Hawker on Fire in Sandy Lake

[CLguy]

Just heard that a Hawker is on fire at the Sandy Lake Airport Apron. Sounds like it is not crash related. Anyone have any details?

[SmokinJoe]

Just spoke to an eye witness, was the tanker pumping off Jet into their tanks on the pass ramp. Everyone is ok. Airplane is toast.

[F100SWB]

It was Wasaya 805(c-fttw.) From what I have been able to gather it is a total loss and the fire was started by the Honda water pump that was being used to offload fuel. I questioned the safety of that many times during my time there, especially since I have a background in the petroleum industry. My concern was always met with"we consider it an acceptable risk."

It's not like this hasn't happend before, the first 801(don't know the reg offhand) suffered the same fate

[AEROMONKEY]

That's too bad! How many do they have left?

[Kilo-Kilo]

From what I have been able to gather it is a total loss and the fire was started by the Honda water pump that was being used to offload fuel.

You've got to be joking...

Are they using their own truck or is it from an FBO? An FBO surely would be following CPPI rules when it comes to off-loading.

[hew44]

You've got to be joking...

Are they using their own truck or is it from an FBO? An FBO surely would be following CPPI rules when it comes to off-loading

hahahhahaha you have obviously never been up North...or maybe you have and your joking. But anyway that is too bad, those planes are awesome.

[F100SWB]

That leaves them with 3 flyable HS748's, the tanker 801(c-gltc) 806 (c-fffs) and 807(c-gmaa) and with the short winter road season they will be hurting for the fuel haul.
805 was the only small door they had left.

As for the Honda pump, this was a load into their own remote tank, but this is standard procedure for their offloading. You should see some of the stuff they offload into at the customers risk. You have to remember they are hauling fuel to the reserves, rules and codes are not exactly followed on the customers end of things. A 1000gal or bigger mounted to a trailer or truck wagon is not uncommon...

[cratedriver]

I rarely lurk or post on here... but I could see that one coming for years. I recall offloading fuel from the VAN with the same style pump thinking dear God this isn't certified for flammable liquids. Not surprised. Only a matter of time.

[Minimums]

Not surprising unfortunately. They've been using water pumps to pump fuel for a long time, because they are faster and less expensive than the proper pumps. Slower pumps = slower turns up north. Pilots paid by the mile, not by the gallon. Considering the sight of their other fuel systems, its surprising a company like this cuts corners. Their fuel cabinets are all beat to pieces, doors beat off, locks missing or damaged, always have a 'stain' around them. Perimeters tank (right beside the wasaya tank) is always nice and clean, no damage, proper locks and always shoveled out in the winter.

Sure the insurance company is going to be asking some questions. Going to be expensive I'll bet. Too bad.

[iflyforpie]

Bunch of fcuking amateurs. You know, there are these wonderful pumps that are approved and safe and carried by every single aircraft. They are called BOOST PUMPS!

Two seconds to disconnect a firewall fuel line and connect another hose for the purpose, and maybe a few minutes longer to pump.

[Kilo-Kilo]

...They've been using water pumps to pump fuel for a long time, because they are faster and less expensive than the proper pumps...

That is part of the problem. Jet and diesel are viscous enough to generate their own static charge when running through product line. Honda water pumps run relatively small diameter hose at high flow, making the potential for flow induced static charge to increase. This, of course, is without taking the proximity of the centrifugal pump to the internal combustion engine, ignition system, and hot exhaust that a Honda design incorporates into account.

Have to wonder what their insurer is going to do.

Are there CARS that have been ignored by this practice?

[cratedriver]

If I recall the pump was similar to this.



I saw a photo of the Hawker from a friend in YSJ. It is bad. Total write off. Not much of a plane left.

[Bobby868]

From what I've heard it's all about the turn around times at Wasaya. Push the planes, push the pilots to turn and burn as fast as possible. Unrealistic turn around times that can only lead to shit happening, pilots burning out and in this case planes burning to the ground. I'm not suprised they were using non certified / faster pumps.

[esp803]

You know, there are these wonderful pumps that are approved and safe and carried by every single aircraft. They are called BOOST PUMPS!

