New Contract thread

[061mtce]

how come ac don't want the emj? I thought emj is popular and economic mja.

[Sea2Sky]

No, 787s to stay at mainline. 37 + options for more. Possibly a few more 777s.

Narrowbody Bus fleet replaced at a 2:1 ratio. So add 1 NJA for every 2 320s gone. I have my money on the 737, but it will be a single type, whatever they are.

[slob driver]

Are new-hires in a hybrid DB/DC pension similar to what other AC unions were handed in arbitration, or is the DC pension the only pension available to new-hires? As well, if there is a DB component, what are the numbers like I.E. 1% per YOS to a max of 35 years? Is anyone willing to share the LCC pay rates. These certainly affect the industry as whole, whether someone is a WJA, TRZ or AC pilot.

[ChallengerDan]

I have my money on the 737, but it will be a single type, whatever they are.

The 737 and 737MAX are fine aircrafts, but for AC it might lack the pallet-cargo feature, which is an important part of the business at AC from what I understand. It seems to be one factor skewing the economics in favour of either type. Just a thought.

A mix of CSeries and A32SNeo would probably work replacing E190 and A32S.

[Fanblade]

Narrowbody Bus fleet replaced at a 2:1 ratio. So add 1 NJA for every 2 320s gone. I have my money on the 737, but it will be a single type, whatever they are.

Nope. It says the company can reduce 2 320's for every extra wide body introduced. However the over riding line in the sand is the new domestic ASM ratio. I suspect the narrow body fleet will shrink slightly but through up gauging.

Mainline/LCC domestic ASM's will need to increase to put in place the amount and type of CPA flying contemplated.

[Fanblade]

A mix of CSeries and A32SNeo would probably work replacing E190 and A32S.

I can't see the C series unless they build bigger. They want a single fleet type for replacement.

[CAL]

I think the avcanada folks should explain as to why it was taken down....that is what they normally do....but this is their site and they can do what they want with it...sort of like the management of air canada or sorry the government of canada...I keep getting them mixed up...I have no idea how you will get guys to come fly for you on those salaries but then again so many others live on poverty already and this way they can be broke but at least not broke in the middle of no where...

[tallyho]

Thanks Turbo-beaver for posting the quick summary of the contract. So the pay isn't changing too much, a bit worse over the course of 4 years but way better first two, although I'm still not sure exactly what happens to it after year 4, just use the same numbers as on airlinepilotcentral.com???

Pension isn't as good as before but still much better than pretty much every other flying job out there.

Anyone hired after 30 July would in all likelihood be relegated to the LCC on the LCC pay scale, right? Would these people at least keep the seniority number from AC which would be used at the LCC?

Jeez, too many ifs and buts.

[BushCaddy]

Are new-hires in a hybrid DB/DC pension similar to what other AC unions were handed in arbitration, or is the DC pension the only pension available to new-hires? As well, if there is a DB component, what are the numbers like I.E. 1% per YOS to a max of 35 years? Is anyone willing to share the LCC pay rates. These certainly affect the industry as whole, whether someone is a WJA, TRZ or AC pilot.

New hires will be on DC pension only.

As for the pay rates, I won't post the tables, but 767 CA starts at $118, and 320 CA starts at $130. (Those number are rounded, but yes, the 320 CA will make more initially) The pay for the 767 was apparently based on Air Transat rates, while the 320 was based on WestJet rates.

As for flat pay for the first 4 years, looks like $47,000 for year 1 up to $67,000 for year 4. (again, rounded and don't quote me on these ones.)

Good luck on whatever you guys choose to do.

[Fanblade]

Anyone hired after 30 July would in all likelihood be relegated to the LCC on the LCC pay scale, right? Would these people at least keep the seniority number from AC which would be used at the LCC?

Jeez, too many ifs and buts.

The LCC does not even have a firm plan as of yet. My guess would be fall of 2013. The corps first priority appears to be tier 2/3 structural changes.

First there will need to be a bid with the LCC on it. I suspect FO's will bid the left seat positions.

Other than a two year freeze from bidding back and forth (LCC to mainline) and very restrictive ability to change aircraft, everyone is on the same seniority list.

[Johnny Mapleleaf]

I think the avcanada folks should explain as to why it was taken down....

I am not one of the AvCanada "folks" but I will lay you dollars to donuts that the original thread was deleted because of abuse in the form of childish slander. The fact is, you don't have to be qualified or mature to obtain an ID and post here, and some clearly are not. As a result, we all suffer.

[pilotbzh]

It's important tha wanabes know what they getting into so here are the new pay rates included the 5% raise of Aug 1st...

[pilotbzh]

And For LCC

[loopa]

I haven't followed the AC debate on the new contract because there were too many factors that I lost track.

But looking at the above posted pay scale, at 80 hours/month a First Year F/O brings in just over 48k before per diems? Isn't this more than what the old contract was ? I thought the old contract you started at 38.5k before per diems?

What's this complaint that I keep hearing about aviation turning for the worst? Looks like a raise... I'm not a troll, just curious as for what the complaining is about. Even the LCC you're making around 44k at 80 hours a month as a first year F/O on a narrow body.

