Sunwing 767's...?

[Planefreak2186]

I have a friend working for Sunwing Airlines that said a rumour is that Sunwing will be getting their own 767's after the EuroAtlantic leases end..? If this is true, where wiill they come from..

[FlyGy]

A certain company located at LAX perhaps?

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=82196&p=765834

[ILovePlanes]

Are they still leasing the 767 from EuroAtlantic for this summer season? I'm flying with them (Sunwing) to Amsterdam in mid-July.

[aerosexual]

Still Euro Atlantic 767's this season.

Well, Sunwing's parent company TUI has 767's that will soon be replaced by 787's. It makes sense to use those if anything. The 767's could spend the summer here in Canada while offering additional capacity in the winter over in the UK on top of the 787's. This is a more economical solution than what Air Transat has to do with A330's year round in Canada.

[Jean-Luc Monette]

It will be interesting to see who crews those 767, if that's what happens...

[ILovePlanes]

It will be interesting to see who crews those 767, if that's what happens...

Judging by what a lot of people have been recently saying about Sunwing, the crew will most likely be foreingers.

[aerosexual]

Let's remember, there's been talk of wide bodies at Sunwing for years now. Usually the talk centers around A330's though. What they need to do is make sure they have work for the airplane year-round to avoid the troubles that Air Transat is going through right now.

[tsgas]

Let's remember, there's been talk of wide bodies at Sunwing for years now. Usually the talk centers around A330's though. What they need to do is make sure they have work for the airplane year-round to avoid the troubles that Air Transat is going through right now.

Valid point about the mess Air Transat finds itself in. It's sometimes better to stick with a boring money maker like the B737-800 than to venture into an aircraft that is way too big for the market you serve year round.

[Jean-Luc Monette]

@ aerosexual & tsgas;

Assuming you guys are pilots...

No wonder our profession is in shambles... I have never seen any other group of employees take so much pride and being so critical and chauvinists about their colleagues (in the large sense) woes...

Instead, we should be rallying and fighting for the common goal of seeing all our peers holding decent positions in Canadian aviation.

[aerosexual]

Jean-Luc, I don't know if there is a language barrier, but I suggest you re-read the posts. Nobody has taken any pride at all regarding Air Transat's present situation, at least that's my position. All that is being said is that Sunwing should be careful to avoid getting into the situation that Air Transat is in right now. It's no secret that Group Transat and Air Transat are unfortunately losing money. There is over-capacity in the market, and part of the problem is what can you do year-round with wide-body airplanes as large as the A330.

[Jean-Luc Monette]

Jean-Luc, I don't know if there is a language barrier, but I suggest you re-read the posts. Nobody has taken any pride at all regarding Air Transat's present situation, at least that's my position. All that is being said is that Sunwing should be careful to avoid getting into the situation that Air Transat is in right now. It's no secret that Group Transat and Air Transat are unfortunately losing money. There is over-capacity in the market, and part of the problem is what can you do year-round with wide-body airplanes as large as the A330.

I don't think I have to re-read the posts at all, actually...

You mention overcapacity in the market; can you tell me why that is so? Before TUI began dumping their planes and pilots on the Canadian market via Sunwing, there wasn't any... The existing companies were doing fine, and pricing was right. The biggest complainers of overcapacity are the ones who are creating it and forcing the prices down.

[aerosexual]

Jean-Luc, I don't know if there is a language barrier, but I suggest you re-read the posts. Nobody has taken any pride at all regarding Air Transat's present situation, at least that's my position. All that is being said is that Sunwing should be careful to avoid getting into the situation that Air Transat is in right now. It's no secret that Group Transat and Air Transat are unfortunately losing money. There is over-capacity in the market, and part of the problem is what can you do year-round with wide-body airplanes as large as the A330.

I don't think I have to re-read the posts at all, actually...

You mention overcapacity in the market; can you tell me why that is so? Before TUI began dumping their planes and pilots on the Canadian market via Sunwing, there wasn't any... The existing companies were doing fine, and pricing was right. The biggest complainers of overcapacity are the ones who are creating it and forcing the prices down, re: Sam Char in a recent La Presse article and the CEO of Sunwing, in an article in one of thebCanadian aviation magazine early in 2012.

