Walk Away

[rudder]

Rudder:

The AC Pension Plan is 4 Billion Dollars in the hole and the company is looking for a 30% reduction in benefits.

For the 320 / EMB Pilots, they would be miles ahead at WJ. The difference in income, more than compensates for belonging to a bankrupt pension plan.

The rush for the door is in full swing. We have had numerous short notice applications for early retirement. The ONLY thing keeping some of us here is being tied to the Pension Plan, as bad as it is.

Most Pilots I have talked to are looking to get out. It will all depend on what comes from this Arbitration.

Flight Ops is desperately short staffed and it is going to get a lot worse. They are hiring at max rate and Pilots are "no showing" their start date.

The word is out - $37,000 per year to join the Apex of Aviation in Canada?

....right!

Dear Westjet:

Well, then I guess that AC is about to get smaller.

As for pension, there are lots of other possible solutions rather than the template that has been set by the other employee groups. You should take a good look south of the border for examples.

Good luck.

[rudder]

Rudder:

The AC Pension Plan is 4 Billion Dollars in the hole and the company is looking for a 30% reduction in benefits.

For the 320 / EMB Pilots, they would be miles ahead at WJ. The difference in income, more than compensates for belonging to a bankrupt pension plan.

The rush for the door is in full swing. We have had numerous short notice applications for early retirement. The ONLY thing keeping some of us here is being tied to the Pension Plan, as bad as it is.

Most Pilots I have talked to are looking to get out. It will all depend on what comes from this Arbitration.

Flight Ops is desperately short staffed and it is going to get a lot worse. They are hiring at max rate and Pilots are "no showing" their start date.

The word is out - $37,000 per year to join the Apex of Aviation in Canada?

....right!

Dear Westjet:

Well, then I guess that AC is about to get smaller.

As for pension, there are lots of other possible solutions rather than the template that has been set by the other employee groups. You should take a good look south of the border for examples.

Good luck.

[Old fella]

The "ME, MYSELF and I" generation is/was the baby-boomers .. The same generation that doesn't wanna retire. The same generation that believes everyone else with a "sense of entitlement" should wait until they've had more then their share at the table.

Ahhh .. just wanted to clear that up .. now you may continue.

Being a “baby boomer” and currently retired, I suppose I can speak with some knowledge.. The vast majority of the so called “me, myself and I” group (as you label them) just want to fade away after completing their 30++ yrs. working, honestly just not into it any more. We earned our keep in the 70’s/80’s/90’s and beyond and are done with it. No doubt there is a small segment of baby boomer generation who gloat over an uppity sense of entitlement and are never satisfied no matter what. This group is of the opinion the “now generation” are not willing to put in any effort and constantly whine on how rough they have it. Upon entering the workforce, it is how big my house is and what I drive – I deserve that $75,000 Beemer and a 3 garage home. My salary has to be the top as “I” am worth that. In the case of your industry, “I” have to be in the left seat of a Boeing/Airbus whatever.
Me……….. I get a chuckle from it all and continue to fade away.

[Johnny767]

A very telling quote, from CR. Published in an In-House journal:

I asked Rovinescu about the future of the flying profession. He believes there will be a "massive need for pilots in the next 20 years" mainly from the Asian and Gulf carriers. Rovinescu points out, "In the case of Emirates when they will eventually have a fleet of 100 Airbus A380 and 180 Boeing 777---we have 18 Boeing 777 at Air Canada. Emirates alone with its current fleet and order book will have 400 wide body aircraft. That's seismic; that's significant! It will affect pilot jobs for sure." Rovinescu unfortunately does not feel Air Canada can compete with other carriers in terms of wages overtime.

And why is it Mr Rovinescu, that you can't compete with Pilot wages? I certainly have my own ideas...why.

As it stands, you can't even compete with WJ's wages.

