Canadian North fires boozing Dash 8 pilot

[slowstream]

The pilot, detained by the RCMP in Qikiqtarjuaq May 31 after flying a De Havilland Dash 8 passenger aircraft into the community from Iqaluit, faces a possible criminal investigation for consuming alcohol while operating an aircraft, a Transport Canada incident report said June 4.

It would appear he was drinking while actually flying, so I don't think that breathalyser or blood tests would be necessary in this case.

I don't believe there was any evidence and certainly nothing issued from the company about drinking while he was flying.

Also a breathalyzer and blood testing are standard and rest assured that company lawyers would not have strongly recommended not terminating him until the results were in. The blood tests on take a couple of hours to do at most.

I'm not trying to pass judgement, thats for the courts, just pointing out the obvious.

Regardless, its very unfortunate and I refer to my sentiments earlier

[Stu Pidasso]

stu Pidasso

Regardless of their location in Canada, each breathalyzer is calibrated on each and every test with a Standard Alcohol solution and two tests are taken, which by law have to be within 20mgs of alcohol.

Sasquash:

My (limited) understanding is there are portable and fixed Breathalyzers. When the Police are running a massive Christmas Check stop Program, I would assume that the portable machines are not calibrated prior to each sample?

If the driver fails the portable test, off to the Detachment for a breath sample in a more sophisticated machine.

There have been factual cases where Pilots have failed the Portable Test (done in the Flight Deck,) taken for another Breath Sample, and then EXONERATED by the Blood Test.

What would a settlement like Qikiqtarjuaq have?

We have seen False Accusations in this business, given that I am prepared to wait for the facts.

[ettw]

Usually employee has to approach employer with problem first, before they get caught.

You may not appreciate that you are not in control and therefor have a problem until something like this happens.

To those of you who have spoken so harshly against this individual, count your lucky stars that you are not afflicted with this disease known as alcoholism.

ETTW

[crazy_aviator]

Calling alcoholism / addictions a disease brings in a NO - FAULT element, why dont we just provide the "cure" and not penalize them in any way,,, its not their fault, its a disease

[sky's the limit]

Calling alcoholism / addictions a disease brings in a NO - FAULT element, why dont we just provide the "cure" and not penalize them in any way,,, its not their fault, its a disease

And that statement brings in the "I really have no experience with alcoholism" element. Ever watch anyone drink themselves to death, literally? Thought not.

This is a huge issue, and whether or not this case in particular is "alcoholism," or just a mistake, I don't know. But, the above is about as far off base as one can get on this subject. "Fault" is an interesting thing... people seem bound and determined to pin it exclusively on the person in question, just not that simple.

[ettw]

Calling alcoholism / addictions a disease brings in a NO - FAULT element, why dont we just provide the "cure" and not penalize them in any way,,, its not their fault, its a disease

The individual will be held accountable for their actions.

My point was addressed to those who felt that a company should only provide help to a person who cries for help BEFORE they're caught in this sort of a development. I believe alcoholism is a disease and I also think we should offer the same help we provide to those who have other medical issues WHENEVER they ask for help.

ETTW

[duCapo]

Hopefully this is the wakeup call this individual needs. Alcoholism is an insidious disease of both mind and body. There is lots of help out there. try this http://www.boaf.org/ it works.

[Ace Cdn]

It is amazing how much misinformation is on here. All I can say is there is alot more to this than has been reported and it will eventually come out.

[KAG]

If your going to drink make sure your not pushing the limit. 8 hours or whatever your ops manual states, is a limit for A drink not a hard night out. Give yourself the proper time to not only be legal but over the hang over. The last thing anyone needs is a tired hung over pilot.

Alcoholism is a real monster, having seen it destroy members of my family. I can honestly say it is not to be disregarded as just an excuse.
There is a difference between alcoholism and making a bad choice(s), don't confuse the two.

We all like to have a good time just be smart about it and know when to pull the pin. If you can't make that distinction then either don't party while on the road or get help.

Fly safe all.

