Seneca College Crashes again, minor injuries.

[pto]

http://www.680news.com/news/local/artic ... ham-region

Another Seneca aircraft crashes. Both occupants are ok. What is happening over there?

[Johnny#5]

Maybe Jazz distracted them calling to offer a pilot position.

[Gogona]

I don't think there could be any original issue other than a hard/high speed/bouncing touchdown.

[AOW]

What is happening over there?

Perhaps this is applicable here:

I see 8-10kts tailwind (invisible to me as well) followed till after clearing south-end trees and after the stretched-out flare-period (3 seconds seemed long as pitot airspeed boosted in meeting west crosswind component mid-runway) allows the old red 68 Cessna to touch soon enough I guess. But now it was too fast on airspeed and quickly I realize 3/4gross is not letting it slow on this downslope ... evident in ~ 5 seconds of still relatively high groundspeed. I have full power on again at 60knots past halfway but aircraft now is very slow to accelerate on the grass but at the same time it's also hard too to see what's left of RWY over the (small) knoll ahead. At this point I 'dread the overshoot' and pull power off [facing a reality that the ACnow skids on the green grass ... eventually over the road into the vineyard where I am somewhat lucky for high wing

this is too easy.......

[FenderManDan]

Who knows what is the problem, glad both of them are ok.
Was that a grass landing exercise or that had an emergency?
Was it in 172 or Bonanza?

[tbaylx]

What is happening over there?

Perhaps this is applicable here:

I see 8-10kts tailwind (invisible to me as well) followed till after clearing south-end trees and after the stretched-out flare-period (3 seconds seemed long as pitot airspeed boosted in meeting west crosswind component mid-runway) allows the old red 68 Cessna to touch soon enough I guess. But now it was too fast on airspeed and quickly I realize 3/4gross is not letting it slow on this downslope ... evident in ~ 5 seconds of still relatively high groundspeed. I have full power on again at 60knots past halfway but aircraft now is very slow to accelerate on the grass but at the same time it's also hard too to see what's left of RWY over the (small) knoll ahead. At this point I 'dread the overshoot' and pull power off [facing a reality that the ACnow skids on the green grass ... eventually over the road into the vineyard where I am somewhat lucky for high wing

this is too easy.......

Oh good AOW, now PDW can come in and explain it to us in his very clear terms. Must have been the V winds?

[FlyGy]

Was it in 172 or Bonanza?

I've never heard of a Cessna Bonanza.

[AOW]

Was it in 172 or Bonanza?

I've never heard of a Cessna Bonanza.

It's a close cousin to the Cessna 7GCBC Cherokee-Muskateer.

[FlyGy]

That's why I love these boards so much. There is always something I can learn from you guys. Thanks for the info. I'm gonna go google that Cherokee-Muskateer now. How many seats?

[AOW]

How many seats?

IIRC, approximately 2.71828...

[FlyGy]

How many seats?

IIRC, approximately 2.71828...

Just right for me, the wife, and my 2 year old twins then. Know of any for sale?

[coreydotcom]

How many seats?

IIRC, approximately 2.71828...

Someone quoting the natural logarithm... ln...that made my day!

Or was it accidental? hehe... if my memory serves me right, the 1828 is periodic.

[Gessle64]

What is happening over there?

Too many SOPs, not enough focus on actually flying an airplane.

[Colonel Sanders]

natural logarithm ... the 1828 is periodic

No ... e is a wonderful, irrational number. A lot like a hot woman:

2.71828182845904523536028747135266249775724709369995

[126.7_STFU]

Does the Seneca program have some hidden clause which would have me believe that they are super humans who are not prone to accidents? I think not.

What's going on over there? I think what's going on is successful flight training for the most part mixed with a few who may in fact be incompetent. I think you will find that these types of events are somewhat isolated in practice and tend to happen all over the world!

This thread reeks of egocentric diarrhea

[Doc]

What is happening over there?

Too many SOPs, not enough focus on actually flying an airplane.

BINGO BINGO BINGO

[126.7_STFU]

What is happening over there?

Too many SOPs, not enough focus on actually flying an airplane.

