Hi All,
I recently got laid off from my job and find myself thinking about flying as a career. I have always wanted to fly but could never afford it. I will be 30 in a couple of years and want some opinions on getting such a late start in the avaition industry. Is it still realistic to begin at such a late age and expect to be able to make a living in a couple of years?
Also, I am living in Charlottetown PE, and would like to know what experiences anyone has had with training schools there.
Thanks
TO Fly or Not To Fly That is The Question
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costermonger
- Rank 8
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- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:52 pm
Welcome to the forums. First, let me tell you, there's probably going to be a few people here who try to convince you not to try to make a career of aviation. Don't listen to them, but I urge you to make sure you know enough about the industry to make an informed decision. It isn't all hot flight attendants and layovers in exotic places, that's for sure.
BTW, if you're in your late 20's you're not all that far behind. It'll be more than a couple years before you make enough money to call it a living though, that's for sure.
BTW, if you're in your late 20's you're not all that far behind. It'll be more than a couple years before you make enough money to call it a living though, that's for sure.
Thanks for the response.
I do know quite a fair bit about the avation industry.
I also have a university degree so I do have something other then flying as a backup but I just don't want to spend so much money if the chances of finding a job are slim to none.
I also want eventually to get back to Newfoundland to live. ANyone know of may opportunities there? Besides Gander?
I do know quite a fair bit about the avation industry.
I also have a university degree so I do have something other then flying as a backup but I just don't want to spend so much money if the chances of finding a job are slim to none.
I also want eventually to get back to Newfoundland to live. ANyone know of may opportunities there? Besides Gander?
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
" I also want eventually to get back to Newfoundland to live. ANyone know of may opportunities there? Besides Gander? "
There are only two options that I can think of if you want security and protection from crimminal proceedings with a good retirement plan.
Run for political office, once elected you are on the way..
Get hired by Transport Canada, if you can accept being morally corrupt you will rocket to top management within their structure.
Let us know how it goes.
Cat
There are only two options that I can think of if you want security and protection from crimminal proceedings with a good retirement plan.
Run for political office, once elected you are on the way..
Get hired by Transport Canada, if you can accept being morally corrupt you will rocket to top management within their structure.
Let us know how it goes.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
con771,
first off this industry is VERY tough - on the wallet and relationships. if your married with kids, it's going to be an uphill battle.
Second, your in the wrong part of canada for a career in aviation. You can get all your training out there, but as far as jobs go, they are few and far between. The jobs that are there are fought over - Too many pilots. Factor in crap pay, long (if ever) waits on the ramp at the few companies out there (PAL, PE Air, Air Lab). It's not a good part of the country to try to start out in.
If you really want it, you will get it. It's not going to happen quick or cheap. It is a tough career, and most that start their training don't make it. Those that truely want to fly for a living do (or those with a horse shoe up their ass).
Oh, and don't worry about your age, your still young yet.
Cheers.
first off this industry is VERY tough - on the wallet and relationships. if your married with kids, it's going to be an uphill battle.
Second, your in the wrong part of canada for a career in aviation. You can get all your training out there, but as far as jobs go, they are few and far between. The jobs that are there are fought over - Too many pilots. Factor in crap pay, long (if ever) waits on the ramp at the few companies out there (PAL, PE Air, Air Lab). It's not a good part of the country to try to start out in.
If you really want it, you will get it. It's not going to happen quick or cheap. It is a tough career, and most that start their training don't make it. Those that truely want to fly for a living do (or those with a horse shoe up their ass).
Oh, and don't worry about your age, your still young yet.
Cheers.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
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inthomerker
- Rank 1
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:36 am
con771,
Apparently we have a little in common - degrees, enough of a passion for aviation that we sift through the crap on this site for a bit of good advice, and finally, the hope that one day we'll be able to go home to Newfoundland.
All I can say is if you want it bad enough it'll happen - that's what gets me up in the morning.
Let us know how it goes.
Many cheers.
Apparently we have a little in common - degrees, enough of a passion for aviation that we sift through the crap on this site for a bit of good advice, and finally, the hope that one day we'll be able to go home to Newfoundland.
All I can say is if you want it bad enough it'll happen - that's what gets me up in the morning.
Let us know how it goes.
Many cheers.
First, take a look around on this forum.