[Rhys Perraton]

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[Flyguy62]

This pilot was not known to have a drinking problem, just made a very bag judgement call.
He also was not wrongfully dismissed. He openly admitted to breaking the rules of transport Canada as well as the company. Whether you think the breathalyzer or blood tests may be in accurate, in this case it doesn't matter, he might of royally screwed up but had the common sense to come clean about his mistake.

The only thing that doesn't add up is the time he went through security to the time he landed in qik. He would of went through security in iqaluit at least 1 hour prior to taking off, then the plane landed, offloaded and reboarded in pang and took off for qik. This would of taken 3 -31/2 hours. Who dropped the ball here? Security or the company?

[CID]

It appears that the evidence was piled high enough for Canadian North to act. In many cases an employer doesn't have to wait for the results of a trial and I don't think I would have if I had a report of a pilot smelling of alcohol and the police report and a failure of the pilot to explain why he smelled like alcohol.

Most employers know their employees reasonably well and know who to watch. Apparently the copilot had no issue with flying in an airplane with a piss-tank at the controls but shame on him/her for allowing this guy to fly with our families on board!

And for those of you who are relying on time to dry you out before you take control of an airplane, be advised that even if 12 hours have passed since you passed out after a binge, you may still be seriously impaired. Just because the official time has passed, if there's a chance you will register ANY alcohol in breath or blood tests or if you have a hangover, please do me and my family a favour. Call in sick and seek help.

[sarg]

It appears that the evidence was piled high enough for Canadian North to act. In many cases an employer doesn't have to wait for the results of a trial and I don't think I would have if I had a report of a pilot smelling of alcohol and the police report and a failure of the pilot to explain why he smelled like alcohol.

Most employers know their employees reasonably well and know who to watch. Apparently the copilot had no issue with flying in an airplane with a piss-tank at the controls but shame on him/her for allowing this guy to fly with our families on board!

And for those of you who are relying on time to dry you out before you take control of an airplane, be advised that even if 12 hours have passed since you passed out after a binge, you may still be seriously impaired. Just because the official time has passed, if there's a chance you will register ANY alcohol in breath or blood tests or if you have a hangover, please do me and my family a favour. Call in sick and seek help.

That's the problem, if the company knows there's a problem and doesn't do something it puts the rest of the crew between a rock and a hard place. " The company knows about this guy and hasn't done anything now I'm stuck with him" you go to work hoping for the best, til somebody else made a complaint.

Many years ago I had a F/O show up smelling of booze and looking like sh*t after a night of partying, sent him home and took another, spoke to the CP about it. The company's solution was not to have him fly with me any more. He later damaged an aircraft towing out the hanger one morning after a similar night.

[esp803]

And that statement brings in the "I really have no experience with alcoholism" element. Ever watch anyone drink themselves to death, literally

I have had a friend who drank himself to death, and another who stopped just before...

By definition alcoholism could be classified as a disease:

"a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment. "

However, I think to classify it with other illnesses is a fallacy. Most likely I would list alcoholism as a side effect to a personality disorder (ie: addictive personality), not as a disease.

As for "innocent until proven guilty". This is how our legal system is based, however it acts much differently in many cases. One of which for example is accused sex offenders. If a father is accused of abusing a child, the father is removed from the family whether he is innocent or not.... prior to the trial. The same thing occurs with DUIs. You will have your licence revoked prior to the trial. Yes I know that if you blow a .20, the evidence is not in your favour, but you still have the right to a trial.

Finally, with regards to this particular situation: Call in sick if you are hungover, hell call in hungover, most employers I have worked for will let that slide once. They will certainly let it slide more then doing what this poor soul decided to do.

E

[godsrcrazy]

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Are you suggesting that those of us that don’t agree with what this person did and are criticizing this act also Drink and then go flying. If you are suggesting we all make mistakes Yes we do however if the blood alcohol was over the legal limit then this was a intentional act. Sorry but i have no sympathy for this individual. As far as i am concerned the rest of the flight crew should at minimum be suspended without pay for a period of time. If a security person recognized the fact this individual was impaired then the rest of the crew must have knew and choose to ignore the fact.