Jean-luc, you are taking any comments about Transat far too personally. I agree with you that Sunwing and the TUI group together are the main culprits right now of dumping capacity on the market. However, there was over capacity before as well, and other than the Thomas Cook Group (Sunquest), none of the other companies seem to be reducing their seats on the market. In fact, Westjet Vacations is taking a large slice these days too, and this was after they were providing capacity for Group Transat.

The big issue with Air Transat is that unfortunately with all of this happening, they find themselves in a very tough spot due to having large wide-body aircraft that they need to fill year-round. This is nothing new, nor is it a chauvinistic attitude against Air Transat.

[trey kule]

It seems there are one or two pilots who continually post about sun wing and the evil foreigners They seem to have an agenda. Perhaps working for the competition? Who knows? But their posts tend to be a little biased to say the least...not really fair comment. I see them popping up on several threads..Same story..evil foreign devils..Bad sunwing....poor Canadian pilots

If there are qualified people (typed and current) in Canada that are not getting the jobs (temporary) given to foreigners that is an issue. But if this is just a case of entitlement to training that is not necessary for a company to be providing for seasonal employment that is another..Seems the second is the case with Sunwing...No one owes anyone a job..
When they get their own equipment, I am certain they will do training, and the Canadain pilots trained will go with the machines in the off season to another jurisdiction..I suppose that is not OK either..After all it is then another country who has pilots wanting training... I wonder how many of the poor..."its not fair" crowd will mind that.
In any event, SunWing will never get to that stage unless they can do the seasonal work now..

[mbav8r]

It seems there are one or two pilots who continually post about sun wing and the evil foreigners They seem to have an agenda. Perhaps working for the competition? Who knows? But their posts tend to be a little biased to say the least...not really fair comment. I see them popping up on several threads..Same story..evil foreign devils..Bad sunwing....poor Canadian pilots

If there are qualified people (typed and current) in Canada that are not getting the jobs (temporary) given to foreigners that is an issue. But if this is just a case of entitlement to training that is not necessary for a company to be providing for seasonal employment that is another..Seems the second is the case with Sunwing...No one owes anyone a job..
When they get their own equipment, I am certain they will do training, and the Canadain pilots trained will go with the machines in the off season to another jurisdiction..I suppose that is not OK either..After all it is then another country who has pilots wanting training... I wonder how many of the poor..."its not fair" crowd will mind that.
In any event, SunWing will never get to that stage unless they can do the seasonal work now..

Seriously, seriously!One or two pilots think this is bad. How about ALPA canada board lobbying the government, how about ACPA doing the same. If you think it is ok to subsidize Sunwings operation with no training cost giving them a huge advantage over all, I repeat for those who aren't smart enough to get it, ALL other canadian operations doing the same work, you need to get you head removed from where the sun don't shine. 300 "foreign devils" will be here this winter, how many good Canadian jobs will be lost as a result of this. Maybe WestJet, Air Canada, Air Transat should also bring in foreign type rated pilots for their winter ops and maybe they should all have a training bonds too, hows 30,000 grand upfront sound to everyone, fair?

Edit; to add this "foreign devil" issue is one of ALPA Canada's top issues to be dealt with, this year.
"Captain xxxxxxx next reported on Canadian carriers, mostly charter operators, employing foreign pilots. Although there is a government process for hiring foreigners to fly Canadian airlines, the process is being abused by the carriers for economic gain. ALPA will be taking this concern to Canada’s Senate Standing Committee on Transport and Communications and will continue to address it with members of Parliament".

[trey kule]

Well, MB, thank you for making your point with civility and common courtesy..BTW. .I can still see the sun.
I dont work in Canada..There are over 1200 of us foreign devils working in country here. A goodly percentage of them Canadians...Hired on contact at higher wages becasue of holding a type rating and being current. Licenses validated, not converted..

I think Canada comes out just fine overall in the import-export of pilots..but I would welcome someone who can post with a little more civility to post the world stats. Canadian pilots working overseas vs foreign pilots working in Canada..

