Flying in -FZRA

[Cat Driver]

In particular this is going out to "Cat Driver" who always likes raise his hand to the teacher for attention! And the other of you....."get real"....among other stupid responses to a very good question!

Just when you start thinking you know it all, as I said to Cat Driver, sit back and think for a bit before you take a chance at making yourself appear.....ignorant....

Because I pointed out that taking off in freezing rain can be a deadly decision I am " Ignorant " ?

[HighT5]

The answer from fanspeed's post...

"Conclusion
Takeoff into known freezing drizzle and/or light freezing rain is outside of the flight envelope for which any airplane currently operating today is certificated. Not only is it unwise to operate in such conditions, it is also unsafe, and based on the best information available at this time, also illegal."

Has anyone been violated for this?

[Cough Syrup]

If you follow your holdover times for the particular precip and fluid type, then how is it illegal?

(more of a rhetorical question I guess)

[Double Wasp]

or you could just ask nicely here and someone might tell ya what the crosswind limit is on their particular aircraft,

How many airplanes have a crosswind " limit "

There are definitely few airplanes around where the number listed in the front of the book is the legal limit, the Dash 8 being one of them. The point being one should not assume all aircraft have max crosswind listed as "demonstrated". Also not all pilots have the skills to demonstrate the max demonstrated on every airplane.

In short know your airplane's limitations and your own.

Now back to the topic.

Cheers
DW

[Liquid Charlie]

I think there needs to be a division here between transport and light aircraft - certain kinds of freezing precip is dealt with on a daily basis in the transport category world - I remember the famous ice storm in the late 90's - very few operators missed a beat except for delays in the deice line ups - performance is what it's all about - we all know from our basic wx training freezing rain means warm air aloft and usually within the first cpl thousand feet (listen to the pireps) - freezing drizzle - not so much and you might encounter so pretty heavy icing for 5 or 6 thousand feet --

Airplanes not certified for type four -- go to the bar -- could you meet the "clean wing" with type one -- not likely - under what's weird or what - ice pellets are the worst situation - very little holdover time even with type 4

This is all stuff you guys should be learning in your deicing courses and for the private guys and owners of high performance aircraft - do some reading and even pay to have a deicing course - just because you have an ifr ticket does not mean you have all the information that could keep you alive --

the most critical aircraft are the cabin class piston twins, unpressurized turbo props and maybe even the pressurized ones as well - ironically where most of us find ourselves with the least amount of experience - so be aware - be crafty and always have that way out ---- damn I'm starting to sound old -- fu_k

[2.5milefinal]

This is all stuff you guys should be learning in your deicing courses and for the private guys and owners of high performance aircraft - do some reading and even pay to have a deicing course - just because you have an ifr ticket does not mean you have all the information that could keep you alive --


---- damn I'm starting to sound old -- fu_k

...exactly

Thats because you are getting old. But that just means you where mostly likely doing things right which allowed you to get old.
I am always a little shocked (I shouldn't be but I am) with the 703 and 704 world when comes to this subject.

[fanspeed]

I think there needs to be a division here between transport and light aircraft - certain kinds of freezing precip is dealt with on a daily basis in the transport category world - I remember the famous ice storm in the late 90's - very few operators missed a beat except for delays in the deice line ups - performance is what it's all about - we all know from our basic wx training freezing rain means warm air aloft and usually within the first cpl thousand feet (listen to the pireps) - freezing drizzle - not so much and you might encounter so pretty heavy icing for 5 or 6 thousand feet --

Airplanes not certified for type four -- go to the bar -- could you meet the "clean wing" with type one -- not likely - under what's weird or what - ice pellets are the worst situation - very little holdover time even with type 4

This is all stuff you guys should be learning in your deicing courses and for the private guys and owners of high performance aircraft - do some reading and even pay to have a deicing course - just because you have an ifr ticket does not mean you have all the information that could keep you alive --

the most critical aircraft are the cabin class piston twins, unpressurized turbo props and maybe even the pressurized ones as well - ironically where most of us find ourselves with the least amount of experience - so be aware - be crafty and always have that way out ---- damn I'm starting to sound old -- fu_k

My statement stands. I am not aware of any aircraft which are certified to fly in freezing precipitation, including those certified under part 25. Just because there are holdover times, and icing courses, and that is what your company has been doing all these years, .....does not mean the aircraft is certified.

[Slappy the Squirrel]

I'm not trying to be rude, and I certainly don't know for certain about which aircraft are and which ones aren't certified for flight in freezing precipitation. But I do find it strange that if NO airplane is certified for it, how come all the airlines do it? ie. Air Canada, Jazz, Westjet, Transat, etc. They ALL operate during freezing drizzle, ice pellets, etc. And we all know that these are straight-laced companies that do things by the book...

