Hiring Instructors

[shamrock104]

Its my opinion that you can teach the lessons required to pass the PPL at a very basic level meaning a new CPL with a fresh Class 4. Its extremely difficult to put forward "common sense", go/no go decision making skills. This can be achieved by a PPL with a bunch of hours and quality flight time rather than the guy with a shiny CPL and new rating and who is just there to build that precious PIC time. How about raising the bar for potential Instructor candidates rather than the current situation where any candidate with the required hours can go and train for their rating. Flightschools take note, pay a decent wage and benefits like any other profession and you may just attract "career Instructors" which will benefit the industry as a whole.

[gaamin]

Edit

[DanWEC]

Sorry to be entertaining a bit of a tangent here, but the longer I think about my previous comment re:training system being fundamentally backwards since it is an entry level position, the more I think about recanting it a bit.
The teachers in any field that generally teach the entry level are not usually seasoned experts in their field, but have a component amount of knowledge required to give the student what they need at that level only, before they progress to the next.
An elementary school teacher will know the basics, but generally won't have or need an operational background- the focus is on being a good teacher. Same with high school, but the line blurs a bit. University/college profs and PhDs will generally be working in the field, and are teaching at a higher level to people who already have the tools to interpret their teachings. Same goes for arts, music, etc. Andre Segovia wouldn't have been teaching scales on a guitar.
An exception is almost always a skilled trade program, ie, electricians- your teachers are almost always retired or part time tradesman. But I digress... Though aviation is a skilled trade.

So then, I suppose a class 4, teaching Ab initio, is the equivalent to an elementary teacher relaying the basic tools to the student, and as the student progresses and potentially specializes, will continue to be taught/work under people with more experience, such as company check/training captains, TC, etc.
So it's not "that" different from the regular system.

Edit- in no way should this be interpreted as demeaning in the slightest towards either entry level teachers or flight instructors! Just a disclaimer for anyone who might take it the wrong way out there in forum land.

[careerpilot?]

Border City in Lloyd

I loved training with you guys (got my PPL with you). Really made me feel like a member of the family there, rather than a customer. Some prefer to be catered to, but I loved being part of the team and having the feeling of ownership with the planes - more like a flying club. You don't get that in a metropolitan flight school! Richard and Steve really know their stuff and are dedicated instructors, not just time builders - we need more like you guys.

Sorry for the thread jack, but I wanted to give credit where due...

Cheers

Kelly

[Shiny Side Up]

Ok, who owes me money?

viewtopic.php?f=92&t=82518

[172sMatt]

Here a is question to those that do the hiring of class 4's.... What makes a good class 4 on paper? I read that there is not a shortage of resumes kicking around the flight schools, as you are rifling though them what makes you stop and look at...well MINE!

In other words, what makes a great instructor?

I ask because I love to teach and I love to fly! Combine those and I am a career flight instructor. This information could mold my future. If I don't have what people are looking for than I better start rethinking this asap.

Thanks

[Shiny Side Up]

What makes a good class 4 on paper?

On paper there's a few things. First at least have a good resume. I need to have all the pertinent stuff at the top. If I got to search through several pages for whether you even have an instructor rating, then I ain't going to bother. When I look through those things, I do look to see that everything is the way it should be. Hours should all line up and nothing should look fishy. Keep in mind we're talking right now not how to make it stand out, but rather how to keep in the pile. You really don't want to end up in my bad example pile - which if they are spectacularly so I will use as a demonstration to the CPL students we do have.

As for stand out points, I look for people who have time on different airplanes. Multi, IFR and Seaplane ratings are a plus, it doesn't say anything good about you if you flew one type of airplane for an entire 230 hours. Tailwheel time a definite plus, no matter how small, it says you at least went out of your way to try it. Make sure that time is real though, if I figure you padded some passenger time in there, its a quick trip to the discard pile.

Real work experience is also a plus. On that note, I do dislike resumes that have more volunteer work on them than real work, unless that volunteer work is aviation related, then its a plus.

Please avoid the use of the cloud paper.

That all said, the biggest way to make your resume stand out is to deliver it in person.

[172sMatt]

Thank you SSU. That is very informative and exacly what i was looking for. What about people skills? Lets face it at the end of the day if you can not sell yourself and the flight school, your not going to make a lot of money for either. I had a intro flight with a person who had the personality of a rock.

Also is past instructing experiance a good thing, say ski/snowboard instructors? Teachers?

[Shiny Side Up]

"People skills" really don't come through on paper though, everyone gives you a cover letter that tells you how hard of a worker they are, how great they are with people and how enthusiastic they are. You can only guage their people skills by meeting them in person. Admittedly though people who excessively highlight their people skills on their resume often would probably make better salespeople than instructors. Good instructors after all still have to be good sticks, so you still have to get an idea that flying airplanes is still their primary skillset that they focus on.

Past experience instructing isn't usually an indicator due to the above. Depends largely on the activty they instructed and how they went about it.

[delay256]

I understand that being professional and motivating yourself from day 1 is a key factor in your students achieving success but at some point a financial incentive has to come into play. I Instructed for nearly 3 years and I earned ;

First Year(Full Time): $8000
Second Year(Full Time): $9000
Final Year (Part Time): $3000

Instructors are severely underpaid in Canada whilst bearing a huge burden of responsibility on their shoulders. All my students passed their flight tests and I continuously strived to provide a high training standard but the CFI and Supervisor never saw any need to provide encouragement or financial incentive.

In the Middle East a flight instructor is paid minimum $2500 a month plus benefits plus flying hours.

I do wish to keep my rating current and pass on the torch whilst I am pursuing a different type of flying abroad.

