I think some sort of unification among these insurance companies.. becasue they are a BIG PART of the problem...they hike the premiums and then employers wont hire low timers. I think if they drop down (or if some governing agency controls them) it would help a lot.
Unions? Maybe for a medium size operators, no so for the 1-2 plane operators. And those who right away think unions are bad, I would not agree as far as aviation sector of industry. People in them are not some lazey morons (like in CAW for example), but some of YOU guys. There is a big difference!
Now this is all just brainstorming here...how about airline academy...so that entry cadets can get hired by airlines if thats what their goal is? Those who prefer bush, north, commuter or even regional flying wont really get affected, if that not where they are heading, right?
Time and experience???
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore
Maybe it’s just me, I don’t know, but don’t we have a massive surplus of pilot in Canada right now? Is working on the ramp such a bad thing if it opens the doors to a reputable operation? Maybe all these operators should do out with this ramp/pilot program. Pilots hired to fly, rampies hired to work ramp. Yeah, that should help all those low timers out there looking to break into the industry. 
Unfortunately, HERE IN CANADA, there are more pilots than pilot jobs. Working the ramp is a hell a lot better than slinging fries at your local McDonalds.
Just the way I see it.
Unfortunately, HERE IN CANADA, there are more pilots than pilot jobs. Working the ramp is a hell a lot better than slinging fries at your local McDonalds.
Just the way I see it.
In one way you are right, but should you make the same money than MacDonald? Yes, there is a pilot surplus but those who find a job should get more money... also i think this surplus thing is over-dimensioned, an excuse to trow you in the ramp and get cheap labor. If a company need a pilot why hire him to pump gas a year earlier? Sound like hiring a lawyer as nanny because in a year you may divorce....
It's better to break ground and head into the wind than to break wind and head into the ground
Actually, I dont want to piss in your corn flakes here, BUT, McDonalds has a much better benefit package than anybody will ever have working a dock.....and....it's year round employment! How do you like them apples?? And the crap people shovel about "learning the routes, the airplane etc, throough loading" is just that.....CRAP!! I dont know how it would make you a safer pilot either?????? Anybody?
I am totally agreeing with you guys!
That was my whole point on this topic....it does not make you any better in 2 yrs on ramp! What it does, is provide cheap, intellegent and reliable workes with strong commitment for these operators.
Like I mentioned, guys at Lufthansa, Swiss, Cathy and others, should when they train new cadets, send them to dispatch, ramp or reservation, to learn routes and W&Balance
Come on!
So how come then instructors dont do ramp or dispatch as much as other pilots in the entry level industry...so now they have brand new instructors rating on the 200hr licence, and they are safe and responsible to train rookies??? And others are not good to fly solo C172??? (not arguing with this, just drawing a parallel)
That was my whole point on this topic....it does not make you any better in 2 yrs on ramp! What it does, is provide cheap, intellegent and reliable workes with strong commitment for these operators.
Like I mentioned, guys at Lufthansa, Swiss, Cathy and others, should when they train new cadets, send them to dispatch, ramp or reservation, to learn routes and W&Balance
Come on!So how come then instructors dont do ramp or dispatch as much as other pilots in the entry level industry...so now they have brand new instructors rating on the 200hr licence, and they are safe and responsible to train rookies??? And others are not good to fly solo C172??? (not arguing with this, just drawing a parallel)
Problem solved then, go work at McDonald's.Actually, I dont want to piss in your corn flakes here, BUT, McDonalds has a much better benefit package than anybody will ever have working a dock.....and....it's year round employment!
Seriously though, it's the industry we're in, if there are no pilot seats available at the given time then why not wait on the ramp until one comes available.
Now I’m not sure about every other operator, but where I work there are close to 30 guys on the ground waiting to get in the air and every aircraft we fly have more than enough crews. So don’t think that ALL operators are using the surplus issue as an "excuse".
Mind you, the industry is looking a little more promising so things for low timers might improve. You know, that whole supply and demand thing.
But for now there isn't much of a demand for 200 hour pilots. So you can either accept the hand you're dealt or pick up one of those sweet gigs at McDonalds, I hear they have an amazing benefit package. The choice is yours.