Does every single one of those airlines intentionally break the law??

[Liquid Charlie]

Aircraft are certified to fly in know icing conditions nothing stated about happens on the ground - thus the validity of deicing and anti-icing -- I may be wrong but icing is defined by it's intensity not by type of precip -- what is happening here is that people are taking for granted that freezing rain automatically generates an icing condition that can't be dealt with which is absolutely wrong - and yes every airline I know part 121/705 launches in freezing precip -- what usually is the limiting factor is the runway conditions and not flight conditions -

So -- can you legally fly in (better description -- "through" rather than "in") freezing rain -- absolutely - would you do it in a Piper or Cessna cabin class twin or as pointed out initially a type of King Air -- no way --

what you should do and what you shouldn't do is entirely up to you as a pilot - just because something is legal does not mean it's always safe -- this is a great thread that follows Doc's dumbing down footsteps -- TC is trying it's damnedest to remove most of the decision making from the flight deck but at the end of the day we all know where the buck stops ----

[trey kule]

This has been interesting, and as I am finding more and more, the replacement of common sense by CARS, AFMs, and mother TC is scary....Glad to see someone else made the destinction between the OP's king air example and heavy equipment. So sad that it has to be pointed out for people to stop using the heavy airline equipment as equal in capability to the small aircraft.

- be crafty and always have that way out ----

Interesting. So you take off in a small twin into freezing rain. What exactly would be your options as you climb out and suddenly find your climb rate decreased, the level of contamination increasing.....seems to me that is one of those old...throw it our there.trusims that people accept without thinking...Maybe, just maybe, it is better than being crafty and trying to find a way out, not to go into it...and when you are sitting on the ground, that is a choice you can make...it is much easier to stay out of these situations, than to get out of them.

just because something is legal does not mean it's always safe -- this is a great thread that follows Doc's dumbing down footsteps -- TC is trying it's damnedest to remove most of the decision making from the flight deck but at the end of the day we all know where the buck stops ----

+1....and if I may add, just because you tried it once or twice and got away with it does not mean you have experience...just luck. Might run out the next time.

[square]

Freezing precipitation is where you get into the realm of severe icing -- no aircraft is certified for severe icing.

That being said, if you can visually avoid the freezing precip you're okay.

[aerodude]

...some types of airplanes and may in fact include freezing drizzle and/or light freezing rain (other than the Cessna 208 which prohibits takeoff, flight into, and landing in freezing drizzle and/or freezing rain). Other AFMs only include in-flight detection and exit strategies.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... er-757.htm

[skybaron]

Freezing precipitation is where you get into the realm of severe icing -- no aircraft is certified for severe icing.

That being said, if you can visually avoid the freezing precip you're okay.

Bingo! And, all what Fanspeed said is correct.

...some types of airplanes and may in fact include freezing drizzle and/or light freezing rain (other than the Cessna 208 which prohibits takeoff, flight into, and landing in freezing drizzle and/or freezing rain). Other AFMs only include in-flight detection and exit strategies.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... er-757.htm

From the link:


At the present time, no design standards exist for icing conditions outside of FAR 25, Appendix C; thus, no airplanes have been certified to icing conditions that exceed FAR 25, Appendix C. This includes takeoff in freezing drizzle and/or light freezing rain. No manufacturer has conducted the required analyses or tests to show that the existing IPS are effective or that the airplane performance and handling qualities are acceptable when operating in SLD conditions.

[Liquid Charlie]

Interesting. So you take off in a small twin into freezing rain

-- like all written word it can be misinterpreted -- the statement "be crafty" was a general all encompassing statement on decision making --

Now back to the regs -- yes -- no aircraft is certified for anything above light icing for type having said that I believe that the expectation is that you have the ability to get out of any icing conditions and that means most part 121/705 and certain 704 jets have that ability if there is freezing rain reported on the ground - if that were not the case all air operations would be shut down as soon as several icing was mentioned in the forecast -

Now from my point of view I will try and put this to rest

providing your type is certified for known icing - don't forget - type is the key and what is light icing for you might be a trace for someone else.

