Radio usage plea

[FenderManDan]

This issue of blabbing on the radio has been covered before and this post is just a plea to instructors and CFI to please analyze your SOP and how you teach radio communication. This in particular is for the FTU in CYOO and CYKZ which probably has the same ownership by now.

I am a student also and don't know jack yet, however from my observation it is really disturbing how much time students on a solo flight in our practice areas around Toronto spend on the radio. I am hinting on the radio comm on 122.90 in the Claremont/Cooks bay.
I had a situation that five or six cessnas were zipping along in the same are plus some soaring activity and you can see it can be a busy airspace.

Don't get me wrong I agree that position reporting is important since we are all zipping all over the practice area in all headings and altitudes generally between 1500 and 5000 asl.

But for f..k sakes keep your transmission short because by the time you finish all your blah, blah (conflicting traffic blah). You are going to run into each other. I guarantee that while you are yapping you are not seeing outside of cockpit. For instance yesterday two of the airplanes were 200 ft apart (one on top of other) not seeing each other and both were transmitting their life stories.

Nothing against the foreign students. I understand that english is not their language, however 90% of time their long heavy accented radio transmissions are unclear and confusing. In my opinion it would be safer just to shut up and look around.

Please keep it simple and short just basic information who/position/alt/intentions (avoid explaining exercise details from the FTM to the rest of us)

[Colonel Sanders]

I don't know what it is about a VHF comm radio
that makes a private pilot lose his brains, and decide
to try to sound like a late-night FM disc jockey.

A transmission with fewer words, that gets the same
information across, is objectively a better transmission.

But private pilots don't care about making good radio
transmissions. The purpose of the radio transmissions
is to hear the sound of their own voice, and the more of
it, the better.

Argh. Reminds me of the guy that flies into Arnprior,
and insists on starting every radio call with:

"Pressurized Cessna 210 Centurion"

Barf. Honestly, the rest of us couldn't really care if
you're pressurized or not - even though you think it's
a big deal - and who cares if you're flying a 182 or a
206 or 210.

What's really a pity is that the gay porn star from
Quebec that just mailed the body parts, didn't kill a
few people who end every radio transmission with
"Conflicting Traffic, Please Advice <aircraft make,
model and registration> on <frequency>.

See, our legal system gives volume discounts, and
why couldn't the gay porn star killer from Quebec
have helped us out?

[Shiny Side Up]

I don't know what it is about a VHF comm radio
that makes a private pilot lose his brains

I'm not sure if its just the VHF comm and it certainly isn't restricted to private pilots. I think its the terror of flying in Class G. Its like there's two different people if you hear someone before and after they get the "radar services terminated, cleared enroute". In controlled he's Joe cool in control, in uncontrolled he's a nervous blabbering fool. You'd think there were Fokkers out there hunting, and he's a new trainee that somehow more words are going to protect him.

[iflyforpie]

You'd think there were Fokkers out there hunting, and he's a new trainee that somehow more words are going to protect him.

I do get the temptation sometimes to yell 'CONFLICTING!' over the radio when I hear the usual babble, but I think now it will be TAKATAKATAKATAKATAKA!!!

[Colonel Sanders]

You can teach monkeys to fly better than that!

[FenderManDan]

You'd think there were Fokkers out there hunting, and he's a new trainee that somehow more words are going to protect him.

I do get the temptation sometimes to yell 'CONFLICTING!' over the radio when I hear the usual babble, but I think now it will be TAKATAKATAKATAKATAKA!!!

I was thinking to reply on a radio "Blabby Cessna G... this is P-51 C-FUKT on your 6 and got you in sight, taking care of conflicting traffic, just aaaaaabout now TAKATAKATAKATAKA".

Joking aside, you guys are upset about the "conflicting traffic" blabber. You should hear one guy almost broadcasting the entire procedure of slow flight. I thought that can't be, it was probably a stuck mike, while the instructor was explaining to student. Well, until the "conflicting traffic...." was mentioned at the end of the message. It was probably 15 sec long.

This is dangerous, me thinks.

[Colonel Sanders]

What's dangerous is paying too much attention to the comm.