BINGO BINGO BINGO

This thread reeks of egocentric diarrhea

[Siddley Hawker]

This thread reeks of egocentric diarrhea

Kaopectate oughta take care of that.

[Cat Driver]

What's going on over there? I think what's going on is successful flight training for the most part mixed with a few who may in fact be incompetent.

So what you are telling us is Seneca College of Applied Arts and Technology hires a few incompetent flight instructors because they are unable to identify them in their hiring process......and they just keep them until they wreck an airplane?

Just asking.......

[single_swine_herder]

This thread reeks of egocentric diarrhea

Kaopectate oughta take care of that.

I don't know about that recommendation Siddley, Kaopectate is rather old and somewhat passe now .... but I'll agree is eventually effective.

I've found something that reacts about the same as having a nice long drink of well-mixed 5 minute epoxy .... Immodium.

Works exceptionally well on the egocentric strain of diarrhea, while still offering an almost instant rectumification of the common verbal strain of diarrhea.

"Its Two, two, two strains in one" .... not unlike the Double Mint gum commercials.

No doubt, any "issues" at Seneca are similar to the same type of issues which are going on frequently at other FTUs in the country, or worldwide .... oh yes, I forgot ... they aren't FTUs, anywhere with some degree of structure to a training program is a "Puppy Mill." I wonder what the whole Commonwealth Air Training Plan was .... if not a huge series of "Puppy Mills," then at the very least they would be renamed as "Mink Breeding Farms" when viewed by the history revisionist group.

[Doc]

Not going to pretend to point fingers in the direction of "why" Seneca is having way more than an acceptable number of deaths/accidents/incidents, BUT if the commercial aviation world had an operation with this dismal a safety record there would be a TC investigation. Nobody's perfect, but I can think of way too many Seneca incidents. They are indeed a "puppy mill" and a very dangerous one at that. I realize TC is making like an ostrich these days, but C'MON MAN! These "gifts" to aviation are an embarrassment to the industry. They're making Keystone look pretty good?
I don't know where they're getting their instructors, but it's time to shop elsewhere.

[Gessle64]

I don't know where they're getting their instructors, but it's time to shop elsewhere.

Time to start paying for experience. Seneca is another one of those FTUs that attempt to teach with handouts and extensive SOPs rather than using good experienced instruction and guidance. Every now and then this flaw shows up as an accident. When an instructor racks a plane, it had better be mechanical and catastrophic.

[Gogona]

Gessle64,
I don't want to argue with you, but just curious – is there something wrong with Seneca's instructors? Are they too young and inexperienced, or something like that?

[Colonel Sanders]

Seneca's instructors? Are they too young and inexperienced

I guess you don't recall the recent night accident involving a Seneca College
Bonanaza. TSB concluded they lost control and spiralled in. Instructor had 7
(count 'em, seven) hours of actual instrument time. And a class 1 instructor
rating!

Seneca's reaction was to get rid of night instrument training, to decrease their
accidents. Think of 5 knot crosswind limitations. Unfortunately it also
decreases the skills of their graduates, so they go on to have accidents
after they leave Seneca, which I suppose makes sense to the people
who run the colledge.

Seneca College has instituted the limits shown below for single engine at night operations:

•All night flying is to be conducted in VFR weather only.
•Instrument or IFR training may be conducted at night in VMC only.

Doc said:

I don't know where they're getting their instructors

Like everyone else, they try to keep their costs down. The problem
is, every once in a while, you get what you pay for.

Do you suppose that instructors that teach long-lining on helicopters
have 250 hrs?

[Siddley Hawker]

I don't know about that recommendation Siddley, Kaopectate is rather old and somewhat passe now .... but I'll agree is eventually effective.

I've found something that reacts about the same as having a nice long drink of well-mixed 5 minute epoxy .... Immodium.

Works exceptionally well on the egocentric strain of diarrhea, while still offering an almost instant rectumification of the common verbal strain of diarrhea.

"Its Two, two, two strains in one" .... not unlike the Double Mint gum commercials.

I've a passing acquaintance with that stuff swine. Suffice to say, had it been invented by Marvin the Martian it would be labelled Immodium Q36 Explosive Ass Modulator.