Is it the pension plan that's bothering people? Is it that certain groups have to go to LCC? I can see those things, but I kept hearing over and over again how terrible the wages were going to be at AC and that doesn't look too far away from industry standard to me. Jazz doesn't even pay 44k before per diems.

Thanks in advance to the ones who aren't going to rip me a new one explaining the issue that AC pilot's are so riled up about...

Cheers

[navajo_jay]

I agree, I was expecting way worse..

[Mig29]

I haven't followed the AC debate on the new contract because there were too many factors that I lost track.

But looking at the above posted pay scale, at 80 hours/month a First Year F/O brings in just over 48k before per diems? Isn't this more than what the old contract was ? I thought the old contract you started at 38.5k before per diems?

What's this complaint that I keep hearing about aviation turning for the worst? Looks like a raise... I'm not a troll, just curious as for what the complaining is about. Even the LCC you're making around 44k at 80 hours a month as a first year F/O on a narrow body.

Is it the pension plan that's bothering people? Is it that certain groups have to go to LCC? I can see those things, but I kept hearing over and over again how terrible the wages were going to be at AC and that doesn't look too far away from industry standard to me. Jazz doesn't even pay 44k before per diems.

Thanks in advance to the ones who aren't going to rip me a new one explaining the issue that AC pilot's are so riled up about...

Cheers

Depends from what and who's perspective you look at these pay scales. Keep in mind that there are non-pay related issues that are not mentioned by the above poster. Those will affect everyone down the road, whether you are at AC, WJ, Transat or Jazz.

It may not be "that bad" as you guys say, but it's a step in BACKWARD direction and that is not positive at all.

Just my honest opinion...

[pilotbzh]

For a fair comparaison her is the 2008 rates

July22008.pdf

(102.04 KiB) Downloaded 301 times

[126.75]

I understand there have been some concessions but what are they? The new pension sounds WAY better to a new hire than the old one. After 5 years the company will match your contributions to 175%!!!! Lets say you're 30 you have 30 years to compound that retirement fund, and that's ignoring the people getting hired in their mid to late 20s. Sure there are some people over 30 getting hired but chances are they have already begun saving towards retirement.

Please tell me the reasons why this new contract is such a blow to the industry? I hear everyone saying how bad it is - but I'd like to know why it's so bad? I am thinking of throwing my application in with confidence with the new contract from what I see...

[loopa]

Like above I'm confused too.

WestJet first year works out to be 50k... AC is 48K. I'd say that's pretty damn close.

At the end of the day we should all be fighting for better rights as a Pilot. It doesn't make sense that a KLM 200 hour second officer makes 64k Euros/yr start salary and a 5000 hour 705 captain going to AC making 48k... but given the industry we are in and given the competition we are up against, I'd say AC's new pay scale looks better and more attractive than before.

I'm sure we will get some opinionated (and perhaps rightfully so) individuals telling the tale on why the new contract is so bad. I still have to remember that I'm seeing the outside picture, and could be affected by the grass is greener theory.

[CanadianEh]

I understand there have been some concessions but what are they? The new pension sounds WAY better to a new hire than the old one. After 5 years the company will match your contributions to 175%!!!! Lets say you're 30 you have 30 years to compound that retirement fund, and that's ignoring the people getting hired in their mid to late 20s. Sure there are some people over 30 getting hired but chances are they have already begun saving towards retirement.

Please tell me the reasons why this new contract is such a blow to the industry? I hear everyone saying how bad it is - but I'd like to know why it's so bad? I am thinking of throwing my application in with confidence with the new contract from what I see...

It doesn't matter what the pay is if AC now has the ability to outsource the flying. How many aircraft they decide to outsource/to whom/at what price are still to be determined. Your reaction is typical of what management was hoping for "Hey, we are earning more per hour, that's great!" WRONG. You have to look at the total compensation, which has taken a few steps back. There are also changes to allowances for training, claiming meals, per diems etc. which all add up but are often not factored in.

[126.75]

For what it's worth I heard that the ratio of other Tier flying to AC flying is 29:100 which is very similar to what it is right now. How can they outsource much more without expanding mainline?

[Big Pistons Forever]

For what it's worth I heard that the ratio of other Tier flying to AC flying is 29:100 which is very similar to what it is right now. How can they outsource much more without expanding mainline?

The same way the did with Sky Regional.......they just did it and ACPA rolled over.....

[Kestral]

Compared to most flying Jobs in Canada this is still pretty good IMHO. Especially if you're in your late 20's - mid 30's and don't mind living in Toronto or close by and able to commute without too much stress.

However, if you are older and more established with a family and have a home in an more personally appealing city/town of the county it may just not be for you to make a move to the bottom of the seniority list and wait the 5+ years for higher pay rate??

Again I am saying this in comparison to other jobs in Canada and Canada only. Seems to me that it's the entire industry that has to change not just AC.

[Legacy]

Ok I gotta admit. I have had a few beers. But did I just see a 319 captain starts off higher than a 767 captain?

[Fanblade]

Ok I gotta admit. I have had a few beers. But did I just see a 319 captain starts off higher than a 767 captain?

Yup.


The 319 wages are a mirror of WJ

The 767 wages are a mirror of AT