Seriously. All too often, I see private pilots stop flying their
aircraft as they listen to some long-winded radio call - quite
possibly for a distant airport!

Meanwhile, their airspeed has gone for a sh1t. At low altitude.

Better to turn the damned thing off, and LOOK OUTSIDE.

More instructors need to teach their students that the AM VHF
comm radio is a bad, expensive practical joke, and is not to be
taken seriously.

First, fly the airplane. Look outside. Lowest priority is the radio.

[schmoo]

Im glad this topic has come up. Yesterday, I took my family for my maiden flight with my PPL. Wanting to keep the flight local, I took them up to our practice area. There is usually a fair bit of traffic up there, so I found myself making position reports quite a bit, even more often than usual. The pilots are pretty good up there, and when the reports are brief, I find it comforting to know where people are and what they are doing. It also is helping me to get better at filtering out the unnecessary information. So, if someone is over xxxx and is heading south-east, I can usually figure out whether or not this is of concern to me.

I feel a little guilty, since when I do the math, I realize that a bunch of planes continuously broadcasting position reports might cause the radio to lose its effectiveness. But until I develop the sixth sense for spotting planes that my instructor seems to have, I need my radio !

I'm hoping that in time, I will be able to spot planes with greater effectiveness. Heck, I have pretty good eyesight, but even when I know where someone is, I have a hard time picking them out of the landscape.

It's also the stories about competent pilots running into each other and the "7 seconds to avoid a collision" stuff that has me thinking. It makes me wonder how safe I can expect to be, even if I am keeping a vigilant lookout. Makes me think that luck ( or at least the absence of bad luck ) has as big a hand in it as anything.

So for now anyway, I'm turning up my radio, keeping my eyes peeled and carrying a lucky rabbits foot !

[Big Pistons Forever]

Going for a pleasure flight in the practice area is like going swimming in a shark tank with a pork chop hanging from your neck. I try to stay out of the practice area unless there is a specific flight training reason.

However all the close calls I have ever had in the practice areas were from some clown transiting right though the area head down and oblivious, not talking to anyone

[Shiny Side Up]

You can teach monkeys to fly better than that!

Yes, but teaching them to speak is equally difficult.

This is one of those cases where we really need to have some Lions back in the mix. Keep us all on our toes and get some survival of the fittest going.



In this case we need some roaming fighter planes out there homing in on the "conflicting please advise" crowd. This would take care of two things a) people would start talking only what they needed to b) people would be watching out more. Smarter and more interesting.

[AEROBAT]

Going for a pleasure flight in the practice area is like going swimming in a shark tank with a pork chop hanging from your neck.

Best post of the month! Thanks.

[767]

For some reason I have a feeling that I posted in this thread before. Anyways, someone mentioned about PPL's not using their radio properly. At the end of the day, it all comes down to the instructor, not the student. Correct me if Im wrong, but it seems to me that some instructors wait until CPL training commences before they start to teach proper communication skills, or maybe some don't care at all, hence "Any conflicting, please advise". I dont want to criticize anyone, but proper communication instruction should start from day 1, doesn't matter if you are doing the rec permit or CPL. Cheers.

[North Shore]

Bravo, Sanders. While extremely 'incorrect', you've perfectly encapsulated my pet peeve of the season (so far).

Conflicting Please Advise. No, I'm going to sit there like a moran, and watch us run into each other, while maintaining radio silence.

ps. If any of you hear a 'Conflictications kindly communicate' over the radio on the prairies over the course of the summer, it's me, mocking the verbose.

[trey kule]

Boy, you guys sure take this seriously. You have to think outside of the box and have fun with it....help out the verbosely challanged.

When you hear a radio transmission that is about as long as the Gettysburg address, politely call, tell them you were so busy listening to their transmission, you were not looking out of the cockpit, and ask for them to say again all after....their call sign
If they still dont get it and actually do the whole thing again...ask them again....surprising how they will get the message.

Same goes with any conflicting...Call them up and say you are not sure..please advise present position....when they do ask them again....and if their brain finally clicks...and they ask you where you are...tell them about 100 miles away, but just as they were, you were trying to be safe.....