You are right J Roc anyone has the right to choose,
but i think here we are trying to discuss why the industry is doing like that, if it is safe, and if there might be a "solutions", only a conversation.
I am an IT manager, much better than a ramp job!!! this is my choice for now but as an aviation freak i would love to get a pay-cut if i have the chance to fly even a small plane.
The fact that 30 people are waiting for 1 position, it is scary!!!! You might need years to get there, in the mean time are you becoming safer (insurance req)? are you becoming more valuable for your company as pilot? Do you think that if (hypotetically) Paul Martin'son come to your company and ask for a pilot job, he will start from the ramp?
At this point we all might agree that the industry is giving us "excuses" as we said before, to keep you pumping gas and without hearing 30 people complaining about safety, wages, shifts, atc. because it is a game where the first one up is the better ass kisser and not the better pilot! If it has to be like that good!!!! but don't you think is a waste?
Ciao
but i think here we are trying to discuss why the industry is doing like that, if it is safe, and if there might be a "solutions", only a conversation.
I am an IT manager, much better than a ramp job!!! this is my choice for now but as an aviation freak i would love to get a pay-cut if i have the chance to fly even a small plane.
The fact that 30 people are waiting for 1 position, it is scary!!!! You might need years to get there, in the mean time are you becoming safer (insurance req)? are you becoming more valuable for your company as pilot? Do you think that if (hypotetically) Paul Martin'son come to your company and ask for a pilot job, he will start from the ramp?
At this point we all might agree that the industry is giving us "excuses" as we said before, to keep you pumping gas and without hearing 30 people complaining about safety, wages, shifts, atc. because it is a game where the first one up is the better ass kisser and not the better pilot! If it has to be like that good!!!! but don't you think is a waste?
Ciao
It's better to break ground and head into the wind than to break wind and head into the ground
-
Beaver Driver
- Rank 3
- Posts: 168
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:25 am
- Location: Sask
I used to work for a now defunked company that was always getting bashed on this web site for mistreating it's employees. During the time I was there the ground crew would spend one week in the office/ramp/dock, and one week in the right seat of a ho. It usually took about one year to start flying full time. I remember these guys bitching and complaining because some friend on thiers got left seat somewhere else in less time, or right out of school, while at the same time our company had no movement out the top(at that time the top job was ho captain, or beaver). So I'm wondering what did these guys think should happen. Did they figure that everyone should automatically get a PPC?
Fixed amount of flying divided by more pilots = less flying (less money) for everyone.
One week in the air and one week on the ground is a better schedule than what Little Red is doing right now, and they are up for the av canada company of the year award.
Now on the other hand I have also worked for a company that did not hire pilots to work on the dock. To get on with this company as a pilot you needed at least 2000 hours to get noticed, yet you hear nothing about this company on here. Who is (or was) helping the industry more.
I'm sure some companies are feeding the guys that line about learning the routes while working the ramp crap. But the real reason you have to work the ramp before flying is that timing is the key to getting a flying job. You have to be in the right place at the right time, so if you are right there when the company needs another driver, then your in.
With the exception of where phillyfan works, all ramp/dock jobs pay like crap weather you are a pilot or not.
Fixed amount of flying divided by more pilots = less flying (less money) for everyone.
One week in the air and one week on the ground is a better schedule than what Little Red is doing right now, and they are up for the av canada company of the year award.
Now on the other hand I have also worked for a company that did not hire pilots to work on the dock. To get on with this company as a pilot you needed at least 2000 hours to get noticed, yet you hear nothing about this company on here. Who is (or was) helping the industry more.
I'm sure some companies are feeding the guys that line about learning the routes while working the ramp crap. But the real reason you have to work the ramp before flying is that timing is the key to getting a flying job. You have to be in the right place at the right time, so if you are right there when the company needs another driver, then your in.
With the exception of where phillyfan works, all ramp/dock jobs pay like crap weather you are a pilot or not.
Flying a twin only doubles your chance of having an engine failure
And the reason they all pay like crap? Because that's what new pilots seem to think they're worth?
If you had spent that much on a real education, would you hang around some office. cleaning ashtrays, and washing the staff cars for $7.50 per hour on the offhand chance somebody may quit, and you get his/her job?? No you wouldn't!