This is a brutal brutal brutal industry if you haven't already gathered so. There are A LOT of unemployed pilots out there.
That's why companies can get away with getting pilots to do all sorts of outrageous things like paying for PPCs, working for free, getting you to do slave labor on the ramp for a few years.
And once you ever start flying (if you ever do), you can look forward to high school student wages for quite a while.
Your university degree will mean crap... it will probably work against you.
Canadian aviation is a Redneck industry that has a real small town mantality. Sorry to say it, but it's true.
If you're going to start training, just go into it with your eyes wide open and know what you are getting into.
If your school starts giving you all the BS about pilot shortages, the need for EFIS training or how they train to "Airline Standards" (that's one always makes me laugh), or whatever BS they're dreaming up these days, run like hell out there.
Their BS is a very bad sign and not a good way to start a relationship, but it's indicative of the BS that basically describes Canadian aviation and what you'll have to endure once you have your licenses.
A good school will give you an honest assessment of the industry. If they don't, they've already broken your trust.
Go find your self a good school that I'll teach you something about bush flying like Air Hart in BC if they're still around.
Don't waste your time with 20 year old instructors in their dorky white shirts who are just looking at you as a way to pay their rent and build time.
Again, know what you're getting into.
Aviation is a very cruel mistress, but if you're lucky, well connected, a little bit rich you might just make it!!!!!!!!
This is a brutal brutal brutal industry if you haven't already gathered so. There are A LOT of unemployed pilots out there.
That's why companies can get away with getting pilots to do all sorts of outrageous things like paying for PPCs, working for free, getting you to do slave labor on the ramp for a few years.
And once you ever start flying (if you ever do), you can look forward to high school student wages for quite a while.
Your university degree will mean crap... it will probably work against you.
Canadian aviation is a Redneck industry that has a real small town mantality. Sorry to say it, but it's true.
If you're going to start training, just go into it with your eyes wide open and know what you are getting into.
If your school starts giving you all the BS about pilot shortages, the need for EFIS training or how they train to "Airline Standards" (that's one always makes me laugh), or whatever BS they're dreaming up these days, run like hell out there.
Their BS is a very bad sign and not a good way to start a relationship, but it's indicative of the BS that basically describes Canadian aviation and what you'll have to endure once you have your licenses.
A good school will give you an honest assessment of the industry. If they don't, they've already broken your trust.
Go find your self a good school that I'll teach you something about bush flying like Air Hart in BC if they're still around.
Don't waste your time with 20 year old instructors in their dorky white shirts who are just looking at you as a way to pay their rent and build time.
Again, know what you're getting into.
Aviation is a very cruel mistress, but if you're lucky, well connected, a little bit rich you might just make it!!!!!!!!
Why would you say that? Probably the most informed advice comes from people who did not make it. They didn't get their first break, they never got past the ramp etc...costermonger wrote:...First, let me tell you, there's probably going to be a few people here who try to convince you not to try to make a career of aviation. Don't listen to them ...
Why should he listen to a 27 year old Metro captain telling about his 60K salary and above average conditions? He's not representative of the industry.
con771, although I do not know what sort of degree you hold, just keep this in mind. I had a degree and went into flying. At first it was OK.I was able to put up with a lot of the ups and down that the industry had to offer.
Soon enough, the low salaries got to me. Knowing that my education could get me a 60K job was enough to demotivate me. I left aviation and have never regretted the decision. Since, I've passed up flying Metros, corporate Jets and even an Airbus 320...I never look back.Some of my flying frineds who started in the same years now fly Dash-8s and Jets, but most have quit or are still flying the same twins for low pay.
Make sure that this Flying urge is not just temporary because you might just be able to fix it with private flying...Think about it, either rent or own, you can pack the car with food and family and head to wherever you wish, spend as much time as you like and come back to your "House"...
That's the other perspective.