Lots of fun, and while it does tie up the radio a bit, lots of learning goes on....trust me. In the end much less radio traffic, particularily in a target rich enviorment.

Personally, the type I hate is the ones that want to fly and be an airtraffic controller....I have a couple of very humerous stories of how to deal with them, but in deference to the already embarrased, I will not post them.

Help them out folks.. Getting mad at them only will make them do it more as they wont realize the error of their ways.

Have fun and help...thats my motto...well that and fly sober....a great new experience..

[767]

Personally, the type I hate is the ones that want to fly and be an airtraffic controller..

Sometimes in an uncontolled environment, switching to the role of ATC can be a solution to solving conflict. For example, lets say you want to join STRAIGHT IN downwind, and there is a potential conflict at the MID DOWNWIND. I would slow down of course to let the other guy in front of me, however, sometimes I (on downwind) want to tell the other guy to start his turn ASAP, so that I won't have to slow down too much. The sooner me and him are flying in the same direction, the better. Some people wait until they get to a certian point before they begin MID DOWNWIND, which is not a bad idea, however, if no "conflict" exists except for the guy coming straight in, then you better start turning "if requested" by me. When its a windy day, its a whole different story.

[trey kule]

"A straight in downwind" eh... I must be getting senile because I dont recall hearing that term before...Straight in...I understand where you are coming from and to...downwind...I understand approximately where you are...but a straight in downwind?

Or were you using this terminology to make a point as to why pilots should not be playing ATC and telling other pilots when to turn. In your defence, maybe he started it by asking for conflicting to advise....

I gather you want the other guy to fly parallel with you on the downwind so the conflict will be when at the turn for the base leg..good idea.... as it might be closer to the emergency facilities. Last thing I need is someone flying outside me on a parallel track who is going to cross in front of me...though I suppose it is one way to have the other guy extend so you can land first....just give him ATC-pilot instructions to extend...

You ATC- pilots are just way to smart for us old guys. Dont know why they make the professional ATC folks go to school..Just get a pilots license is all you are saying they need.

BTW.. If you join the downwind, as I am guessing you are at the upwind end, perhaps a simple radio call that you are joining downwind would help to alert the other pilot, as I am assuming he has made the required call prior to getting to the airport, or you would not know about him would you.

just pulling your leg 767...downwind leg that is..

[Beefitarian]

I usually say, "Breaker breaker 123.2 you got your ears on good buddy, come on?"

[Colonel Sanders]

A while ago I was instructing in an elderly aircraft with a student
in the left seat, me in the right seat but no brakes and no PTT
on my side. Oh well, at least this one has an accelerator pump.

Anyways, we're listening to some incredibly long-winded call
from a guy at a distant airport. It went on, and on, and on,
with all sorts of useless information. I'm sure the private pilot
thought he was terribly important, and giving a Really Good
Radio Call (tm). Didn't miss a thing, and repeated everything
two or three times to make sure that everyone heard everything
he wanted us to know.

When it was finally over, I told the student, "Transmit: We
need more information". He promptly did. Good boy.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Once on hearing a overlong silly position report I replied with my underwear size. When the other guy asked why, I said it was to help with his "SITuational awareness"

[schmoo]

Sometimes i can't tell if you guys are joking or not so I'll have to come right out and ask...

I hear "straight-in downwind" all the time at my airport, and I assumed it was to distinguish from mid-downwind, even through the "straight-in" part isn't really necessary. So, I have found myself using the term. Is straight-in downwind a legit term ? Even if it isn't, is it a good practice to use the language ( correct or not ) of your home airport ?

As far as the scenario Trey laid out, if I was on downwind and someone mid-dw was coming in, I would normally just slow down and let them in unless they were a little too close in which case I would either slow down and tell them I was slowing down for them to go in front of me or if I was unsure of what they were doing I would ask their intentions. Is there anything there that is a bad idea ?

[767]

"A straight in downwind" eh... I must be getting senile because I dont recall hearing that term before...Straight in...I understand where you are coming from and to...downwind...I understand approximately where you are...but a straight in downwind?