And if company "B" has a Beaver, two Cessnas, and a turbine Otter, with pilots who return each year, how do you think working a dock will get you ahead? Get a real job, and keep plugging away for that first "flying" job! Dont forget, that if you have 200 hours, and take a job on the ramp for two years....you still have 200 hours!! DUH! So, maybe it's time to rethink being a float driver as a first job? The insurance companies are never going to reduce the requirements. Instructing, banner towing, para dropping, sight-seeing flights? Get together with another pilot in the same boat. Get a day, VFR only OC. Lease an old buck-seventy-two. Hang out your shingle. Take people for rides and show them the sights. Take photos of big homes, and knock on doors to sell the pics. No float time required. Have some pride...dont work in the aviation industry for $7.50 per hour! Find a way to build on your 200 hours rather than being stuck on a ramp/dock for the same period of time? You know, everybody loves to dump on instructors, but I'll take a 1200 hour instructor, over a 200 hour ramp rat any day!
So, when you knock on a door, and th CP has no flying jobs, but can stick you on the dock for the summer, shake his hand, look him straight in the eye, and say no thanks, I'm looking for a flying job. Pretty simple really. Afterall, that's what you've trained for.
If you had spent that much on a real education, would you hang around some office. cleaning ashtrays, and washing the staff cars for $7.50 per hour on the offhand chance somebody may quit, and you get his/her job?? No you wouldn't!
And if company "B" has a Beaver, two Cessnas, and a turbine Otter, with pilots who return each year, how do you think working a dock will get you ahead? Get a real job, and keep plugging away for that first "flying" job! Dont forget, that if you have 200 hours, and take a job on the ramp for two years....you still have 200 hours!! DUH! So, maybe it's time to rethink being a float driver as a first job? The insurance companies are never going to reduce the requirements. Instructing, banner towing, para dropping, sight-seeing flights? Get together with another pilot in the same boat. Get a day, VFR only OC. Lease an old buck-seventy-two. Hang out your shingle. Take people for rides and show them the sights. Take photos of big homes, and knock on doors to sell the pics. No float time required. Have some pride...dont work in the aviation industry for $7.50 per hour! Find a way to build on your 200 hours rather than being stuck on a ramp/dock for the same period of time? You know, everybody loves to dump on instructors, but I'll take a 1200 hour instructor, over a 200 hour ramp rat any day!
So, when you knock on a door, and th CP has no flying jobs, but can stick you on the dock for the summer, shake his hand, look him straight in the eye, and say no thanks, I'm looking for a flying job. Pretty simple really. Afterall, that's what you've trained for.
Doc, that's the attitude that's going to change this whole industry! I take my hat off for you!!! 
Keep pluging at those hours, find a way around it, and also ENJOY your young years, somewhere in a normal living enviroment! They only come once.... Pilot should be a well-rounded, open minded person, because airlines won't look just for hours when that interview call comes in!
And if you do ramp, make a deal (realistic, on the paper if it means something), about a plan to get you on the bird. If it looks shaddy after few months get out, and look for an alternative. You won't regret it!
Keep pluging at those hours, find a way around it, and also ENJOY your young years, somewhere in a normal living enviroment! They only come once.... Pilot should be a well-rounded, open minded person, because airlines won't look just for hours when that interview call comes in!
And if you do ramp, make a deal (realistic, on the paper if it means something), about a plan to get you on the bird. If it looks shaddy after few months get out, and look for an alternative. You won't regret it!
I agree completely DOC. Now it is a shame that AC and WJ aren't just hiring guys straight out of school, that would be great, but this simply not the reality out there guys. GET OVER IT! As such you've got to be creative on how to get a flying job and continue to build your hours. Sitting on a dock for two years is not going to do it. An imployer should be able to make a reasonalble assesment of your work ethic and carisma from the first few days on the job. Throw in your resume - which may not have any flying work but some great references, and then previous work experience, and they should in the least have a pretty good idea of who you are. Any employer who leads you to believe they need 6 months, a year, or hell... even two years to asses your abilities to be their pilot, is simply buying a very gullable pilot.
