Pilot fatigue cited in Air Canada in-flight incident

[Woxof38]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/201 ... eport.html

Instead, the TSB report says the first officer, who had just woken up from a nap in the cockpit, initially mistook the planet Venus for a U.S. Air Force C-17 military aircraft in the vicinity, and later decreased altitude abruptly after being "confused" and believing they were on an "imminent collision course" with the other aircraft.

The captain counter-reacted by pulling the plane up. The moves shook the aircraft violently and caused several passengers not wearing their seatbelts in economy class to be thrown up in the air and then flung down into their seats and the aisles of the cabin.

[HighT5]

"The TSB report also revealed that a third Air Canada pilot was on board "dead-heading" to Zurich to serve as a relief pilot for the return flight, but was seated in a regular seat so he wouldn't be paid."

Is this an accurate statement? AC guys don't get credit for dead-heading?

[DBC]

Half credit DH, the real cost is the loss of a J seat for crew rest if the flight is booked solid.

[Dutchpilotguy]

I'm looking for an emoticon that adequately covers the awkward factor of being 'that guy'... Oh, found it

On that note; anyone ever dreamed of going to the washroom and woke up In a panic?

Well, at least they missed Venus...
But you know, if a bus driver slept in the drivers seat, there'd be outrage (for obvious reasons). And a bus has a minimum crew of 1. Looking at a 767, You can anticipate where I'm going with this. Perhaps we all understand to a great degree the rationale in place, but the flying and fare paying public could care less. Unfortunately, a 'safe-guard' has probably given the poor FO a complex now, not to mention a level of frustration about injuries and his/her own personal performance, something alot worse than a botched mission over Macho Grande!

Down with human factors! Who's with me!?

[ahramin]

I don't think I'll ever get over Macho Grande.

And yes, I'd have a tough time convincing myself to continue with my career if I managed to do something like that, even groggy.

[Lost in Saigon]

The botched mission over Macho Grande: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjBdFPyxuak

[Colonel Sanders]

Was that filmed at the Tribunal?

[loopa]

http://www.ainonline.com/?q=node%2F103455

[bananaskins]

Pilot Fatique?? What nonsense. Toronto-Zurich is hardly a long arduous flight. Air Canada gives the crews plenty of rest between duties.

The pilot screwed up and the other pilot was not assertive enough to step in and correct the captain from his ridiculous manuever when he woke up or the captain was a bit too quick in his actions for the other pilot to stop him.

Whatever they say to cover up this ridiculous incident will just make matters worse. Admit the screwup and see to it that it doesn't happen again.

Am I being too harsh??

[YYZSaabGuy]

I'll let the professionals on here and particularly the Air Canada guys weigh in on why you are completely incorrect in dismissing fatigue as a non-issue. Suffice it to say that you couldn't be more wrong. Moreover, you might re-read the article and get your facts straight: it was the F/O, not the Captain, who initiated the descent, and it was the Captain, not the F/O, who corrected back to cruise altitude. Given that the incident was thoroughly investigated and has been widely reported, where on earth are you coming up with any suggestion of a cover-up?

[Lost in Saigon]

Pilot Fatique?? What nonsense. Toronto-Zurich is hardly a long arduous flight. Air Canada gives the crews plenty of rest between duties.

Most Airlines use 3 pilots on sectors like this.

The problem is not so much the length of the flight, but the time of day the flight takes place. Most people can not instantly adjust their body clock to sleep during the day and then fly all night. The Zurich flight leaves Toronto around 9pm and you fly for 8 hours when most people are sleeping. Even though you know you will be working all night, it is VERY difficult to get some sleep before the flight. The worst part is when the sun starts coming up as you approach Europe and you know you still have hours to go.

To make matters worse, Air Canada is also one of the few airlines in the world where they expect you to be on reserve starting at 6am, and then be called at 7pm to operate an all night flight. Most reserve pilots feel pressure to accept a flight like that because of their sense of duty to the company or because they will lose money if they don't operate the flight.