[Pratt X 3]

I apologize in advance for the slight thread creep and I know I might not get much agreement with my opinion but why is there such a connection with flying and drinking? The whole notion that pilots are huge drinkers and its part of the image is what concerns/confuses me. Not that I didn't think that when I was younger; my motto as a teenager and into my early twenties was "FDF; Flyin', Drinkin', and F*ckin'!" but after awhile, the drinking part just didn't appeal to me anymore. Sure, I may have a drink once in a blue moon but usually, a good meal and a nice, comfy bed is all I want on the road. But that makes me a "Slam Clicker" in some people's eyes, not that I really care, and the negative connotation that brings. In fact, it was said by someone on this forum that "I must be a blast to fly with" after I stated that I didn't drink. I just don't get the party, party mentality on the road that some I've shared the cockpit seem to have.

[All Sides]

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Actually the stone throwing seems surpringly restrained, some normally very verbal members have remained silent.

"Learn from the mistakes of others", this pilot is going to pay a very heavy price for his mistake.

[imarai]

Reminds me of the 1979 movie "The Pilot" staring Cliff Robertson, about an airline pilot who flies at the end of a bottle. He hid one bottle in the lavatory garbage can.
It was rated AAA, for "action", adventure" and "alcoholism".

[ywg9]

As he should pay a hefty price. Its one thing to have drinking problem its snother thing to get in the flight deck even worde the left seat and than go flying. He is getting exactlybas he should, does it suck for him yea but he should have thought about.that at check in no pitty and no sympathy for him.

[Oliver Close-off]

As he should pay a hefty price. Its one thing to have drinking problem its snother thing to get in the flight deck even worde the left seat and than go flying. He is getting exactlybas he should, does it suck for him yea but he should have thought about.that at check in no pitty and no sympathy for him.

Have you been drinking?

[ywg9]

lol wow actually I was enjoying a layover drink, however that is not the story behind the bad post i blame the small keyboard on my phone and my fat fingures bad mix lol

[tomajet]

Holy cow you are so miss informed about so much of what happened here. These posts are so full of half truths and C#@P. A bunch of Monday morning quarter backs sitting on their ivory pedistals preaching to the aviation world being all high and mighty and thinking they are soooo much better. AND right off the bat is the title of the post "Canadian North fires boozing Dash 8 pilot" pull your head out....it's that lump 3 feet above your arse. This is why I stopped coming on avcanada because of all the garbage posted on it, sometimes most of you make me ashamed to be a pilot. How about some coming together to fix problems and stop pointing fingers and placing blame. Your not the Capt, FO, FA or Maintance that was there so grow up.

[Wilbur]

In labour law there is a difference between alcohol abuse (drink too much or too often without being addicted) and alcohol dependency (an alcoholic). Alcoholism is considered a disability and an employer generally cannot terminate on the first occasion of being intoxicated on the job. However, the diagnosis of alcoholism has to be made by an addictions specialist, not just self declared or by a GP. If diagnosed an alcoholic, the employee will likely be required to attend a treatment program, agree to random testing, and sign a "last chance" agreement that will have them fired without recourse if they consume alcohol again. On the other hand, the alcohol abuser who is not addicted could be fired on the first occasion of being intoxicated on the job, especially one that is safety sensitive.

People also incorrectly link the criminal court and labour relations processes. They are two different systems operating to different standards. A criminal conviction requires proof beyond reasonable doubt, wereas labour relations is an administrative process with much more liberal evidence rules and a burden of proof based on a balance of probabilities. The fact a person may not be charged criminally, have charges stayed, or be aquitted has absolutely no bearing on the labour relations proceedings. They could be found not guilty in criminal court, but guilty in a labour relations arbitration or tribunal and be fired for cause.

In a situation such as this, all it would take is for the pilot to have made a statement to the employer acknowledging he consumed alcohol in violation of company policy and he could be fired for cause. What the cops due in their criminal investigation with breathalyzers and blood tests doesn't matter.

[station60]

This is why I stopped coming on avcanada because of all the garbage posted on it, sometimes most of you make me ashamed to be a pilot.

...clearly you didn't stop coming on avcanada.

[trey kule]

....thats one of those half truths he was mentioning......