Now, I'm not in the least suggesting that you not show you are capable and willing to do other work around the base; simply ensure that these are duties performed when not flying, ie bad weather, slow days. This way, you will know that at least part of your job is 'pilot', and you will be continuing to build flight time and more importantly experience as pilot.
I think if you were to look back at the history of flying in Canada, you would see that all the successful pioneers of aviation in this country were capable of running one man show. It really isn't that different today, since very few small operators can afford to ONLY have a pilot. And lets face it, if you're flying in the sticks you'ld better damn well be able to do some pretty quick thinking and problem solving on your own sometimes.
Do your research and make sure you focus on good companies, they will give you the best training, equipment and learning environment. Most importantly if they don't become your last employers, they will in the very least give you an excellent reference for future jobs.
Now, I'm not in the least suggesting that you not show you are capable and willing to do other work around the base; simply ensure that these are duties performed when not flying, ie bad weather, slow days. This way, you will know that at least part of your job is 'pilot', and you will be continuing to build flight time and more importantly experience as pilot.
I think if you were to look back at the history of flying in Canada, you would see that all the successful pioneers of aviation in this country were capable of running one man show. It really isn't that different today, since very few small operators can afford to ONLY have a pilot. And lets face it, if you're flying in the sticks you'ld better damn well be able to do some pretty quick thinking and problem solving on your own sometimes.
Do your research and make sure you focus on good companies, they will give you the best training, equipment and learning environment. Most importantly if they don't become your last employers, they will in the very least give you an excellent reference for future jobs.
Doc, i think your attitude is the right one.
Again aviation shloud be built from pilots.!!!!If everybody start thinking like you the all industry will benefit.
It is obviuos that you have to be able to do many thing, specially in small companies, but you should get paid for it... remember my friend in europe? He was hited with few hundreds hours, when he land, he has to unload the luggage, fill up the plane, prepare the next flight plan, clean the cabin (out of airport they have to do it) and be prepare for the customer when comes back... but guess what he start flying on a CJ2 and citation II, now has 1200 hours (almost all jet time) he flow all over europe with very experienced captains (he learned a lot from them), next month he will do a PPC on a Lear 45 because he is very proficent and the comapy is very happy of him (he got compliments from Cessna too during his PPC this shows that also low-timer can be proficent) and he makes a lot of money!!!!! because the passengers (most of them VIPs like Valentino Rossi, Eric Clapton, etc.) i would be feel unsafe to learn the pilot make less money than a bus driver.!!!!
Now, in Europe they have the same problems, a lot of pilots and no jobs, why is so different then? why you CAN get a flying-job with low-time? and most of all, why they pay good money? Anybody here think they do not deserve it? In Italy unions fought a lot to have salary minimun by job category (example a pilot minimum is more than a secretary minimum), comanies then are forced to pay decent salaries, plus a lot of comapies (like Windjet or Eurojet) found that having a lot of turn-over means losing experiences and cost too much in traninig, so they prefer pay pilots more money so they incentivate them to stay in the company!!!!
Another friend of mine (very good pilot) left Canada to fly in Europe, Don't we lose professionalism in this case?
Again aviation shloud be built from pilots.!!!!If everybody start thinking like you the all industry will benefit.
It is obviuos that you have to be able to do many thing, specially in small companies, but you should get paid for it... remember my friend in europe? He was hited with few hundreds hours, when he land, he has to unload the luggage, fill up the plane, prepare the next flight plan, clean the cabin (out of airport they have to do it) and be prepare for the customer when comes back... but guess what he start flying on a CJ2 and citation II, now has 1200 hours (almost all jet time) he flow all over europe with very experienced captains (he learned a lot from them), next month he will do a PPC on a Lear 45 because he is very proficent and the comapy is very happy of him (he got compliments from Cessna too during his PPC this shows that also low-timer can be proficent) and he makes a lot of money!!!!! because the passengers (most of them VIPs like Valentino Rossi, Eric Clapton, etc.) i would be feel unsafe to learn the pilot make less money than a bus driver.!!!!