[KK7]

Admit the screwup and see to it that it doesn't happen again.

Am I being too harsh??

I would be interested in hearing how you would propose mitigating this so it doesn't happen again, if you don't think it has anything to do with fatigue?

This sector and others flown trans-Atlantic eastbound are flown overnight. The total time of the flight is well within limits, but don't you think it's about time we start considering circadian rhythms? Flying 8-9 hours is much more difficult to do overnight than it is during the day unless you're flying at night only as is the case with cargo operators. The crew spends most of their time living during the day, sleeping at night, then fly overnight, then after their rest period in Switzerland or wherever, fly back to N. America during the day.

[JDA]

And the lawsuits begin...

http://www.castanet.net/edition/news-st ... .htm#74853

[Colonel Sanders]

I am honestly amazed that TC didn't lay a charge of careless and/or negligence (CAR 602.01) against the F/O. I really think that they could make it stick, on appeal.

[RenegadeAV8R]

And the lawsuits begin...

http://www.castanet.net/edition/news-st ... .htm#74853

"Obviously, everybody without seatbelts were thrown violently into the air and back down."

None of the injured was buckled up even though seatbelt signs had been on for 40 minutes because of concerns over turbulence.

All these passengers with no seatbelt should be heavily fined; but instead they are suing Air Canada for 20 millions. Something is wrong in today's world.

[ahramin]

And the lawsuits begin...

http://www.castanet.net/edition/news-st ... .htm#74853

"Obviously, everybody without seatbelts were thrown violently into the air and back down."

None of the injured was buckled up even though seatbelt signs had been on for 40 minutes because of concerns over turbulence.

All these passengers with no seatbelt should be heavily fined; but instead they are suing Air Canada for 20 millions. Something is wrong in today's world.

While I agree with the sentiment that passengers need to be held responsible for their choices, in this case it sounds like nobody sued when it was due to turbulence. Now that it turns out the airline lied about it, the lawsuits begin. Airlines are guilty of this all the time "We're being delayed by ATC" or "Some of our passengers checked in late so we're just waiting on their bags". I've seen these lines given out for maintenance issues way too many times. At some point we need to realize that integrity needs to be one of the core values of all the key players in an airline - pilots and managers alike - or the whole thing doesn't work.

[ahramin]

And the lawsuits begin...

http://www.castanet.net/edition/news-st ... .htm#74853

"Obviously, everybody without seatbelts were thrown violently into the air and back down."

None of the injured was buckled up even though seatbelt signs had been on for 40 minutes because of concerns over turbulence.

All these passengers with no seatbelt should be heavily fined; but instead they are suing Air Canada for 20 millions. Something is wrong in today's world.

While I agree with the sentiment that passengers need to be held responsible for their choices (good idea about the fines), in this case it sounds like nobody sued when it was due to turbulence. Now that it turns out the airline lied about it, the lawsuits begin. Airlines are guilty of this all the time "We're being delayed by ATC" or "Some of our passengers checked in late so we're just waiting on their bags". I've seen these lines given out for maintenance issues way too many times. At some point we need to realize that integrity needs to be one of the core values of all the key players in an airline - pilots and managers alike - or the whole thing doesn't work.

[The Fish]

While I agree with the sentiment that passengers need to be held responsible for their choices (good idea about the fines), in this case it sounds like nobody sued when it was due to turbulence. Now that it turns out the airline lied about it, the lawsuits begin. Airlines are guilty of this all the time "We're being delayed by ATC" or "Some of our passengers checked in late so we're just waiting on their bags". I've seen these lines given out for maintenance issues way too many times. At some point we need to realize that integrity needs to be one of the core values of all the key players in an airline - pilots and managers alike - or the whole thing doesn't work.

I disagree,
I think these good folks would have sued anyway, even if it was turbulence.

It's no coincidence that the lawsuit wasn't filed till the final TSB report was released.

[ahramin]

It's possible. In any case TSB reports are inadmissible in court.