Good Luck
In the business world, the rearview mirror is always clearer than the windshield...W. Buffett-
Dyck Hertz
- Rank 2
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:21 pm
Hey there con771! The aviation industry is a "harsh master" Although I love my job and I wouldn't do anything else, some days I wonder why I'm doing this. Some of the things we have to put up with are: Students who don't show up for their lessons: Bad weather days that preclude you from flying and earning money: Dealing with other fellow instructors who are very aggressive, devious and sneaky in their dealings The list goes on and on. con771 you can definitely make it in this industry but what price are you willing to pay? We all do things in life which we hope will make us happy. Some people take up bodybuilding others pursue the arts. Some take up a lifelong commitment to help people in poor countries and others aspire to have a nice home with a white picket fence, a dog, a spouse and 2.3 kids. For most of us here on this forum we've decided that a job in aviation would make us happy, so we started climbing this career ladder. The sad part is that once you reach the top you realize that the ladder is leaning against the wrong wall. con771 if you want to enter the aviation industry be prepared to put up with a lot of BS. Also make sure that you are modest and humble in your dealings with others. For me aviation is in my blood and its a passion. For now I'll stick with it. 
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costermonger
- Rank 8
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- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:52 pm
I'm not talking about people who didn't make it, they're very important to hear from, I'm talking about the "let's create a pilot shortage by discouraging people from ever starting" types. People who think it's in their best interest to prevent other people from trying to make a go of aviation, even though they themselves are still sticking with the industry.Yoyoma wrote:Why would you say that? Probably the most informed advice comes from people who did not make it.
They're the opposite of the flight schools that talk up the industry endlessly to attract people who aren't as well informed. The key to both situations is to become informed, but there's a big difference between informing someone and attempting to discourage them.
I wish someone had discouraged me...
As much as I love airplanes, I've written Canadian aviation off as one big mistake. I now make way more money than I could ever make as a pilot (including one who flies jets), I have lots of time to spend with my wife and daughter, and I don't have to live in ugly sh*t hole towns.
As I said before, go into it with your eyes wide open. I left the industry so I'm not trying to scare away potential competition if that's what you're thinking.
Basically don't be afraid to gamble more than you can loose.
Ask yourself this: Can I afford to invest $40,000 in training and a couple years of my life and a whole whack of time and afford to never see a single return for all my money and time.
If you answered, no, then think very carefully before going ahead.
If yes, then what the hell you've got nothing to loose. Go for it.
My advice to you if you really want to know: Go phone up some potential employeers, small charter companies.
Ask them how many resumes they get a day (you will be shocked). Ask them how many pilots come knocking on their doors looking for work each day.
Then ask them how many pilots they expect to hire this year.
Next, ask them if they hire new pilots with 200 hours.
Phone around, and get it straight from the horse's mouth.
As much as I love airplanes, I've written Canadian aviation off as one big mistake. I now make way more money than I could ever make as a pilot (including one who flies jets), I have lots of time to spend with my wife and daughter, and I don't have to live in ugly sh*t hole towns.
As I said before, go into it with your eyes wide open. I left the industry so I'm not trying to scare away potential competition if that's what you're thinking.
Basically don't be afraid to gamble more than you can loose.
Ask yourself this: Can I afford to invest $40,000 in training and a couple years of my life and a whole whack of time and afford to never see a single return for all my money and time.
If you answered, no, then think very carefully before going ahead.
If yes, then what the hell you've got nothing to loose. Go for it.
My advice to you if you really want to know: Go phone up some potential employeers, small charter companies.
Ask them how many resumes they get a day (you will be shocked). Ask them how many pilots come knocking on their doors looking for work each day.
Then ask them how many pilots they expect to hire this year.
Next, ask them if they hire new pilots with 200 hours.
Phone around, and get it straight from the horse's mouth.
Dear costermonger,costermonger wrote:People who think it's in their best interest to prevent other people from trying to make a go of aviation, even though they themselves are still sticking with the industry.
You have a valid point. I've known instructors, who need a student base to survive, say that we don't need so many pilots. My approach is a little different. Whenever someone is deciding to go fly up north or instruct I always recommend the instructor route, eventhough they could be my competition someday. As someone else already mentioned aviation is a harsh master. Success in the Canadian aviation industry is possible but there's a price. For some people it's perfectly fine to neglect the important things in life. As an example I know some businessmen who think it's perfectly fine to anger employees, annoy customers, ruin family relationships and make enemies just for the sake of 'making it'. That is the price they chose to pay. It's the same thing in our industry. You CAN make it but what is your price?
[quote=" You CAN make it but what is your price? [/quote]
"CAN" is way too strong. It implies that succeeding in aviation is 100 percent possible. The part about prostituting yourself is more than true however.