1/ if your airplane is not certified for type 4 you can not make it to the end of the runway in time to initiate a take off - strike one -- if you do not have the performance to climb or descend through a layer of know icing you can't do it -- strike 2 -- if you are so stupid to disregard all of that then - strike 3 - and you will get some notoriety on this form but not under general --

Freezing rain does happen and from my experience with the right equipment is a non issue except for runway conditions - in the list of priorities the icing part of freezing rain is not number one - it's always runway conditions - this is the opposite for the 703 aircraft - since freezing rain is such a narrow cross section of the column of air you need to climb or descend through - so the transition for a jet from cold to warm air is seconds - it isn't uncommon to depart in freezing rain and collect just a trace of ice for those few seconds - anyone who flyies a jet will know this - this is directed more at the 703/private peeps --

Now the pit you can fall into is freezing drizzle - the icing layer can and does last for considerably longer - and you will be getting icing from clear to mixed then rime in continuous light to moderate until you transition to clear air or colder temps -- by far this is far more subtle and likely far more dangerous than freezing rain because there is more of a tendency to launch and no warm air to bail you out -

ice build up on your airplane - be very careful - even if the boots have knocked it off there is still a residue of ice remaining - usually collected under wing and just behind the boots - this will effect airflow over your tail - watch your speed and be very careful when you select flap and do it at a safe altitude - drive the airplane on with power - if my memory serves me correctly there was an incident in Alberta that ice was a factor not that long ago - but my mind could be failing me --

on a closing note - don't be afraid to approach that old grey haired guy or even white haired -- wonder when grey to white happens -- haha -- for some feed back or even a story related to something you are trying to deal with -- chances are -- been there done that -- sometimes the open forum becomes a little obtuse so don't be afraid to use the "pm" function -- there are no stupid questions - I'm sure that most of the high timers here would do their best to answer you --

Shit can happen to anyone - lowering the odds is our only defense --

[bronson]

Freezing rain is almost always wx with a short duration, 2 hrs. or so. Have a coffee. If your boss pushes , ask him what part of " f*&k off" he doesn't understand.

[tired of the ground]

In case anyone cares about TC's semi-official view on the subject.

Conclusion
Takeoff into known freezing drizzle and/or light freezing rain is outside of the flight envelope for which any airplane currently operating today is certificated. Not only is it unwise to operate in such conditions, it is also unsafe, and based on the best information available at this time, also illegal.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... er-757.htm

[Liquid Charlie]

This is where the whole subject gets muddied - I agree completely with what TC is saying but everything written is dealing with continuous flight in these conditions not transitioning through them -- that is where the hair is split in this thread - no one in their right mind will go and conduct a flight in any icing conditions that you will be caught acquiring ice on a constant basis - what you are doing is using all the information and deicing/anti-icing equipment available to transition out of all icing conditions - this is something that we all do on a daily basis

The aircraft certification is there to get you out of icing not fly in it ----

The easiest way to stop this practice if it's so dangerous is that TC and all other countries ban the use of anti-icing fluids - publish no holdover times - that would keep everyone on the ground until the sun was shinning -- cool -- I like it -- as long as the winds were also west at less than 5 --

[square]

Freezing rain is almost always wx with a short duration, 2 hrs. or so. Have a coffee. If your boss pushes , ask him what part of " f*&k off" he doesn't understand.

+Like

[hairdo]

This thread made me dig out my 1900 POH to read up on icing conditions. I'm going to quote a bit out of it, so if you hate reading, skip to the next post. Actually, if you hate reading, move on to Youtube or something like that...

"This airplane is approved for flight in icing conditions as defined in 14 CFR Part 25, Appendix C. These conditions do not include, nor were tests conducted in, all icing conditions that may be encountered (e.g., freezing rain, freezing drizzle, mixed conditions, or conditions defined as severe). Some icing conditions not defined in 14 CFR Part 25 have the potential of producing hazardous ice accumulations, which: 1) exceed the capabilities of the airplane's ice protection equipment; and/or 2) create unacceptable airplane performance. Flight into icing conditions which lie outside the 14 CFR-defined conditions is not prohibited; however, pilots must be prepared to divert the flight promptly if hazardous ice accumulations occur."

Now, bear in mind this is from a Beech 1900C. A King Air 100 (for example) may not have the same provision. A Cessna 208 definitely does not have this provision (and you would be wise to keep your butt firmly planted on the ground when the discussed conditions exist!). Regardless, I believe what Beech is saying here, is to use your head. Just because something is not prohibited, does not make it safe to do. Flying in conditions that the aircraft has not been tested for, doesn't mean that the aircraft isn't capable of flying in them, merely that they have no idea as to what the outcome will be! It may work, and it may not. So if you choose to go flying in these conditions, have a plan B. If you can't come up with a suitable plan B, stay put.

Fly safe. Fly smart.

[Raptor256]

If anyone is curious what flying in severe icing (possibly FZRA and FZDZ) can do to a turboprop just look at this photo Its no joke and almost cost this crew their lives. Look aft of the boots.

IMG_0002.jpg (87.17 KiB) Viewed 2235 times

[Ki-ll]

I was doing a bit of research on this today and found this topic, I figured I would share what I have dug up. TC actually does not consider flying in SLD conditions illegal, although these conditions could possible exceed the engineering design criteria, but warns of potential hazards associated with flying in SLD conditions.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... er-757.htm
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... tm#takeoff
In the end of the second part they reiterate:

Author’s note: Part 1 of the above article was published in the ASL 4/2009. It contained the following conclusion.

