Question about upgrading to Captain

[CRJ-705]

Do any airlines upgrade F/O's to captain positions on turbine or multi engine aircraft without there ATPL? Most captain jobs I see on here for a King Air for example require your ATPL.

How are you suppose to upgrade to captain positions without your ATPL? Im having concerns about getting my ATPL in the future.

[jpilot77]

You cannot be a PIC of a 12, 500 lb and above aircraft without your ATPL. On a side note the FAA is thinking about implementing the same requirement for FOs on these same category of aircraft.

[jpilot77]

Actually I think the FAA is thinking about the FO ATPL requirement for US regional and major airlines.

[Howitzer]

jpilot77, you're incorrect.

This discussion has been on here before about requirements to sit in the left seat (Captain) of difference Aircraft Types.

Weight is NOT a factor. It has to do with certification of the aircraft, more specifically, whether or not it was certified as requiring 2 pilots to fly the dang thing. Therefore, if it is a requirement of the certification of the aircraft, you're required to have an ATPL to be a captain of this aircraft.

Type ratings have to do with aircraft performance (high performance) or minimum flight crew requirement of 2 as well as a couple of other things, but not weight.

[jpilot77]

I stand corrected.

[CRJ-705]

say for example you work at perimeter, first air or any airline similar as a F/O for your first job. Would they promote you to captain eventually on an aircraft even though the only PIC time you have is from your flight training? im just confused as how guys go about gaining MPIC time when most job offers I see posted on here already require MPIC time.

[jpilot77]

That's the problem to a certain extent with getting a job right out of flight school where you will be a first officer on a relatively large machine, as opposed to some one who gets a job as an instructor or on a smaller machine where they can get PIC time. Sometimes these people do have a hard time getting upgraded.

[CRJ-705]

yeah I can see how it would be. College grads that get on with Jazz are almost screwed in the future in a way. They will have lots of hours but no PIC time so then what? No calls from Air Canada or Westjet or upgrading to captain at Jazz.

I guess getting on with an airline that has a navajo or something similar is gold so you can get upgraded to captain and get your MPIC, or instruct. Any other thoughts on this?

[trey kule]

It seems the OP has an understanding that far to many failed to consider....

Sage advice...and free......never take a job with a company unless PIC upgrade is possible....

[Slappy the Squirrel]

Most, if not all of the companies you mentioned will require an ATPL for an upgrade. There is a way to get some of the PIC time. Most of the companies you mentioned are able to do "PIC under supervision" , which helps make up 100 hours of PIC towards that 250 that you need.

That still leaves many people close to 50 PIC hours short if they only had their CPL signed off with the minimum PIC hours. I know people that have gone to rent a C152 for the the remainder of the time, or try to find work ferrying small airplanes for people. Basically they have to be creative and/or rich.

[xsbank]

The FAA's rule proposal is 1500 hours and an ATP to sit in the right seat of an airline, fractional or Part 135 operation. They propose to make an exception for college aviation grads to only have 1000 hours before the ATP and for military, 750.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The FAA's rule proposal is 1500 hours and an ATP to sit in the right seat of an airline, fractional or Part 135 operation. They propose to make an exception for college aviation grads to only have 1000 hours before the ATP and for military, 750.

I believe the ATP requirement will only apply to Part 121 (ie CAR 705 equivalent), not part 135 (ie CAR 703 equivalent)

[iflyforpie]

The great irony is, being an instructor is the best way to get an ATPL. Nowhere else can you get paid for logging PIC night cross country while flying a single engine piston aircraft.

As for MPIC, there are a few operations where you can get it without needing to be an F/O or already have a bunch of MPIC. Flying Apaches doing photography, 337 on fire patrol, even a few Islanders kicking around doing charters, teaching MIFR ratings, and of course the all-mighty Navajo. Lots of those are get your foot in the door kind of jobs giving you just enough to have a shot at some 100 MPIC jobs or after a really good year a 500 MPIC job.

[CRJ-705]

so are all the captain jobs posted on here the requirements for direct entry captains or are F/O's in that particular company expected to meet the same requirments as posted in the ad?

the only way it seems to get MPIC time is either on a Navajo (because most airlines dont already require previous MPIC time or much PIC time in general) or instructing on a multi. Am i wrong?

[jpilot77]

If you had the choice in a first job between one that would get you PIC (or even better Multi-PIC) or a first officer job that wouldn't I would tell you to go with the former. Now if you only had a job offer for a first officer job, I would take it and worry about the ATPL requirements when you get close to upgrade time.