[Johnny767]

The "ME, MYSELF and I" generation is/was the baby-boomers .. The same generation that doesn't wanna retire. The same generation that believes everyone else with a "sense of entitlement" should wait until they've had more then their share at the table.

Ahhh .. just wanted to clear that up .. now you may continue.

Completely - not true.

There was 'enuf' in the Failed TA to appease my generation. This fight is largely in defense of - The Profession - (in general) and the embarrassing wages for the Junior Pilots.

Fly till You Die and this Contract Fight - are being held in different arenas.

Call Ticket Master for a front row seat.

[yycflyguy]

Lastly, if AC pilots felt that they could trade their wares elsewhere for a better deal then they would. Not many leaving early.

Not true. In May there were the normal retirements of 10-12 guys and 8 guys unexpectedly retired without notice. Others have been crunching their pension numbers to see if it is worthwhile to retire early and get out of this dogs breakfast.

If they were offering LOA's right now I would bet that a couple hundred guys would leave to do overseas contracts.

Many have applications in with other airlines.

AC is not what it used to be for a career.

[126.7_STFU]

The "ME, MYSELF and I" generation is/was the baby-boomers .. The same generation that doesn't wanna retire. The same generation that believes everyone else with a "sense of entitlement" should wait until they've had more then their share at the table.

Ahhh .. just wanted to clear that up .. now you may continue.

Hundreds of thousands of people in the newer generations wholeheartedly agree with you. How many new minds are in politics and so on? Browse around and see the average age of the most wealthy ! It's quite entertaining. The point of them not wanting to retire can fall on greed, lack thereof funds to retire on ... etc. Depends who you talk to. But bottom line, it's a one way street. Be just as ruthless.

[Stu Pidasso]

Flip Side - of that coin is this:

Your parents attempted to provide a life style, well above anything they were able to enjoy. In doing so, they planned on everything (career, pay, pension) continuing to improve.

Human nature is to "provide" a better lifestyle for your Children, than you had.

Now we see our pay and pension hitting the skids. AC wanting to give the next era of Pensioners a 30 percent kick in the gonads.

So we have a generation that raised "Entitled Children" who are (themselves) nowhere near their financial targets.

Don't just ASS-u-me that the Pilots retiring today have had great careers; plenty have had a crappy ride.

All from a guy who can't get out....soon enough!

[Localizer]

Stu, considering the way this industry is going .. their worst days are soon to be our best days.

They lived the golden age of aviation ... we'll be lucky to get the bronze age.

[palm90]

I see we have an AirCanada pilot in one or our ground schools at WestJet.

[LuckyPilot]

I am a cup half full kind of guy. I try and keep the negative aspects of life at bay, and so far through life I have been successful. Since the beginning of 1937, the federal government have used AC like it's personal TAX ATM, that has not changed in the last 75 years and wont in the next 75 years.
All that really has changed, is the last 10 years respective management teams and BOD's have decided to get in on the act. Management compensation has risen by close to 1000% in the last 10 years, that is of a matter of record folks. In contrast pilot compensation is to the tune of 4% of the Flt Ops budget, so if I took another 25% pay cut like I did 9 years ago it would make the difference of 1% in the budget, conversely if they restored me to 2003 compensation level (not a pay raise) it would me an increase of 1% of the overall budget. Pension issues aside, and they will be dealt with one way or the other in the next year and a half.
What has been going on at AC, in short, is the lowest form of mean spirited management I have ever witnessed. This is personal for CR and he is enjoying this, but unfortunately for some flt ops managers they are seeing a move to the door by the people whom they can least afford to lose, senior wide body Captain's off the triple and the 67. I can confirm between May 1st and June !st we have lost eight guys, who took early retirement, to some of you that may not seem like much, but, to chronically short staffed operation like are's right now, that is big. At let me remind you that is just the start, many are doing the math now and deciding to stay or not. A few of them I know well and they are leaving because they are sick of what they see, what a better time to leave then at the beginning of what appears to be a good summer.
To add to this problem I have been told, unconfirmed, that some new hires have not been showing up for PIT course's. We use to get the very best, but with the starting pay and caustic relationship between pilots and management, who in their right mind would leave a good operation to come here. Truly the airline of choice is WestJet, (in Canada) maybe AC will be the new jet school for all the other airline's in the world.