Now, in Europe they have the same problems, a lot of pilots and no jobs, why is so different then? why you CAN get a flying-job with low-time? and most of all, why they pay good money? Anybody here think they do not deserve it? In Italy unions fought a lot to have salary minimun by job category (example a pilot minimum is more than a secretary minimum), comanies then are forced to pay decent salaries, plus a lot of comapies (like Windjet or Eurojet) found that having a lot of turn-over means losing experiences and cost too much in traninig, so they prefer pay pilots more money so they incentivate them to stay in the company!!!!
Another friend of mine (very good pilot) left Canada to fly in Europe, Don't we lose professionalism in this case?
It's better to break ground and head into the wind than to break wind and head into the ground
Re: Time and experience???
Let's get back to the heart of the subject : lying. From my point of view, that is exactly what discourages me the most.Mig29 wrote:Ok guys, one question.
You know how frustrating is getting those first couple hundred hours in the beginning...and I am sure you've been turned down a number of times by employers, saying that you don't have enough for the INSURANCE minimums. Ok, I understand that.
Now, how come some employers will use you on the ground (use you, unless you are lucky to avoid this position in the first place) and hire you with bare CPL/MIFR...and then after 1-2 years will put you on the aircraft, whether its a float plane or a single on wheels...and you can THEN legally fly it with those same hours you had before, but were not acceptable for the insurance requirements
What a freaking scam this industry is....they treat you like garbage as if you just came out of elementary school! Use you, and dispose you when you are not needed anymore....or you end up just quitting the place.
(I know that there are some legit and descent companies, who will keep their word, so exclude them please from this
I went to and called some employers and being a very straightforward person I told them : "I'm a low-timer and I attended what I beleive to be an above-average flight school. Well that cost me a lot and now, no thanks for that instructor position 'cause I can't afford the rating. I need money now and I'm looking for flying, of course."
Now, I've been getting different type of answers :
1- I understand your position, however I am in need of instructors only. When I do have openings for my charters ops, I usually fill them from my instructors already working here. But you know, you should try going to X place or Y company, I know they hire people like you.
2- Oh yeah, send us your resume, I'll forward it to the Chief Pilot. What's his name? Gee I can't tell you that. His phone number? Top Secret! How many hours do you have? 200? Pfff. Forget it! We do not accept resume under 2000 hrs!
What's the difference between the two?
Well one was actually the owner of a flight school and well, when I went up to him and told him what I was up to he answered me exactly the way I told him : with truth.
I swear to God I would prefer being said a thousands that there is no opening by a truthful chief pilot who looks me in the eye when I speak to him rather than being taken for a f-ing idiot by a hyprocrit-lying-bitch-ass-as-cold-as-a-serial-killer's heart secretary.
You tell me that you would rather have me work for 6 months on the ramp, 1 year? I don't mind. I can understand that you want to be able to trust me before spending that extra insurance money on me. But don't ever bullshit me on slaving for you forever! And the pay you offer is better be worth it the waiting time. When you think about it, it doesn't even take 6 months of flying to get at or above most insurance requirements for reasonable premiums. So why should I get to poor salary for years to come?
You tell me that you would have me pay for my PPC? I don't mind. I can understand that lots of pilots have abused your trust by getting training and hours out of you just to go to a better jobs months after being hired. However, why are you not considering the fact that I'm broke right now and that I have no more reason of trusting you with my money that you have to trust me. I'm certainly not borrowing 4000$ out of someone who's gonna break my legs when you'll be telling me that I'll be flying once a week and that you're paying by the hour... of flight of course.
I could go on like this forever. The actual problem is not at all related to aviation. Honesty has always been lacking in humanity, the phenomenon is not new. Aviation is maybe more propice for immoral behavior because it involves a lot of passion.
Us pilots are ready to do almost anything, even to make that extra leap of faith to get that job.
Owners of aviation companies are ready to almost anything to keep their dream company afloat, even if it means exploiting pilots.
I understand that. When I see people fighting and calling names like earlier in this post I find it very regrettable because you all forget with whom you're interacting in the end : human beings. Human with dreams.
I do not need to explain how diffcult circumstances can push someone to alter his moral code. That is why we end up having some pilots flying for nothing and that is why employers pay nothing for flying.