[Jack In The Box]

To answer the OPs question, I do not know how it works elsewhere, but here at Perimeter you can upgrade to the metro 2 with no ATPL

Try and get into a job that will upgrade you with your current pic time. If you're concerned about it, ask during the interview

[CRJ-705]

To answer the OPs question, I do not know how it works elsewhere, but here at Perimeter you can upgrade to the metro 2 with no ATPL

Try and get into a job that will upgrade you with your current pic time. If you're concerned about it, ask during the interview

so a fresh 200hr pilot can eventually become captain on the metro with only his 100 pic time at perimeter?

[C-GGGQ]

Yes the Metro 2 is a certified single pilot aircraft. The Metro 3 is two crew. You can upgrade to Captain on the two with no ATPL but not the 3. Perimeter also has bag runs on the Baron/ Travelair which you can bid on to get more MPIC time to sign off your ATPL's if you are short.

[sakism]

There have been many pilots at my company who have not had an ATPL when they first moved left seat in a King Air 200.

They are expected to be close to the requirements and to have the exams written. With the majors hiring so many lately this is a trend which is not likely to stop in the near future.

[snoopy]

The King Air does not require two pilots by Type Certificate.
Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[TheStig]

so are all the captain jobs posted on here the requirements for direct entry captains or are F/O's in that particular company expected to meet the same requirments as posted in the ad?

the only way it seems to get MPIC time is either on a Navajo (because most airlines dont already require previous MPIC time or much PIC time in general) or instructing on a multi. Am i wrong?

Generally yes, the reason for most of the ads you see looking for Direct Entry Captains are due to companies not having any FO's ready to upgrade.

It's been a while since I completed my ATPL but I don't recall a high MPIC requirement. Night PIC x/c seems to generally be the hold up. Therefore, if you are in the process of completing your Private/Commercial licenses with the intention of holding an Airline Transport Pilot License later in your career, my advice would be to complete as much of your required Cross-country time building at night.

Something else which hasn't been mentioned on this thread (but in many others like it), are insurance requirements. Often companies require more experience than other companies to meet the insurance requirements of their customers (see the Contrails Thread).

[FL280]

.

[X-Savior]

I find it very interesting that all CPL pilots fresh out of school feel they either should go instruct or go right seat in a king air or navajo.

[square]

If you want MPIC fast, don't take a job on a two-crew aircraft. But if you want a job on a two-crew aircraft, just take it. It'll take years to upgrade but you will be a more involved crew member on that type and will probably learn more refined skills and have greater responsibility. Does it really suck to be well prepared for a job with big responsibilities? Well no, it's actually a great position to be in. Take the job that works with your life and your long-term goals, there's no need to rush to get qualified for the airlines they don't pay very well the first two years anyway.

[trey kule]

This is why EVERY operator is seeking direct entry Captains right now

A sage observation. I wonder how many of those wanting to stream up the ladder will understand that.

Is there any new CPL pilots out there who just learned to fly...well..just because they wanted to fly?. Without taking Skyair college's career planning 101.
And is there any who just want to fly without considering how it affects their career progression. You know. Just do a good job as an end in itself.
From what I have seen these last few years, if new CPLs put in about 1/4 of the energy they do planning and advancing their career, in actually trying to be a better pilot and employee, they would be farther ahead. It seems it is all about meeting the minimimums for everything...ATPL, MPIC, major carriers requirements, left seat of this or that plane...just meet the minimimums and move on up...Instruct?..just a way to put in the hours..dont worry about the students.. just remember from career plannnng 101 to tell the CFI you really really want to instruct and teach..It is not about just logging the hours as a career move.
It is all going to change, I believe. The FAA has seen the light. And I expect TC will soon too so there is going to be a whole bunch of right seat streamers who bypassed all their classmates with an immediate right seat and a smile on their face, watching their former classmates and buddies, slide directly into the left seat. Try getting anyone to hire you for a left seat with 2500TT of which 2400 is dual or SIC time...."just here to get my ticket stamped...do you mind helping out/"

PIC is king..doesnt matter what type of plane or flying (with the possible exception of instructing). And working well with others. Honesty, trustworthiness, maturity, responsability and punctuailty are every bit as important as log book enteries.

Others have said it many times before..Enjoy the journey...There are many scumbag operators out there lurking to take advantage of the streamers....work for nothing. Pay for your PPC....join the gang....you will move to the top faster...

My rant for the day.