Takeoff into known freezing drizzle and/or light freezing rain is outside of the flight envelope for which any airplane currently operating today is certificated. Not only is it unwise to operate in such conditions, it is also unsafe, and based on the best information available at this time, also illegal.

Transport Canada (TC) has undertaken a review of the current practice of taking off in freezing precipitation to assess potential hazards and determine whether any regulatory or safety action is required. TC has not reached a final conclusion on this issue, but after reviewing current practices, it has identified important safety information to share in this ASL article and the previous one.

The article is intended to inform operators and flight crews of the potential hazards of taking off in conditions of freezing drizzle and light freezing rain. This article stresses the importance of understanding the hazards associated with operating in icing conditions and the limitations associated with the certification of airplanes for flight into known icing conditions.

At this time, TC has not drawn any firm conclusions on the safety of taking off in freezing drizzle or light freezing rain. However, TC is of the opinion that taking off in freezing drizzle and light or greater intensity freezing rain may be hazardous and, in the case of moderate or heavy freezing rain conditions, these fall outside the protection afforded by de-icing and anti-icing fluids. TC will consult the aviation industry to consider the effectiveness of current regulations and standards.

TC therefore retracts the last sentence of the conclusion and replaces it with a reiteration of the current guidance on this subject. Specifically, operation of an aircraft in conditions of freezing drizzle or freezing rain should be avoided whenever possible.

[Schooner69A]

It is interesting to note that save for pitot heat, none of the jets I flew in the military were anti-iced. That includes the T-33, Tutor, F-86, and the CF-5. (The latter may have had intake anti-ice; I can't remember) However, we were quite circumspect about the weather into which we flew. I think T.O. in any freezing precip was a "no-no", but flight up and down through such layers could be accepted because of the high climb and descent rates. A few tense moments would ensue if you got caught down low (hold, etc) and began to ice up. It is always interesting to pick up wing icing (in any jet), break out on top, and then watch the LE ice ablate during cruise.

John

[complexintentions]

Well, working for an operator with a fairly large number of Boeing and Airbus aircraft - (well ok, the world's largest widebody fleet and the world's largest B777 and A380 operator), this is straight from our (manufacturer-approved) Operations Manual: (bolding mine)

j. Take-off is permitted in light freezing rain but is not permitted in:
1. Moderate or heavy freezing rain.
2. Heavy Ice pellets.
3. Continuous heavy snow.
4. Hail.
5. Any frozen contaminate adhering to any of the aircraft critical surfaces.

I'll be sure to let Flight Ops know tomorrow that there is no aircraft certified for flight in freezing rain, as claimed a couple of times in this thread. I'm sure it will be news to them.

Yeah, I know the OP example was a King Air but these blanket statements are a bit dumb.

There is no substitute for experience and good airmanship. Fly safe.

[lostaviator]

There was a retraction letter from TC after that safety newsletter suggesting flight into -fzra was illegal. Ill try and track it down. Still a good read and my go/no-go judgment is based on my companies approved de-ice program and HOT.

So personally... -FZRA is a no go for me. I have 4 minutes from de-ice end to rotation (it takes more than 4 minutes just to get to the next wing done!). That is not possible for me and my aircraft. -FZDZ I stand some what of a chance.

[YCR_09]

Wow,
The posts on this subject vary so much that it shows the huge variety in levels
of comprehension.

I really liked big Piston's response.

Once upon a time, I was flying a Beech and we very carefully looked at the weather and
decided that while -FZRA was around, we were able to deal with it with diversions, choosing the right flight level,
and watching the ice build up very carefully.

Within an hour of flying, two other aircraft, also without passengers, who were very experienced, and knew of the weather conditions fatally crashed.
It was a moment in time when you hear the radio calls and think of everyone whose husband or father was not coming home.

It was then for the first time, we saw ice build up that neither of us had seen before, it built up around the side windows,
the windshield heat was unable to cope and failed.

We made a lot of good decisions that night, NOT to turn on the deice, we anticipated that it would make it worse not better.

We changed level immediately and with time, even colder, the ice reduced.

We recognized that we were getting super large water droplets that really showed up on the spinner, and extend far back behind
the leading edge boots.

We both monitored the ice build up and what happened when we changed altitude.

The moral of this story is that that -FZRA can vary a great deal and what is forecast may be very different in reality.

There are predictable locations and times of the year when -FZRA can be deadly and when
it becomes time to NOT FLY.

The Northeast icing corridor and perhaps the worst place is on the west coast of BC are predictable
for the super large freezing rain droplets that are anything other (-) FZRA.

NASA and the FAA have some excellent video's on the subject.