Increased prices would lead to a decrease in demand for air travel in China. Eventually, some of the carriers would be forced to close as a result of the decreased demand and higher costs. Once firms start to close, there would be fewer available pilot jobs and eventually there would no longer be a shortage of pilots to fill the seats. The wage of pilots would remain high until there is a change in demand. This is how an efficient market maintains equilibrium. You can substitute construction workers, milk, Oranges (imagine the price of Oranges if we only allowed domestic Oranges in Canada?!), or any other commodity for pilots and the supply demand equilibrium still holds. Of course there will always be some resistance and elasticity but the equilibrium will hold.

The unfortunate corollary in Canada is that if you lowered the wage levels of pilots, there would no longer be a surplus of pilots.

I feel for the guys in the RS at Sunwing, etc that are qualified to upgrade, but my feelings don't alter the laws of economics.

[sanjet]

We can't just let this happen, CEO's threatening our national airline that he would create a low cost offshore airline using this very same clause. We are talking about the long term future of our profession as a full.
Some of you guys are saying we can all sit back and let capitalism do its work. We all saw how that went well with wall street, with no oversight a few years ago. The elites will continue racking in millions while the middle class lose their jobs for the ultimate dollar.

[WetJet]

This is long overdue, I hope we can put an end to this practice.

[Bede]

We can't just let this happen, CEO's threatening our national airline that he would create a low cost offshore airline using this very same clause. We are talking about the long term future of our profession as a full.
Some of you guys are saying we can all sit back and let capitalism do its work. We all saw how that went well with wall street, with no oversight a few years ago. The elites will continue racking in millions while the middle class lose their jobs for the ultimate dollar.

I share your concern. However, capitalism does it's work regardless of whether we get in the way or not. It just hurts more when you get in the way. However, I don't think we should sit back and watch our professions get eroded like many other professions. We should see what is going on, understand why it's going on and adjust our strategy to protect our profession based on sound economic principles as opposed to ideological trade unionism philosophies that are all but dead.

I believe that as pilots we need to increase the value we provide to our those paying our pay cheque. We may be more expensive, but we are better pilots than foreign pilots (compare accident rates). Not everyone who wants can become a doctor or lawyer in Canada. Unfortunately, it doesn't take a lot of skill to become a commercial pilot in Canada. Even if someone gets into med or law school, the exams to gain licensure in those professions (administered by their peers) is extremely difficult and allows only the best in. I think we as pilots need to do the same thing. I am in strong support of a professional association with entrance exams, a minimum experience, a set of ethical guidelines, and sufficient membership dues to administer and protect our profession. This is the direction we need to take. We need to spend our energy lobbying the government to allow professional licensure of our profession.

Another poster had an excellent suggestion and I will build on it. If foreign pilots want to come to Canada and practise their trade, they are free to do so. However, they must have licensure (TC and professional) to work here to ensure the travelling public gets nothing but the highest quality product.

This debate needs to be framed as "we are guardians of the public interest for air travel", not "it's not fair, I want more money". Governments and the public are far more receptive to that line of reasoning.

[mbav8r]

Bede is in support of WestJet expanding the Thomas Cook wet lease program they have, all in the name of profit sharing. It stands to reason he would be in support of Sun Wing's foreign pilot program because he seems to believe whatever it takes for a company to be profitable is acceptable.
Sun Wing's lower cost advantage is evident by the consolidation between WestJet and Thomas Cook Canada. If Sun Wing is allowed to continue and expand, what will happen to WestJet vacations? This is not just a simple case of Canadian pilots for Canadian jobs! It's a case of unfair business practice putting pressure on other Canadian pilot jobs down the road. Training is a cost of doing business and all Canadian companies have that cost except Sun Wing and to a lesser degree CanJet. If you can't do it fairly and make a profit, then get out of the market.
Hey I have an idea, lets bring in foreign workers and pay them 15% less than Canadians for the same job!