If only you guys could remember that we're only human beings and have enough respect for each other to speak the truth.
I'm looking for a job! CPL Multi-IFR Class 1 224 TT ... I know, I know 
Good post....BUT....you SHOULD mind being asked to work the ramp or buy your PPC. That's why this practice continues. Because some pilots dont "mind" doing it.
The honesty thing? To some point, what you say has merit...no doubt about it. But you do get these pilots trained by company "A" just to find out that the grass IS greener elsewhere....and being a free country...they make the move. I costs company "A" some $$$, no doubt about it. It's called business, and sometimes business costs big $$$$. News Flash to company "A"....it would be far cheaper to pay the pilots well, and treat them well than operate a "revolving" door?
I met a couple of 'ho drivers the other day.....the grass isn't all that green, BUT the small company they work for DID NOT bind them to a training contract....and they were working VERY HARD to do their part to make that operation work! And from what I saw, the grass could use some work indeed!
We are not dishonest, as a group. I've given my "word" on several occassions, only to find myself stuck in a real "shit-hole" simply because I shook a hand and promised them a year.
The honesty thing? To some point, what you say has merit...no doubt about it. But you do get these pilots trained by company "A" just to find out that the grass IS greener elsewhere....and being a free country...they make the move. I costs company "A" some $$$, no doubt about it. It's called business, and sometimes business costs big $$$$. News Flash to company "A"....it would be far cheaper to pay the pilots well, and treat them well than operate a "revolving" door?
I met a couple of 'ho drivers the other day.....the grass isn't all that green, BUT the small company they work for DID NOT bind them to a training contract....and they were working VERY HARD to do their part to make that operation work! And from what I saw, the grass could use some work indeed!
We are not dishonest, as a group. I've given my "word" on several occassions, only to find myself stuck in a real "shit-hole" simply because I shook a hand and promised them a year.
Why doesn't TC make PPC's non-transferable? That would eliminate the problem right there. PCC's are not company transferable, why should PPC's be? There would be no more running off to what you perceive to be a better job and companies would be unable to steal guys from other operators. It might not completely solve the problem but I think it would be a good start in fixing it.
One week in the air and one week on the ground is a better schedule than what Little Red is doing right now, and they are up for the av canada company of the year award.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Little Red Air program for new pilots is actually pretty good. Little Red takes 2 to 3 total newbies(250 hour pilots) each spring trains them on the 206 and on dispatch. They start by working 2 weeks in dispatch and 1 week flying, eventually, by the end of the summer, full time flying. If they work out as both good people and good pilots they end up right seat in the King Air. Usually when they have increased their flying time to somewhere over 1200 hours a VFR checkout in the Caravan will take place and shortly thereafter an IFR checkout. Some choose to stay in the right seat of the King Air as it is "easier" work. Realistically these young pilots could expect the left seat of a King Air within 36-48 months.
I think it's a pretty good system. So I'm not sure why the note of sarcasm.
How many other operators can offer that kind of progression to a new kid, with limited time being spent on the ramp.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Little Red Air program for new pilots is actually pretty good. Little Red takes 2 to 3 total newbies(250 hour pilots) each spring trains them on the 206 and on dispatch. They start by working 2 weeks in dispatch and 1 week flying, eventually, by the end of the summer, full time flying. If they work out as both good people and good pilots they end up right seat in the King Air. Usually when they have increased their flying time to somewhere over 1200 hours a VFR checkout in the Caravan will take place and shortly thereafter an IFR checkout. Some choose to stay in the right seat of the King Air as it is "easier" work. Realistically these young pilots could expect the left seat of a King Air within 36-48 months.
I think it's a pretty good system. So I'm not sure why the note of sarcasm.
How many other operators can offer that kind of progression to a new kid, with limited time being spent on the ramp.
Lots of company companies, which I find extremly respectable, pay for your training from the ground up. We see that often in Europe and Asia a lot, EasyJet, Air France, Air India being good examples. They pay for all your training and then bind you to a contract, often about 7 years. If you leave before, you pay part of your training costs. The military does that also and I think nobody thinks these companies suck. Actually, I cannot think of a fairer agreement.Doc wrote:Good post....BUT....you SHOULD mind being asked to work the ramp or buy your PPC. That's why this practice continues. Because some pilots dont "mind" doing it.