[ogopogo]

I see we have an AirCanada pilot in one or our ground schools at WestJet.

Is this allowed??? How can you also work for the competition? Wouldn't he/she have to resign first?

[CanadianEh]

I see we have an AirCanada pilot in one or our ground schools at WestJet.

Is this allowed??? How can you also work for the competition? Wouldn't he/she have to resign first?

I think that's what palm90 is getting at, there was an ex-AC pilot at the ground school. Working for both AC and Westjet as a pilot at the same time would be impossible.

[yycflyguy]

To add to this problem I have been told, unconfirmed, that some new hires have not been showing up for PIT course's.

I can confirm that. 6 no-shows over the past 3 new hire courses. That does not count the pilots that have been accepted and offered a course date and tell AC "thanks, but no thanks".... can't say that I blame them.

The hot topic at the GCM and on the ACPA forum is what can happen to the pension. If AC was expecting 200 retirements over the next 2 years I wouldn't be surprised if half that number take the money and run early. AC is already short on pilots. Should be an interesting summer if guys file for retirement early. Not to mention the shortage of Indoc Training Capts who have recently quit their positions on the 767 & A320.

[rudder]

To add to this problem I have been told, unconfirmed, that some new hires have not been showing up for PIT course's.

I can confirm that. 6 no-shows over the past 3 new hire courses. That does not count the pilots that have been accepted and offered a course date and tell AC "thanks, but no thanks".... can't say that I blame them.

The hot topic at the GCM and on the ACPA forum is what can happen to the pension. If AC was expecting 200 retirements over the next 2 years I wouldn't be surprised if half that number take the money and run early. AC is already short on pilots. Should be an interesting summer if guys file for retirement early. Not to mention the shortage of Indoc Training Capts who have recently quit their positions on the 767 & A320.

But wait, isn't this the NHL

[yycflyguy]

To add to this problem I have been told, unconfirmed, that some new hires have not been showing up for PIT course's.

I can confirm that. 6 no-shows over the past 3 new hire courses. That does not count the pilots that have been accepted and offered a course date and tell AC "thanks, but no thanks".... can't say that I blame them.

The hot topic at the GCM and on the ACPA forum is what can happen to the pension. If AC was expecting 200 retirements over the next 2 years I wouldn't be surprised if half that number take the money and run early. AC is already short on pilots. Should be an interesting summer if guys file for retirement early. Not to mention the shortage of Indoc Training Capts who have recently quit their positions on the 767 & A320.

But wait, isn't this the NHL

Yeah, but you're playing for the Leafs.

[biatch]

"Yeah, but you're playing for the Leafs."

I like it !!! LFMAO. Ahhh Leafs fans...fans of perpetual mediocrity!

[av8ts]

The Leafs actually make money. More like the Coyotes.

[yycflyguy]

The Leafs actually make money. More like the Coyotes.

Don't fool yourself. Air Canada makes money too.

[rhythm101]

The Leafs actually make money. More like the Coyotes.

Don't fool yourself. Air Canada makes money too.

They just spend more than they make, some 1-3 million more per day.

[Ah_yeah]

Well all those wannabe managers gotta get paid ya know ! In truth the daily siphoning is what kills Air Canada...thanks to our good buddy Calin the Impailor.

[ogopogo]

I see we have an AirCanada pilot in one or our ground schools at WestJet.

Is this allowed??? How can you also work for the competition? Wouldn't he/she have to resign first?

I think that's what palm90 is getting at, there was an ex-AC pilot at the ground school. Working for both AC and Westjet as a pilot at the same time would be impossible.

gotchas

[Jennifer Stedman]

To add to this problem I have been told, unconfirmed, that some new hires have not been showing up for PIT course's.

