ACPA off to arbitration

[Fanblade]

Your instincts are ignoring the uncompromising ideology of the current federal government and the seedy eagerness of Air Canada to take maximum advantage of it.

Rockie,

The arbitrator is bound by the jurisprudence. The test for not applying the jurisprudence requires the MOA to be irrational or illogical. The test will not be met.

The benchmark the arbitrator will almost certainly use to determine where the parties would have ended up if left to their own devices is TA1.

ACPA has tried very hard to avoid the implementation of TA1. They failed. In fact the likelihood of success has always been slim. Time to accept, bite the bullet, and seek ways to ammend TA1 so that it is more palatable.

[Rockie]

The test for not applying the jurisprudence requires the MOA to be irrational or illogical. The test will not be met.

There's an awful lot this government (and Air Canada) does that's irrational and illogical. I hope you're not hanging your hopes on rational and logical thinking.

[Fanblade]

Rockie,

Read the attached CUPE arbitration. Paragraph 11 and 12 is the jurisprudence. The only difference is FOS.

This was written by E McPherson the head of the labor board. The bold "emphasis added" is hers.

We have been out maneuvered to force us into a TA1 type deal. FOS turns it into a game of horse shoes. Closest wins.

My reference to illogical and irrational was directed at the test in paragraph 12. Not the players involved.

[teacher]

Hey "fanblade", I hope you are on the Negotiations team becase that is the most sense anyone's made on the subject in a while. This is no longer about winning but about minimizing the coming impact. If played smart it could work. Sticking to the same game plan is a recipe for failure.

[Rockie]

This government is hostile to organized labour and doesn't give a rat's ass about jurisprudence. Airline workers still have the right to withdraw their services under Canadian law but that hasn't protected us much has it? This government imposed a contract on the postal workers that was more punishing than what Canada Post had offered.

Stanley is required to pick one offer or the other without modification to comply with the legislation the government enacted that applies ONLY to us and the machinists. Why would anybody believe the government would tolerate a ruling in favour of the workers over the company?

I honestly hope I'm wrong and you're right, but this government and the company's conduct so screams otherwise.

[Fanblade]

Rockie,

I completely understand the sentiment. Once you see collusion it is hard to expect otherwise. And yes we did see collusion between the government and the corporation. The lock out and then legislation was sickening.

The collusion was to prevent us from escaping TA1. Trap us in arbitration which has specific jurisprudence when a previous MOA exists.

The arbitrator at this point just has to follow normal jurisprudence and AC gets what it negotiated in the first place, despite the clamouring of the group.

What the government did do though was throw in a small grenade. FOS. Closest wins. It allows for tweaking which the jurisprudence within interest based arbitration would not have. ( CUPE was interest based so they had their latest TA imposed as is) It also forces negotiations centered on TA1 or allows your opponent to stray as much as you do.

Translation from Lisa the Rat.

Dear ACPA,

Negotiate terms based on TA1. If you don't my arbitrator will kick you in the groin.

Lots a Luv

Lis.


Read paragraph 14 or 15 above. Arbitrators are not supposed to put out ground breaking changes. In our case the benchmark for change is the present contract or TA1. Since they are substantially different the arbitrator will pick one as the benchmark. Based on the jurisprudence, and the specific wording within Bill C33?

I can not see it being anything other than TA1. It could however be the present contract but I think that is a slim eventuality. Very slim.

[Rockie]

Your scenario is the least disgusting of the available options so as I said I hope I am wrong. TA1 contained a number of "blank cheque" clauses that we were supposed to sign and then trust in the respect and generosity of the company to not get thoroughly raped. How do you see the arbitrator dealing with those?

[Fanblade]

Your scenario is the least disgusting of the available options so as I said I hope I am wrong. TA1 contained a number of "blank cheque" clauses that we were supposed to sign and then trust in the respect and generosity of the company to not get thoroughly raped. How do you see the arbitrator dealing with those?

Its an arbitrators wet dream. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

He will pick the closest to TA1, blank cheques and all, assuming the winning side includes them.

He of course will remain seized to handle any conflicts that arise.

Just thinking of the possibilities probably has him flipping through Yachting Magazines.

[rudder]

He of course will remain seized to handle any conflicts that arise.