There is no such thing as 100 percent will happen in anything in life, and in Canadian aviation that is especially true.
Just think of all the poor Rampies at Skyword thinking: "Man I've finally made it. The airplane is just a month or two away. I'm finally in! It's a sure thing now!"
This after having worked the ramp for upwards of a year and probably having spent several months lurking in Thompson.
Then, Boom! the companies goes under and 2 year of their lives, maybe more, maybe a bit less, all wasted away for min wage in an ugly Northern town.
The more accurate thing to say would be:
"You MAY make it, but what's your price?"
There are way too many unkowns to ever say otherwise.
[/quote]"CAN" is way too strong. It implies that succeeding in aviation is 100 percent possible. The part about prostituting yourself is more than true however.
There is no such thing as 100 percent will happen in anything in life, and in Canadian aviation that is especially true.
Just think of all the poor Rampies at Skyword thinking: "Man I've finally made it. The airplane is just a month or two away. I'm finally in! It's a sure thing now!"
This after having worked the ramp for upwards of a year and probably having spent several months lurking in Thompson.
Then, Boom! the companies goes under and 2 year of their lives, maybe more, maybe a bit less, all wasted away for min wage in an ugly Northern town.
The more accurate thing to say would be:
"You MAY make it, but what's your price?"
There are way too many unkowns to ever say otherwise.
Point well taken classiv. It's true that even the best can end up being casualties. However if you don't try you'll never know. "One hundred percent of the shots you don't take will not go in the net."classiv wrote:
"CAN" is way too strong. It implies that succeeding in aviation is 100 percent possible.
The more accurate thing to say would be:
"You MAY make it, but what's your price?"
I disagree.
Of all the people I have trained or worked with, everyone who has stuck it out and had a basic set of skills in the airpane and in life has made it to at least a liveable stage in aviation.
Granted you may not make it to the majors, but given hard work, decent social skills, and a lot of patience, you will land a job that can start to pay the bills. This process takes time - and that 's the kicker...if you are expecting things to happen fast, they aint gonna happen. But it you are willing to wait it out, move anywhere in the country, and are ALWAYS pursuing the job, it will happen.
Or at least that's been my experience. There's no secret to "making it" out of instructing - just keeping a clean slate and not relaxing on the job hunt - EVER.
Of all the people I have trained or worked with, everyone who has stuck it out and had a basic set of skills in the airpane and in life has made it to at least a liveable stage in aviation.
Granted you may not make it to the majors, but given hard work, decent social skills, and a lot of patience, you will land a job that can start to pay the bills. This process takes time - and that 's the kicker...if you are expecting things to happen fast, they aint gonna happen. But it you are willing to wait it out, move anywhere in the country, and are ALWAYS pursuing the job, it will happen.
Or at least that's been my experience. There's no secret to "making it" out of instructing - just keeping a clean slate and not relaxing on the job hunt - EVER.
"Will happen"
Again, you're using words that are way too strong, as if you have a crystal ball.
I really hope you're not telling your current students or ex-students that it "will happen" provided they do the things you said.
There is a fine line between being positive and missrepresenting the industry to prospective students.
If they do the things you said, there is "hope" and a "chance" it may happen for them, but that's about it. To say anything else is deceptive and harmful to the industry by bringing it down to the level of used car salesmen.
This industry is too volatile to say "will happen". All it takes is a another global pandemic, which some experts say may hit us soon, and the airline industry will be wiped out. And lets not even talk about how insurance rates are making it really tough for newbies to get in as float drivers.
As for a livable wage... define livable. If you're 18 and single, you can surive on a 1000 a month or less I suppose.
Try doing that with a mortgage, wife and kids. I couldn't even live on the starting salary for an Westjet FO...
And that's a guy with probably 6 to 7 years of solid industry experience...
Again, you're using words that are way too strong, as if you have a crystal ball.
I really hope you're not telling your current students or ex-students that it "will happen" provided they do the things you said.
There is a fine line between being positive and missrepresenting the industry to prospective students.
If they do the things you said, there is "hope" and a "chance" it may happen for them, but that's about it. To say anything else is deceptive and harmful to the industry by bringing it down to the level of used car salesmen.