I can confirm that. 6 no-shows over the past 3 new hire courses. That does not count the pilots that have been accepted and offered a course date and tell AC "thanks, but no thanks".... can't say that I blame them.

The hot topic at the GCM and on the ACPA forum is what can happen to the pension. If AC was expecting 200 retirements over the next 2 years I wouldn't be surprised if half that number take the money and run early. AC is already short on pilots. Should be an interesting summer if guys file for retirement early. Not to mention the shortage of Indoc Training Capts who have recently quit their positions on the 767 & A320.

For those of you who don't recognize my name, I am the Pilot Hiring Manager at Air Canada. I don't follow this forum, but from time to time, individuals bring to my attention certain posts.

The above post, made by "yycflyguy" is a definitive statement which is frankly, untrue. I think it is important for everyone to know that there have been 0 no-shows for our PIT courses. Our class sizes vary and I guess it's possible that people have misunderstood our class sizes to be an indication of no-shows, but that is certainly not the case. We are also not having any issues with people declining job offers. In fact, I can think of only one person in the past 9 months who has declined a job offer.

I make this post, simply to inform you all of the actual circumstances of hiring at Air Canada since much of the information on this forum concerning Air Canada pilot hiring is inaccurate. To be clear, we are still hiring and have plans to continue to hire for the forseeable future.

[yycflyguy]

Welcome to AvCanada Jennifer,

I guess the new hires I have spoken directly to have lied to me then about the fact that there have been no-shows on multiple PIT courses this year. Not sure what their motivation would be to lie about this topic... and from several different sources from different PIT courses, including instructors. As they say, I am just the messenger.

As far as candidates that have been accepted and not taken the job: I also know first hand that a pilot who was hired has declined the offer. Several others have told me the same with their friends.

Not sure I would say that my statement is untrue. Especially when we both agree that there is a pilot shortage. IMO, the hiring will probably continue until arbitrator Stanley with the assistance of the Federal government force an agreement on the parties.

Constructively, perhaps you could share with us:
1. What is it that an Air Canada Hiring Manager looks for in a candidate?
2. What specific aviation experiences does a Hiring Manager look for in a candidate?
3. How can a candidate score well in the interview and is there a scoring matrix?

These ones are a little tougher:
4. Has Air Canada weighed the significance of deteriorating WAWCON and its inevitable short term employment for new hires vs working to have a sustainable future with the professionally trained pilots that have dedicated their career to AC?
5. Has the hiring department been prepared for the resulting mass retirements before the summer and before arbitrator Stanley has ruled and the possibility of massively changing the pension for those pilots who have put in 35-40 years for the airline?
6. How will the hiring department handle the change in the age 60 rule after December?
7. After the implementation of FOS from arbitrator Stanley will hiring cease?
8. How important is morale from a Hiring Manager's point of view?

I make this post, simply to inform you all of the actual circumstances of hiring at Air Canada since much of the information on this forum concerning Air Canada pilot hiring is inaccurate.

What else did you read that you found to be "inaccurate"? Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[Fanblade]

Flyguy your not going to get a debate from the hiring manager at AC. People looking for employment at AC are fortunate she took the time to step in and clarify. I'm thinking that should be enough. Much more than I expected.

Jennifer thanks.

Flyguy,

As for much of the questions you ask. Most of them can not be answered until the arbitration is rendered or the impact of age 60 is realized. Until then AC will plod along based on what they know. Not what might happen. I suspect that age 60 and a more productive CBA will slow hiring for a couple of years. I doubt it will stop it. If there is any expansion? It wont slow at all.

I very much doubt we will see a mass exodus. Yes we have had some who were close to retirement anyway and just plain Fed up with management actions as of late.

As far as WAWCON turning people off. Like any company they will respond to it if, it actually happens. I doubt it will.