Two seconds to disconnect a firewall fuel line and connect another hose for the purpose, and maybe a few minutes longer to pump

I'm not an AME, but there is no way I would be disconnecting boost pumps from my aircraft to pump out fuel. Also I would think it would take substantially longer to pump then a couple minutes... We haul fuel in our aircraft quite often and use Subaru pumps, very similar to the honda ones, but they ARE approved for fuel. More expensive, slightly slower and not nearly as reliable in the cold, but safe. The Subarus do 1800L in about 6 minutes. I don't think a boost pump has enough pressure to feed a 2" hose, 150' line, up into a tank.

E

[cratedriver]

Before it was put out...

[iflyforpie]

You leave the pump in situ. You turn off the firewall SOV and disconnect the fuel line to the engine and reconnect a longer hose. Most transport category aircraft have a quick disconnect for the fuel lines. I've done it into fuel trucks with boost pumps tons of time. 

Yes, it's going to be a lot longer, but better than the alternative if you don't have the proper pump me thinks.

[Doc]

Okay, I'll weigh in on this one. Poor old TTW finally met her fate. And in Sandy Lake, no less. This is the airplane that had the nose gear assembly fall out of the wheel well on me....in Sandy Lake. They came close to writing her off that day.
Water pumps to pump fuel? The Honda pump pictured is defiantly the pump I remember using. Part of the problem is (I'm thinking) that the bloody things did such a fine job for so many years, that replacing them with a "fuel" pump probably never crossed their minds. I've been away from that game for 12 years, and we never had an incident with the pumps??
Must wonder what the internal differences are between a water pump, and fuel pump? Don't know. Don't care.
I'm just really happy nobody was injured. This could have been a disaster of biblical proportions!


Bobby868 wrote...
"From what I've heard it's all about the turn around times at Wasaya. Push the planes, push the pilots to turn and burn as fast as possible. Unrealistic turn around times that can only lead to shit happening, pilots burning out and in this case planes burning to the ground. I'm not suprised they were using non certified / faster pumps."

Ancient history my friend. The "Fueler"(801) used to be pretty quick in the air, but it was a case of a "hungry" pilot (or 2), not said pilot being "pushed" by Wasaya. They have pretty quick turns....but it doesn't take long to off-load fuel. Were they supposed to enjoy a spot of tea before departure?

I used to fly for the guys who pretty much started the fuel hauling business in DC3's and Hawkers. This was before Wasaya. These guys pretty much invented the whole process. Have to say, although some of the methods were not "approved", (Hell, nothing was "approved" back then, we invented it as we went along) I never felt "unsafe" with the methods.

Again, really happy nobody got hurt!
L

[KodiakDriver]

Glad no one was hurt. What actually happenned was the fuel coupler at the pump began leaking when the pump was first started and began building pressure. Just a dribble at first but then turned into a full on spray, dousing the ground and everywhere. With a water pump without a sealed ignition and exhaust system, the mist ignited after maybe 10 seconds and the wind blew the fire back towards the aircraft. Without a large fire extinguisher handy, the aircraft slowly began to catch on fire. After maybe 20 minutes, the explosions started. Turning the pump off as soon as it began leaking would have saved the aircraft.

[Beefitarian]

Good thing they were doing JetA. That might have been quite the ka-boom if it were 100LL.

[F100SWB]

The pumps they use are a standard 2 inch water pump. I fixed many of them. The difference between a water pump and an explosion proof one are bronze internals, a shield on the muffler to prevent it getting sprayed with fuel and a sealed aircraft style ignition system. They are slower and aren't Honda reliable but they exist for a reason.

This exact same thing happened to the first 801 in 1991, C-FKTL it burnt down in Big Trout. The seal between the outlet neck and the main body failed and a stream of fuel hit the muffler. This was first hand info from the PIC who in the recent past spent some time in the wringer that is wasaya base management...

[FlyGy]

Before it was put out...

Not after?

[esp803]

iflyforpie,

Having never flown a transport category aircraft I didn't know that was an option... that being said those subaru pumps are awesome for this type of work. It's a shame that those honda pumps are so reliable... until something leaks near the exhaust or ignition....