Just thinking of the possibilities probably has him flipping through Yachting Magazines.

Not every arbitrator fancies himself the de facto CEO of Air Canada.....just MT

[chatman]

This government is hostile to organized labour and doesn't give a rat's ass about jurisprudence. Airline workers still have the right to withdraw their services under Canadian law but that hasn't protected us much has it? This government imposed a contract on the postal workers that was more punishing than what Canada Post had offered.

Stanley is required to pick one offer or the other without modification to comply with the legislation the government enacted that applies ONLY to us and the machinists. Why would anybody believe the government would tolerate a ruling in favour of the workers over the company?

I honestly hope I'm wrong and you're right, but this government and the company's conduct so screams otherwise.

FYI, NO contract has been imposed yet at CanadaPost. The union has been successful in removing 1 govt appointed arbitrators because he did not speak french. And are in the process of getting the 2nd appointed one out.

CP workers have been working without a contract for almost a year.

[tbaylx]

Saw the other day, UAE captain start salary is in the vicinity of 42k/mo? AC start salary is 42k/yr? My wtf flag is raised so high I can't see it any more. Money doesn't buy happiness is true, but neither does a gross retirement.

What!!! $504,000 a year. Where do I sign up??????

Slight misunderstanding there..that would be 42K dirhams/month..which translates to about 11K canadian a month. Better than 42k/year..yeah but a long way from 42K canadian a month. And that's not starting wage either.

[Stu Pidasso]

There have been some obvious changes, since TA1. It looks like the LCC (wet dream) has crumbled under its own weight and the company has change direction to target Scope.

CR is on a mission to spit in our eye.

Going to be a very long summer if AC thinks they can treat Pilots this way.

[bcflyer]

There have been some obvious changes, since TA1. It looks like the LCC (wet dream) has crumbled under its own weight and the company has change direction to target Scope.

I keep hearing about this attack on our scope clause but I have yet to see anything that supports it. The last proposal I saw had the 175's potentially leaving but that was the extent of it. Did I miss a memo somewhere or are you basing your comments on rumours? If AC really planned to pare down the fleet why are they hiring up to 30 pilots a month?

I certainly don't trust CR anymore than the next guy but I simply haven't seen any proposals that support the "gut the scope clause" theory.

[Stu Pidasso]

After TA1 got booted over the horizon, the Company released their "Final Offer," which included moving the Scope line to 119 seats.

They then released their "Final...Final Offer" moving the line to 90 seats.

All using their new catch phrase, something like; "this keeps our Pilots in the top Quartile in North America."

Interesting how Air Canada (claims) its Pilots are measured in the top 25 percent, while every other employee (short of the AME's) are grossly OVERPAID by comparison the the rest of the industry.

Not to mention the countless layers of USELESS Management jobs.

Good luck this summer, they're going to need it!

[hithere]

Moving the scope line to 90 seats will only affect your 15 175's. I wouldn't lose any sleep over that.

[Stu Pidasso]

You might be losing some sleep, if you are in the bottom 200 Pilots ( = 15 Fin's ) on the Seniority List.

If 90 seats go to the Regionals, how long do you think Mainline will run 93 seat 190's?

Or, under the initial generous offer of 119 seats, kiss goodbye to the 319's and EMB's.

Don't have to be Kreskin to read between the lines here.

[teacher]

I'd be as concerned about this:

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/194-a-2012

..............and ACPA thought comparing their wages to Jazz was tough.

[rudder]

Didn't AC at one point announce that they were going to 'bulk up' the E190 seating to 97 by removing 1 row of J-class?

Here is a suggestion for ACPA - tell AC that the company can subcontract to aircraft with a maximum installed seating of 86 (would allow for CRJ900) but the seating plan must be all economy. This would place the onus on marketing to determine the value of J-class inventory on a city pair when determining aircraft deployment. Believe it or not this would likely stimulate retention of the smaller jets currently being operated at the mainline. Would also make it simpler to determine what service level you are getting on an 'Express' flight by AC (think KLM City Hopper). Perhaps this will push AC to insist that all new 'Express' aircraft (including Q400) have IFE/leather as standard. 'Express' would be operating on par with WJ.