The agenda here , as I see it is not about pilots. But about SunWind having an economic advantage..Fair enough to debate that, but lets not cloak it in moral indignation for our poor domestic pilots who cant be given the opportunity.
If Sun wings has a better business model, than perhaps try to find a way to compete the way non Candian business's do...Not running to the government bleating about the unfairness of it all. Or trying to rile up the whole pilot population by screaming descrimination

When I read threads that are only marginally related to this issue, and a post is made by one or two people advising all pilots to write this or that person and complain, I question their motivation.

Lastly, as you seem to maybe have not understood what I posted. I did not say just one or two pilots found it bad. I said one or two pilots continually post about it, and more than occassionally, on threads that are really no relevant.
And I do think they have an agenda other than what is stated...and I am allowed that opinion without being so rudely told to take my head out of anyplace.

[mbav8r]

Ok trey kule, your point about one or two posting about this in non relevant threads may be true, I can't say.
The issue is very relevant to Canadian aviation and the future of some jobs in Canada. I don't know that I would call what Sunwing is doing a business model, is it a model when you abuse or contort rules to your advantage?
There are many post on avcanada about how the legislation reads and how Sunwing and Canjet to a lesser degree are abusing the legislation, I'll let you research that. The bottom line is twisting or omitting truths to gain an unfair advantage and then flooding the market with overcapacity will only endeavor to recycle good jobs to lower paying jobs, when one or more of these companies hit their breaking point.
As far as Canadians going out of country for higher paying jobs, good for them, if it works for them, however that will not last forever. I guess Canadian pilots aren't the only ones bleating to their respective governments.

The government had allowed airlines to hire foreign air crew to meet the shortage of pilots, especially commanders. But due to agitation by Indian pilots for higher emoluments, it asked domestic airlines to phase out expats by July 31, 2011. It later extended the deadline to December 31, 2013.

I haven't seen or heard of a pilot shortage in Canada, so until that is proven Sunwing, et al should have to follow the legislation as it is written to the letter;
Hiring Steps:

In almost all cases, foreign workers must have a valid work permit to work in Canada. When hiring a foreign worker, you, the employer must generally :
Submit an application for a Labour Market Opinion (LMO) to the Service Canada Centre responsible for processing applications.
Please note that you can apply for an (LMO) before the temporary foreign worker has been identified.
Before confirming a job offer, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada(HRSDC)/Service Canada considers whether :
The job offer is genuine;
The wages and working conditions are comparable to those offered to Canadians working in the occupation;
Employers conducted reasonable efforts to hire or train Canadians for the job;
The foreign worker is filling a labour shortage;The employment of the foreign worker will directly create new job opportunities or help retain jobs for Canadians;
The foreign worker will transfer new skills and knowledge to Canadians; and
The hiring of the foreign worker will not affect a labour disputes or the employment of any Canadian worker involved in such a dispute.

Lastly, I apologize for my head/ass comment, I hope I was able to make my point without offending you this time, to be fair it wasn't directed solely at you. I also will humbly suggest, where ever you are, if they don't have a shortage of pilots, your days of contract flying are likely number, outside of the obvious contract expiration. Hope for your sake and all Canadian pilots, there's something to come home to.

[aerosexual]

trey kule, mbav8r and others have pointed out numerous times what the issue is. The fact remains that their abuse of the legislation is causing a direct impact on companies who are not resorting to such tactics. Do you think Sunwing could afford to flood the market with overcapacity if they were to follow the same rules that others do? Maybe yes, maybe no, but the sad truth is that it is having a negative impact on Air Transat, Air Canada Vacations, Sunquest, etc etc. We are seeing the destruction of Canadian jobs as a direct result of again, a company who is misusing a legislation. This is a serious issue that most pilots understand, but you do not.

By the way, expat jobs overseas where there really are shortages of pilots is a different scenario than the situation in Canada with respect to Sunwing and their deployed pilots.

[trey kule]

Actually, as I mentioned previously, this issue does not affect me personally at this time.. And I would not be concerned to much about the other expats..Very experienced. Type rated. Current......they will just slip right into a job in Canada when all the countries adopt the protectionism status...well maybe not...some union or association issues to deal with. Keep up the pressure for protectionism, and reap the whirlwind.