Yeah. Straight in, or from the upwind side (coming MID). On the radio, you can say "downwind" or "straight in downwind", same thing.

Anyways, who wants some space weed?

[Beefitarian]

767 I can't do this. My brain doesn't work with uncontrolled airport talk.

~throws headset~

[iflyforpie]

I usually say 'long downwind' if I am joining it out of the circuit rather than 'straight in downwind' which uses more radio syllables.

Also 'straight in downwind' can be cut off so it sounds like 'GABC will join straight in... eeeEEEEEEEEwwwawaWAWAWAWAWAawaaagghhbbbllssCCCCHHH... ANY CONFLICTING PLEASE ADVISE CESSNA ONE SEVENTY TWO CHARLIE GOLF DELTA ECHO FOXTROT SUMSPOT TRAFFIC!!'

Am I straight in to a downwind leg? (What some people will think). Or am I straight in to final? (What most people will think).

[FlyGy]

Sometimes in an uncontolled environment, switching to the role of ATC can be a solution to solving conflict. For example, lets say you want to join STRAIGHT IN downwind, and there is a potential conflict at the MID DOWNWIND. I would slow down of course to let the other guy in front of me, however, sometimes I (on downwind) want to tell the other guy to start his turn ASAP, so that I won't have to slow down too much. The sooner me and him are flying in the same direction, the better. Some people wait until they get to a certian point before they begin MID DOWNWIND, which is not a bad idea, however, if no "conflict" exists except for the guy coming straight in, then you better start turning "if requested" by me. When its a windy day, its a whole different story.

This confuses me a bit, because it is my understanding that a pilot cannot join the MID DOWNWIND at an uncontrolled airport if you're talking about the 45° angle. If he's joining the downwind without crossing mid field, then he is supposed to give way to aircraft established on the crosswind, correct? My understanding is that the only two ways a pilot can join the circuit at an uncontrolled aerodrome is either crosswind at mid field or established on the downwind well before the runway upwind threshold and only then if there is not an aircraft crossing at midfield.

From http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... .htm#4-5-2

(v) Aerodromes not within an MF area: Where no MF procedures are in effect, aircraft should approach the traffic circuit from the upwind side. Alternatively, once the pilot has ascertained without any doubt that there will be no conflict with other traffic entering the circuit or traffic established within the circuit, the pilot may join the circuit on the downwind leg (Figure 4.6).

(vi) Aerodromes within an MF area when airport advisory information is available: Aircraft may join the circuit pattern straight-in or at 45° to the downwind leg or straight-in to the base or final legs (Figure 4.1). Pilots should be alert for other VFR traffic entering the circuit at these positions and for IFR straight-in or circling approaches.

(vii) Aerodromes within an MF area when airport advisory information is not available: Aircraft should approach the traffic circuit from the upwind side. Alternatively, once the pilot has ascertained without any doubt that there will be no conflict with other traffic entering the circuit or traffic established within the circuit, the pilot may join the circuit on the downwind leg (Figure 4.6).

[767]

This confuses me a bit, because it is my understanding that a pilot cannot join the MID DOWNWIND at an uncontrolled airport if you're talking about the 45° angle. If he's joining the downwind without crossing mid field, then he is supposed to give way to aircraft established on the crosswind, correct? My understanding is that the only two ways a pilot can join the circuit at an uncontrolled aerodrome is either crosswind at mid field or established on the downwind well before the runway upwind threshold and only then if there is not an aircraft crossing at midfield.

Ok maybe I didn't word it right. Ill give it another shot.

When I talk about MID DOWNWIND, it means that the aircraft is joining by crossing mid field (from the UPWIND side). With regard to STRAIGHT IN DOWNWIND, it means that the aircraft is entering circuit from where the downwind leg begins. Yes, it is true that the aircraft entering at the downwind has right of way over the aircraft coming from the upwind side (assuming that the aircraft on downwind is established in the circuit), but usually the guy coming from the upwind side doesnt remember or think about right of way, they just cut in front of you. So my conclusion here is that when you encounter someone like that, give that guy some kind of instruction or say something so that the conflict is eliminated. I hope that clears up the confusion, if not, then I request BPF to explain.