The alternative is to follow the path that is being carved in the U.S. which is the replacement of 50 seat jets by 70-76 seat jets being marketed by the legacy carrier with multi-class inventory. An ever increasing number of subcontracted J-class seats. Pick your poison.

The only question now is why would CR agree to trade for something that he will likely get for free shortly anyway?

[HighT5]

I'd be as concerned about this:

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/194-a-2012

It begins..

Air Canada, on behalf of itself, Colgan and CommutAir, has applied to the Canadian Transportation Agency (Agency) for an approval to permit Air Canada to provide its scheduled international services between Canada and the United States of America by selling transportation in its own name on flights operated by Colgan and CommutAir between Canada and the United States of America, including between points in the United States of America, for an indefinite period or such period as may be authorized by the Agency....

Accordingly, the Agency, pursuant to paragraph 60(1)(b) of the CTA and section 8.2 of the ATR, approves the use by Air Canada of aircraft and flight crew provided by Colgan and CommutAir, and the provision by Colgan and CommutAir of such aircraft and flight crew to Air Canada, to permit Air Canada to provide its scheduled international services on licensed routes between Canada and the United States of America by selling transportation in its own name on flights operated by Colgan and CommutAir between Canada and the United States of America, including between points in the United States of America, for an indefinite period from the date of this Decision.

[Franky Jr]

This decision looks like really bad news for canadian pilots!

[Mig29]

You might be losing some sleep, if you are in the bottom 200 Pilots ( = 15 Fin's ) on the Seniority List.

If 90 seats go to the Regionals, how long do you think Mainline will run 93 seat 190's?

Or, under the initial generous offer of 119 seats, kiss goodbye to the 319's and EMB's.

Don't have to be Kreskin to read between the lines here.

Stu,

while I totally understand your frustration and concern, I still think it's a better move to let go of 15 175s and preserve 90+ scope and some control over the next contract period, then lose it all down the road (which is closing in very fast). I still firmly believe that any time a bigger machine goes to a lower tier carrier we ALL lose in the long run... But having said that, reality is that's the trend for now. I say TREND because nothing in life has to change forever and permanently. After all, things may improve in the next contract and you guys get a nice pay boost...

As far as job loss, that will not happen. Just think about the nightmare in logistics trying to get all 15 175's off the property to some other carrier. If it happens that they have to go, they will remove it at a steady pace, just like Jazz removed their 13 old CRJ for every new Q400 they received. So, when you factor in the training courses required, line indoc, maintenance training and final delivery details, it will take over a year and a half (AT LEAST!) before they are all gone.Therefore, all AC has to do is slow/suspend NEW hiring until the numbers equalize (with retirements) and then get back on track for B787 hiring...It's not all doom and gloom, but that's just my opinion from what I've seen and experienced so far.

Cheers

[Fanblade]

I'd be as concerned about this:

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/194-a-2012

Regulatory approval is required in Canada to Code share. Due to the merger stuff at US/CO.

A couple names dropped. Another added.

Not an issue. Concern would be a CPA.

[fly4ever]

Correct me if I am wrong, but any airline flying on behalf of AC, falls under the ACPPA, requiring service in both official languages. The OLA does not turn its head because of economics, big business, CEO's or anything. Or is this not the correct understanding of the Act?

[Stu Pidasso]

Not in the Code Shared environment, AC Code on a United / Lufthansa Aircraft for example.

Just on our Aircraft are we forced into the Language nonsense. Everyone else in the country gets away with "Jacque In The Box" taped anouncements.

As for job loss, time will tell? If the company gets their way, the minimum will be the EMB's gone. Together with the age 65 bonus, anything is possible.

[chatman]

All using their new catch phrase, something like; "this keeps our Pilots in the top Quartile in North America."

Interesting how Air Canada (claims) its Pilots are measured in the top 25 percent, while every other employee (short of the AME's) are grossly OVERPAID by comparison the the rest of the industry.

Not to mention the countless layers of USELESS Management jobs.

Good luck this summer, they're going to need it!

So true...Ticket agents 25plus an hour, rampies 22 plus an hour, Carpet and seat cover installers 28 plus an hour, flight attendants 40plus an hour and so on
And dont forget about the Presidents 5 million dollar wage