My original post was about the posters that seem to , how can I say this, slant their veiws...Let me give you a benign example....

Employers conducted reasonable efforts to hire or train Canadians for the job;

Now I did not put the bold part in...but it does say hire or train Canadians...Sounds like they are skirting the law if you only read the bold part. So lets back up a bit...not far....5 words in fact...Employers conucted reasonable efforts....
That changes the meaning of that statement quite a bit....When looking at temporary workers, and that is what we are doing here, there is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to hire qualified people rather than paying the training cost for what amounts to ....well...a temporary worker. Most people who dont have a vested interest would say that is reasonable. So if they advertise and there are qualified, current Canadian pilots who are not being hired..that would not be reasonable.
But if someone thinks the government should mandate that they spend the costs of training a Canadian pilot for a temporary job so what.....they can then go work for anther company...If they were subsequently hired by AC would that be fair?

There are many facets to this debate, and it is to bad that it is so emotional for some that they can only see their side of it....which is why we see parts of sentence posted in bold and not the whole sentence , I suppose.

I doubt the govt is going to do anything about this situation unless big red makes it a political issue. Reasonable to some is not to others. And no one, as far as I can see, is skirting the regulations...They are applying them correctly..But hey, I have no vested interest in this so maybe can see both sides a bit clearer. Who knows.

In any event, if the posts stop showing up on unrelated threads , I will refraim from throwing water on the parade.

[mbav8r]

I'll make it short because you clearly don't get it, and it's not because you don't have a vested interest. The bold part is the relevant part. It does not state reasonable effort to hire. It says reasonable effort to hire OR train canadians. No other airline does this except Canjet, I believe they are more of a reciprocal, which on a one for one basis is perfectly acceptable. Yah you hang your hat protectionism,
That's what this is all about. If any country had qualified pilots not working, I would expect that country to do whatever it takes to have their citizens employed.

[cyrus]

TreyKule, finally someone posted something worth reading on this otherwise worthless, childish website. TreyKule, I admire your professionalism and intelligence in the matter. I agree with you that most of the complainers about what Sunwing is doing are either those that are working for the competition under business models that have not been valid for over 20 years, or those looking to climb the ladder in their career. The best advice I can give the latter is "do not apply to Sunwing". Apply everywhere else.

Most of you reading this have no idea how much time it takes (forget the money) to put a new hire through groundschool, an initial sim course, line indoc, just so that they might be able to be released to the line for the last month of the winter flying season. Suppose that Sunwing did hire all Canadian pilots for the winter program (I might add that their fleet goes from 9 planes in the summer which includes 3 that are flying in Europe, to 24 in the winter) and suppose there was enough flying in the summer to get all of these people line indoc'ed at around 100 hours each, and suppose they had the capacity in their training department to do such a feat....I can only imagine the bitching and complaining that would take place here about the fact that Sunwing laid off 300 pilots and that you were all out of work! Sunwing has made every attempt to hire as many "FULL TIME" pilots as they can afford to carry in the summer months, and subsidize their winter flying with foreign pilots. That's the type of business they are in...Vacation travel. Most Canadians vacation in the winter months when it is cold and shitty out. To top it all off, it doesn't help matters that after interviewing some of these young, energetic, keeners, that they decide to bail on the very company that gave them their shot at a big jet (relatively speaking) just months after completing their training to go fly for AC, WJ, etc. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see the day that Sunwing can support 450+ pilots all year round, but more importantly, I admire the fact that they don't hire and lay-off every six months. They provide stability in the pilot market whether you want to believe it or not. Imagine your feeling of getting hired, trained, and then laid off just to flip burgers (oh yeah, you can't go back to your old job because they replaced you when you left) for the next six months. Time to wake up boys and girls...aviation is changing...if you don't adapt, you will be left behind. Also, it is funny that AC is looking at hiring offshore for their Low Cost Carrier...maybe Sunwing is onto something, but as TreyKule said, there are WAAAAYYYYY more Canadians flying abroad than there are foreigners flying in Canada, so if you push hard enough, those individuals will be coming home and you can bet your ass that they will get hired at Sunwing long before someone with considerably less experience. Another interesting fact...there has never been any mention in this or any other thread about CanJet's hiring practices. They are under contract of Air Transat and they are employing foreign pilots! Hmmmmmm, very interesting. Albeit, not quite as many foreign pilots as Sunwing, but then again, they have yet to send one Canadian pilot to Europe on a reciprocal deal. For those of you at Transat that are continually bashing Sunwing, perhaps you should get your own house in order before you go out dictating how Sunwing should operate. If you didn't sub your work out to CanJet, you wouldn't be laying off pilots.