This industry is too volatile to say "will happen". All it takes is a another global pandemic, which some experts say may hit us soon, and the airline industry will be wiped out. And lets not even talk about how insurance rates are making it really tough for newbies to get in as float drivers.
As for a livable wage... define livable. If you're 18 and single, you can surive on a 1000 a month or less I suppose.
Try doing that with a mortgage, wife and kids. I couldn't even live on the starting salary for an Westjet FO...
And that's a guy with probably 6 to 7 years of solid industry experience...
Desksgo - LMAO...that's classic.
Class iv;
Let me ask you this - have you ever known anyone in aviation that didn't make it (and I don't mean just to the majors) becuase of any other reason than quitting? And what magical thing did those who made it have? Luck? Fate? Extremely good looks?
I'd rather believe that hard work, persistance, and skill (maybe a bit of luck to speed things along) are what makes the difference. But what the hell, maybe it was just my lucky rabbits foot and the fact that I routinely put voodoo curses on all my competition that got me to a liveable stage in aviation.
Or maybe it was that I worked my ass off, treated my coworkers and students with respect, learned to live on less money than when I was 18 years old (now with 2 kids and a wife), and had the support of a amazing wife and family.
Nah...I'll take option #1. And maybe I'll sell used cars or tell fortunes in the meantime (aparantly you think I'd be good at that).
There's also a fine line between being realistic and just being bitter...everyone I know (including myself) has been to the point where they wonder if they should just pull the plug and switch up careers...but damn am I glad I stuck with it. I'd never say it's an easy road - but I'd also never tell a student or someone seeking advice that hard work won't pay off - what kind of message does that send?
Class iv;
Let me ask you this - have you ever known anyone in aviation that didn't make it (and I don't mean just to the majors) becuase of any other reason than quitting? And what magical thing did those who made it have? Luck? Fate? Extremely good looks?
I'd rather believe that hard work, persistance, and skill (maybe a bit of luck to speed things along) are what makes the difference. But what the hell, maybe it was just my lucky rabbits foot and the fact that I routinely put voodoo curses on all my competition that got me to a liveable stage in aviation.
Or maybe it was that I worked my ass off, treated my coworkers and students with respect, learned to live on less money than when I was 18 years old (now with 2 kids and a wife), and had the support of a amazing wife and family.
Nah...I'll take option #1. And maybe I'll sell used cars or tell fortunes in the meantime (aparantly you think I'd be good at that).
There's also a fine line between being realistic and just being bitter...everyone I know (including myself) has been to the point where they wonder if they should just pull the plug and switch up careers...but damn am I glad I stuck with it. I'd never say it's an easy road - but I'd also never tell a student or someone seeking advice that hard work won't pay off - what kind of message does that send?
Pugster,
What you're saying is akin to those neo-liberal types who argue that everyone can be milionares if they just work hard and put some effort into it.
The world is not that simple.
My point is that things are way too complex to ever tell prospective students that it "will happen" for them.
Again, you don't have a crystal ball and neither do I. I don't know you personally, but I know there are some people out there who will do and say anything to get students in the door.
That I think is just horrible for the industry. It really hurts it.
With a really strong work ethic and drive, I would say you have a chance and there is hope you can make it. But that's it.
There are way too many other variables involved that can tip the scales for you like luck, how much money you have have, family connections, the state of the industry at the time, etc.
What you're saying is akin to those neo-liberal types who argue that everyone can be milionares if they just work hard and put some effort into it.
The world is not that simple.
My point is that things are way too complex to ever tell prospective students that it "will happen" for them.
Again, you don't have a crystal ball and neither do I. I don't know you personally, but I know there are some people out there who will do and say anything to get students in the door.
That I think is just horrible for the industry. It really hurts it.
With a really strong work ethic and drive, I would say you have a chance and there is hope you can make it. But that's it.
There are way too many other variables involved that can tip the scales for you like luck, how much money you have have, family connections, the state of the industry at the time, etc.
Couldn't agree with you more on that point...classiv wrote:Again, you don't have a crystal ball and neither do I. I don't know you personally, but I know there are some people out there who will do and say anything to get students in the door.
That I think is just horrible for the industry. It really hurts it.
And I suppose nothing is sure thing in this world, but aviation is no different than any other career in that aspect...
Cheers