The honesty thing? To some point, what you say has merit...no doubt about it. But you do get these pilots trained by company "A" just to find out that the grass IS greener elsewhere....and being a free country...they make the move. I costs company "A" some $$$, no doubt about it. It's called business, and sometimes business costs big $$$$. News Flash to company "A"....it would be far cheaper to pay the pilots well, and treat them well than operate a "revolving" door?
I met a couple of 'ho drivers the other day.....the grass isn't all that green, BUT the small company they work for DID NOT bind them to a training contract....and they were working VERY HARD to do their part to make that operation work! And from what I saw, the grass could use some work indeed!
We are not dishonest, as a group. I've given my "word" on several occassions, only to find myself stuck in a real "shit-hole" simply because I shook a hand and promised them a year.
So why then, when a chief pilot asks you that you commit yourself to staying within the company for a decent amount of time you guys throw your arms in the air? Of course there is always a greenier grass elsewhere : as you gain experience more interesting positions become available. However, I think you really lose sight of the company's interests when you say something as fallacious as "It costs company "A" some $$$, no doubt about it. It's called business, and sometimes business costs big $$$$". I mean come on! That's not a valid argument!
That's if you were working building houses and that your employees kept dying on the job because, let's say, they don't wear protective caps. Would you say : "Oh yeah, we've got people dying every day from equipement and 2x4 falling on their heads all the time. But hey, it's called house building and sometimes house building involves accidents!"
If a bussinessman agrees to invest his money in a company, of course he has to expect that parts of the profits has to be directed toward training new staff and keeping the current staff up to date. However, I see no reasons why it would be immoral for him to expect an employee to stick along for a certain amount of time ESPECIALLY since aviation involves really high training costs in a low profit environnement.
Yeah I know, when you go to McDonald's your paid for your training and you can leave anytime you wish without being held accountable for anything. However, at McDonald's (or almost any other type of company really), while you're being trained you're still being productive as opposed to aviation where you cannot be productive for the company before you're training is completed.
On the other hand, I understand your point of view, for it is mine also : I would probably not accept to pay for my training. First because I don't have the cash anyway and second because I don't believe I should pay for it. However, I do not expect an employer to give me all the training without asking any loyalty of my part and I would feel extremly guilty to leave him within months of my initial training.
That is why I believe that agreements such as those we can find in the military or europeans and asiatic companies is really the best of two worlds. The employee does not have to pay for the training (and that prevents discrimination between people with or without money, insuring that it is really the best pilots that are being hired) and the employer does not risk too much by providing the training since should the employee leave early, he will pay part of the training.
This is fair since you are remain free to go whenever you wish. You can argue that if you leave you will have to pay for training but then again, chances are you got the better job because of that very training (or at least the experience that training as given you access to) and it is only fair that YOU pay for the training since it has benefited YOU the most.
Now back to the "you should mind part". I do mind being asked to pay for training or working for the ramp. However, what I am saying that I do not mind as long as such practices are being done within reasonable limits. I am only trying to put myself into my employer's shoes. You want me to work for you 3 months as a rampee just to see what kind of peson I am? That's all right, it seems reasonable enough and I can understand your concern. However, much longer than that would hardly seem reasonable to my eyes and I would disagree.
You're asking for me to pay for training? Well you know, I understand your concern but I don't think it's fair that I handle all the risks. Why don't we agree that I shall remain available to you for a certain amount of time after training so that this way, we share the risks equally? If I leave early I agree to pay a penalty but on your part, it is in your interest of having me flying so that you did not pay my training for naught.
I really can't see why this point of view is not reasonable for everyone?
I'm looking for a job! CPL Multi-IFR Class 1 224 TT ... I know, I know
Short Bus...DO YOU ACTUALLY THINK A PILOT SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO CHANGE JOBS????? Get a grip people! Just because company B hires a guy with a PPC from company A, does this make company B a thief?? NO!