Oh, and another point for whoever said it...Sunwing Airlines is 75% Canadian owned by Colin Hunter and only 25% owned by TUI; Sunwing Vacations is 51% owned by Colin Hunter and 49% owned by TUI so TUI is not the parent company of Sunwing, rather TUI is a partner company.

Be careful what you wish for,

Cyrus

[mbav8r]

Oh I'm sure someone will respond to the previous, what can only be considered ignorant, post but I can't resist. It amazes me how someone who is obviously biased can't see the big picture and the irony in their post. If Sunwing cant do it properly they shouldn't be flying 24 AC in the winter, flooding the market with cheap seats. You will no doubt have your wish for them to have 450 pilots employed year round, unfortunately they will likely be from a company that failed because they couldn't compete with this completely disgusting type of business practice. I think it won't be long before airline CEOs replace lawyers as the scum of the earth, if not already. Some pilots, presumably from Sunwing are able to justify this in their mind because they won't be the ones starting over, bottom of some seniority list, at least until some other scumbag finds another more disgusting way to screw over Canadians. That's alright though, just keep telling yourself it's ok and I'm sure you won't lose any sleep, for now.
Ask yourself this question though, if every airline that serviced the vacation market did this, would that be ok with you???

[aerosexual]

cyrus, circumventing the law to one's benefit, while creating unfair competition is acceptable to you? That's really sad.

[imc]

Cyrus - I have to admit that I agree with some of your points and others make me cringe. However, your information about CanJet is VERY incorrect.

First off, CanJet brought over the grand total of 30 contract pilots last year, ALL of which were FO's. Out of 125 current pilots, over 80 are Captains, and they upgrade every single Canadian that can do the job.

Last summer, they DID in fact send 10 pilots to Europe to fly for Excel Germany. Unfortunately this didn't happen this year because of the economy.

This year they will have between 20-25 contract pilots and will have hired 20 new permanent FO's while upgrading over 10. There will be a reciprocal agreement next year barring a total collapse in Europe.

Fact of the matter is you cannot even begin to compare your company's practices to CanJet's. From the over 200 Captains and FO's you brought over to the wet leases of Travel Service crewed by the same pilots that couldn't pass a PPC there is simply NO comparison.

Sunwing has an unfair operational advantage as TUI parks their high paid help and CanJet are the ones that get thrown under the bus with you guys.

[trey kule]

It amazes me how someone who is obviously biased can't see the big picture and the irony in their post

LOL! You need to reread your posts and do some thinking about seeing the big picture.

BTW.....the only Canadians who are getting "screwed over", to use your words, are those who are not type rated.
What I see is a few scumbag pilots who want a company to qualify them even though it is not economically feasable for a temporary situation.....because...well gosh.. just because they are Canadian.

Though when you talk about flooding the vacation market with cheap seats I have to wonder if your real goal is not to get Canadian pilots hired because you know that is too expensive, but instead just get SunWing out of the market...If you really wanted Canadian pilots in there you would hardly be advocating SunWing stop the practice altogether, now wouldn't you. In fact, I would think you would be wishing them success and just asking they stop worrying about making money and spend any profits on helping you obtain your career goals...

[mbav8r]

No more civility, trey kule you're an idiot, the Canadians are already employed at better airlines. The cheap seats will eventually lead to a loss of those jobs. You're thicker than you sounded initially but now I see there is absolutely no way to have an intelligent conversation with you, so get your head out of your ass and you too may see the bigger picture. No other fk'n airline requires a type rating.
It's like beating my against against a brick wall, the definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over, expecting different results. If I respond to you one more time about this, I will have to check myself in to the loony bin.
I don't have nor have I ever had aspirations to fly for Sunwing.