On a side note, I stopped flying in that area about 2 years ago, when I left Calm Air's ATR72 and the AT802s (not sure on company) were doing the vast majority of the fuel hauling in the area... Did Wasaya recently underbid the ATRs and 802s?

E

[Gorgons]

Its a simple equation combine O2, fuel and an ignition source = fire

Take one element out of the formula and fire is impossible.

The problem with hauling high volumes of fuel by air into remote locations is getting it out of the tanks; it requires a pump, one with a decent flow rate so you don't sit in one location all day off-loading. These guys are hauling somewhere in the range of 1800 to 9000 litres per trip depending on aircraft, destination and fuel type. The aircraft is mobile and goes to wherever the mission requires, all the equipment required to do the job needs to be mobile too. I suspect they don't have the luxury of pulling up to an off-load location and using electric explosion proof pumps due to availability of hydro sources to plug the pump into. I guess they could haul around a gas powered generator and a couple hundred feet of extension cord to put distance between the fuel source and an ignition source to reduce the risk of fire, but is that practical. Barring that I think gas powered pumps become the reliable option. I'm not aware of any gas powered pumps that can claim to be "approved" fuel pumps. I bet they would appreciate being steered in the right direction, a few people chimed in with talk about them cheaping out by not purchasing approved pumps, can someone supply a link to a company, brand or model that sells or manufactures an approved for fuel portable gas powered pump?

[F100SWB]

Like I said, I am a former employee, and I came to them from a fuel handling/fitting background, so the use of the Honda pumps was a warranted concern to me, there are actually a fair number of pumps designed for just this purpose, these were the first two that come to my mind:
http://www.grpumps.com/product/product/173

http://www.dultmeier.com/products/search/7492

The suggestion of the right direction was met with "acceptable risk" every time I tried.
This is where acceptable risk got them:



I take offense to the comments about the fuel tank and cabinet in ZSJ, I can make no comments about current conditions of them, nor the current cleanliness of the area, but the current doors on that cabinet when used properly close nicely and are far from doors beaten off locks missing etc... The old doors that were on that cabinet, well, they were destroyed(the whole cabinet was quite bent) thanks to the tank having been drug around the north a few times before they finally put it in Sandy, if memory serves it went to ZMD first and then was hauled back across the winter roads...
Damaged/broken locks could be attributed to their policy of not giving anyone in the community a key in case a Pilot loses theirs(which costs them $50 to replace) or the one in the plane, this changed last Summer, when they finally started having daily fuel system checks done, but the agents who have the keys aren't necessarily there when a non sched flight lands still...
They were operating without any sort of dips or clear and brites on their fuel systems at all.
More times than I like to count I got a panicked phone call about a broken fuel system that I needed to go fix that was just an empty tank.

The major problem with Wasaya's northern fuel sites is they don't train the pilots on site operation other than turn fuel on, turn pump on, put nozzle in hole, pull trigger, go, while Perimiter quite wisely has an employee in the community who keeps things as the should be, including shoveling etc.

The more I talk about it, the more I'm glad I don't work there anymore and reading my post, it sure makes me sound disgruntled... LOL

[Liquid Charlie]

I used to fly for the guys who pretty much started the fuel hauling business in DC3's and Hawkers

well having been there and done that -- Austin always used "flame proof" pumps - while the fuel was in rubber bags in the back and they did blow one up in Moose's Knee - that was due to fuel weeping out of the bags after sitting pre-loaded over night and the old style inverters - inverters on = explosion -- uncle Gerry made it out the DV window - lol - Austin's installed fume detectors after that and changed the loading policy - seems they were far more pro-active than the present carrier.

NWT burned a Herc - same thing I believe -- started by a pump - the hercs now use a different system and can discharge 26,000 l in less than 15 minutes with a 4 inch hose providing the receiving tank can take that take that flow rate -

There are certainly better ways and certainly safer ways to do it - if the pilots think it's unsafe -- wtf -- man-up and write it up and get it documented under SMS and then if nothing changes get ALPA involved -- put your 1.9% dues to work for u -- get on your safety officer,s off his ass and hold the MEC chair's feet to the fire -- u guys are luckier than most -- u have the mechanism to change it -- end rant -----

Glad to see it was an entertainment event rather that a tragedy --