[Beefitarian]

Could you afford to take flight training in the middle east if you are not a member of a royal family?

[Shiny Side Up]

Instructors are severely underpaid in Canada whilst bearing a huge burden of responsibility on their shoulders. All my students passed their flight tests and I continuously strived to provide a high training standard but the CFI and Supervisor never saw any need to provide encouragement or financial incentive.

Instructors are underpaid in this country because so many of them will accept being underpaid. Part of the problem being of course that so many instructors view the work as get in, get out, that it fuels the cycle. In many cases though instructors don't help their own plight, there's no shortage of opportunity to make money as one, but its all about supply and demand, and every business man know that the three most important things to being successful are location, location, location. You want to make money as an instructor, then you have to go where the work is.

[etihadCC]

I understand that being professional and motivating yourself from day 1 is a key factor in your students achieving success but at some point a financial incentive has to come into play. I Instructed for nearly 3 years and I earned ;

First Year(Full Time): $8000
Second Year(Full Time): $9000
Final Year (Part Time): $3000

Instructors are severely underpaid in Canada whilst bearing a huge burden of responsibility on their shoulders. All my students passed their flight tests and I continuously strived to provide a high training standard but the CFI and Supervisor never saw any need to provide encouragement or financial incentive.

In the Middle East a flight instructor is paid minimum $2500 a month plus benefits plus flying hours.

I do wish to keep my rating current and pass on the torch whilst I am pursuing a different type of flying abroad.

May i ask where you instructed and how many hours your flew in those years? I know instructors dont make much but is it really THAT low?

[Rookie50]

[quote="Colonel Sanders"]The recent landmark Seneca accident - 3 people died in a Bonanza due
to disorientation at night resulting in a spiral dive - had as PIC a class 1
instructor with precisely seven hours of actual IFR time.

That is really, really disturbing. The lack of actual experience out there is a concern. I have had my IFR for only 18 months and have 24 actual IMC hours, because I focused on carefully building experience in this area --- and all in a 172, not in something faster -- yet. A bonanza is so dangerous for an inexperienced IFR pilot, IMO. But then I've always had a healthy sense of caution.

I then trained and got my CPL to raise my flying standard, and because I might instruct down the road or volunteer fly. Then i did a 1000 mile cc, also to gain experience. You know what....I am at close to 500 tt. And realize how little I know. At 200 tt I though I knew something, now I know better. Instructors, encourage your students to carefully gain real world experience....can't learn it all staying in the circuit or the home patch. At least for me my best lessons have been not right at home.

[delay256]

I use to work about 250-300 hours a year instructing (Full Time). It was very rewarding, especially upgrading to a Class 3. It was just a struggle to financially sustain myself and the management of the flight school didn't seem to care.


@Beef - The cost of flying in the middle east is almost the same as choosing to do it in Canada. It helps that the weather is good for all of the year and most of the instructors here are doing about 60-75 hours a month.

The point I'm trying to get across is for doing a risky and highly skilled technical job they dont deserve to be paid an average wage of $8 an hour! (10 hours spent at the airport and get paid for 3)

[bluenote]

Shiny side up, how much do you want and where do you want me to send it?

[bluenote]

Ok, who owes me money?

viewtopic.php?f=92&t=82518

Well shiny side I'm waiting?

[Shiny Side Up]

I'm more interested in a story. What happened?

[bluenote]

Ok, who owes me money?

viewtopic.php?f=92&t=82518

Hey Shiny, I guess you think it's funny me losing my flight instructor job. Thanks for understanding.

[Shiny Side Up]

Not funny, just predictable. Its serious business man. What was the reason? You can sulk or you can help others learn. Up to you.

[Aviatard]

Not funny, just predictable. Its serious business man. What was the reason? You can sulk or you can help others learn. Up to you.

I would like to know too.

[CpnCrunch]

Sorry to hear things didn't work out for you, bluenote. Nobody here thinks it is funny, and we were all hoping things would work out for you. Maybe you should look into other ways of building your hours and experience other than instructing. I know you really want to be an instructor, but perhaps it just isn't going to work out. If you give more details about what happened, I'm sure Shiny and others can give you advice.

[Big Pistons Forever]

bluenote

Sorry to hear it did not work out for you. The details of why you are no longer working are none of my business, I just want to say that having experienced my fair share of employment "challenges" I know what a gut wrencher it is to be let go regardless of the circumstances.

I sincerely wish you the best in what ever path you choose.

[Beefitarian]

BPF is right bluenote, getting canned sucks even if I deserve it. Actually it usually hurt more if I deserved it. If someone gets rid if you and you know the reason is wrong or weak it's a relief to move on.

It's empowering to quit or get fired for something hilarious and intentional. Example being, there was a shut down at a fertilizer plant. The operators and the owner of the company had bicycles to get around. One of the guys took the owners bike and used it without permission. Helps that it was a short job and he would have been laid off soon anyways.

The point I'm trying to get across is for doing a risky and highly skilled technical job they dont deserve to be paid an average wage of $8 an hour! (10 hours spent at the airport and get paid for 3)

I bet a school doing that to instructors is also trying to get as many students as they can to put money on account before moving to another place with a new name.

Guys running that sort of operation are probably in dire need of a good sack beating!

[Aviatard]

I bet a school doing that to instructors is also trying to get as many students as they can to put money on account before moving to another place with a new name.

Guys running that sort of operation are probably in dire need of a good sack beating!

You have to realize, Beef, that most flight training schools in Canada operate this way. At least the poor pay part. It's typical to be paid only when flying, no benefits at all, pay for your own checkouts, maps and equipment. I don't know about the money on account thing.