I say, let's just do away with PPC's altogether! Then everybody could go anywhere, and the cheap, sack-of-shit companies out there would loose ALL their pilots! If your company has pilots running off to greener pastures, who's falt is that???? YOUR'S!!!! DUH!!!
I say, let's just do away with PPC's altogether! Then everybody could go anywhere, and the cheap, sack-of-shit companies out there would loose ALL their pilots! If your company has pilots running off to greener pastures, who's falt is that???? YOUR'S!!!! DUH!!!
It always comes down the the poor operator having to train staff. I feel a tear welling up inside me as I type. Booo Hooooo!
Geeeee, I can afford a couple of King Airs, but I cant afford to train my pilots. Am I in the wrong business? No other industry has to pay to train their staff. Poor me...BoooHoooo!
And then I have someone comparing safety issues (falling 2X4's) with staff departing to better companies....methinks it's apples and oranges?
And aviation's always a "one-way street". The poor pilot has to fork over coin, or sign a promisary note to the company for training (which is more often than not CRAP training...not Flight Safety or the like) but the company has no such obligation to the pilot. Once we have your money, or your your signature, we have the God given right to treat you like shit. Guess what? Hence the turn-over. Got nothing to do with greener grass elsewhere, it's more the grass here tastes like crap?
Geeeee, I can afford a couple of King Airs, but I cant afford to train my pilots. Am I in the wrong business? No other industry has to pay to train their staff. Poor me...BoooHoooo!
And then I have someone comparing safety issues (falling 2X4's) with staff departing to better companies....methinks it's apples and oranges?
And aviation's always a "one-way street". The poor pilot has to fork over coin, or sign a promisary note to the company for training (which is more often than not CRAP training...not Flight Safety or the like) but the company has no such obligation to the pilot. Once we have your money, or your your signature, we have the God given right to treat you like shit. Guess what? Hence the turn-over. Got nothing to do with greener grass elsewhere, it's more the grass here tastes like crap?
C'mon Doc, don't get carried away here, of course you can change your job. But when company B hires guy from company A with a ppc, 99 times out of 100 it's because they can save cash. bottom line. Making ppc's non-transferable doesn't mean you're stuck at the same place forever, it just means that a company that wants a pilot has to train that pilot, i'd say that's the way it should be. Of course that will never happen so say hello to more training bonds and guys buying ppc's. I agree though that getting rid of ppc's altogether would be a good idea, though it would accomplish pretty much the same as making them non-transferable. But, its a moot point because for any change to be made it would involve alot of work by TC and I've got a better chance of beer coming out of my tap than that happening.
Hey! I've got beer comming out of MY taps! Actually. creating more workd for TC would be a good thing. That way TC would have to hire more inspectors. That would get rid of a bunch of guys who dont really want to fly anyway, therefore creating more work for the rest of us..you may be on to something. SShhhhhhh!
You're obviously not even trying to understand what others have to say.Doc wrote:It always comes down the the poor operator having to train staff. I feel a tear welling up inside me as I type. Booo Hooooo!
Geeeee, I can afford a couple of King Airs, but I cant afford to train my pilots. Am I in the wrong business? No other industry has to pay to train their staff. Poor me...BoooHoooo!
And then I have someone comparing safety issues (falling 2X4's) with staff departing to better companies....methinks it's apples and oranges?
And aviation's always a "one-way street". The poor pilot has to fork over coin, or sign a promisary note to the company for training (which is more often than not CRAP training...not Flight Safety or the like) but the company has no such obligation to the pilot. Once we have your money, or your your signature, we have the God given right to treat you like shit. Guess what? Hence the turn-over. Got nothing to do with greener grass elsewhere, it's more the grass here tastes like crap?
Plus, being able to afford a King Air means shit and you should know better.
Your sarcasm and general attitude certainly doesn't help anyone, even less yourself... but that matter is into your own hands and I couldn't care less.
I'm looking for a job! CPL Multi-IFR Class 1 224 TT ... I know, I know
I think my point is: If you cant afford to train your crews, then you CANT afford the aformentioned King Airs? And if you cant keep your crews, you're doing something wrong. As for sarcasm, I think you used the falling 2X4's as an example, not I.
I hear you....I just think you're full of crap!
I hear you....I just think you're full of crap!
