Post your landing fees!

[looproll]

I'm pretty fed up with the fees at my local airport. I have my aircraft based in Fort McMurray and they are gouging everyone left, right and centre trying to fund their new terminal building. The landing fee for small aircraft has increased from $5 to $15.75 with tax! They also charge .067 per litre on AVGAS. Plus here is the tie down fee (no power - nothing):

Small Aircraft Tie Down Fees:

All below rates are based on a one year lease term.
2011 $600.00
2012 $700.00
2013 $800.00
2014 $900.00
2015 $1000.00
2016

$1000.00 plus Alberta CPI or 2% (whichever is greater)

source: http://flyfortmac.ca/RatesFees.aspx


I'm curious what others are paying these days. Here there is no option to go to another airport. There are no farms, therefore no farm strips. This is the only airport around for the public. Now we also have the highest AIF that I know of. $30 a head for every departing passenger! This is insane.

[it'sme]

They also charge .067 per litre on AVGAS

I wish I was paying less than 7 cents per litre for anything!

[Sulako]

Try operating out of Pearson.

At YYZ on our Citation 550's and 560 Ultra, we pay the following:

Landing fee (peak) $181.04
Landing fee (non-peak) $101.64

Oh, we also pay $3,800 per month to hangar each of our 3 aircraft, which totals out to $136,800 per year. Our only current realistic alternative is Hamilton, which is about 90km west - currently far enough away that my boss hasn't really considering moving our base there. As the GTAA basically hates corporate aviation - they'd rather collect even more astronomical fees from airliners than us little guys - they will eventually push us out, though hopefully not until Pickering is built (that's me making a joke btw).

[Shiny Side Up]

Not sure what there is to do about this problem except make more airstrips. The big problem I see with almost every public airport in Canada is too many fingers in the pie trying to get stuff out of it. A lot of places I've seen the commitees that run such things have ballooned.

Tie down rate seems typical, for Alberta at least. Everywhere around here is in the $55 to $70 per month, CYBW I think is at the top of that heap at $80/month.

Personally I'd expect your landing fee to go up. I was through CYQF the other day and got a $25 bill for landing there in a single engine four seater, and its not half as busy as CYMM.

Here's something to think about. Every airport that charges landing fees requires a staff to do so and a budget to stamp and send out envelopes and bills, Even if this staff is paid minimum wage (and we'll use Alberta's the lowest in the country at $7.50/hour) and only works a 40 hour week (which wouldn't be terribly efficient since you'd miss being able to bill a lot of the traffic) That costs the airport $15,600 a year to administer - so they got to break that much in return on the landing fees alone to make it worth while. At a rate of say $25/landing that means that airport has to see at least 624 landings per year to break even on just paying the person who bills landing fees. If we assume that all of those 624 landings happen during the person's on duty time for them to record them, that means your airport has to sustain at least 3.333 (repeating of course) landings per hour, just to break even. One can see that if we have an entire shift of people to cover all times, or pay the person more than minimum wage the cost goes up significantly - the usual solution is of course to raise fees if you speak with anyone involved with an airport authority. This also ignores the costs of postage and stationary to accomplish this task, not to mention that the airport is always going to be behind collecting payment vs paying the employees, and doesn't mention the possible large ammout of delinquent aircraft who might refuse to pay.

The point of the matter is that landing fees don't work as a revenue stream for an airport if its useage level is below a certain threshold. Canadians really need to take a look south of the border if they want to find out ways of making airports (especially small ones) sustainable in this country.

[Beefitarian]

Canadians really need to take a look south of the border if they want to find out ways of making airports (especially small ones) sustainable in this country.

There's the big reason for landing fees. The only airplanes Canadians like are the ones taking them to Cabo. The rest of them make too much noise.

[CpnCrunch]

I guess that's just Fort Mac for you. In Southern Alberta most of the small municipal airports have no landing fees or tie-down fees (or any fees for that matter).

You're perfectly free to set up your own airstrip...all it requires is a few acres of land, a lawnmower and a windsock

[imarai]

Things you may not know:

- Alberta's minimum wage is $9.40 per hour (and may be raised soon).

- Most (if not all) of Canada's major airports, including the majority of regional airports are on federal land, so the airport operating authority (AOA),still has to pay rent to the federal government. Not so in the U.S.A.

For Customs service, some airport operators have to pay Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) an annual fee to ensure International customs services. At one regional airport that I know of, the annual fee is in excess of $20,000, even though CBSA has no fixed office at the airport.

At Edmonton/Villeneuve (CZVL) the landing fees per 1000 kg are as follows:
10,000 kg or less $3.00
10,001 kg or greater $3.50
Parking fees after 6 hours 10,000 kg or less: $13.00 per day, $120 per month, $720 annually.
" " " " " 10,001 kg or greater $20 per day, $180 per month, $1080 annually.

At Edmonton/Cooking Lake (CEZ3) there are no landing fees. Parking adjacent Taxiway B: 1st week free, charges after one week will be levied on a case-by-case basis.

According to the COPA web site, at Red Deer Regional (CYQF) there are no landing fees to private aircraft under 2,000 kg. Otherwise, it is $36.00 to land at Red Deer. Parking is $7.00 per day. There is a facility user fee for aircraft 6 seats and up.

At Lethbridge, (CYQL), turbine aircraft are charged a landing fee. A Customs fee for all international arrivals are also levied.

[Mighty 150 Flyer]

You must remember that years ago the Liberals brought in the user pay system. You use it you pay for it!! All the major airports were funded with tax payers money (income tax). The Liberals cut all their liabilities by passing the airports off to "authorities". Did anyone see a drop in their income tax? Same situation with Nav Can.

[trey kule]

The beauracrat that first coined the term "user fee" has, no doubt, been given great honors.

Nowthe federal and provincial governments can just take all those fuel taxes, land taxes, leases etc, and send the money to subsidize Quebec University fees..Us evil aviation types can pay.
The airport authorities seem to continually be trying to outdo one another with magnificant facilities, including the latest and nicest management offices in the terminals.
"Build the facilities and they will come"...is their motto...and then we can really fleece them.
Landing fees, nav fees, departure fees, improvement fees, all on top of fuel taxes, land taxes or lease.

It will never end until we stand up as a unified group. Right now they take us on one at a time...No way to fight that and win.

The people at the receiving end of this money grab will wail about increasing costs, and explain how they are , oh so careful with the money...bolderdash...

Posting the landing fees is not going to do a bit of good if all it does is make people gnash their teeth and whine.
Boycotting your home base is not an option...
The only option is to form a collective organization in your local area and file a law suit...Sad, but otherwise any efforts will be simply sidestepped by those that know better how to fill thier pockets with our money.

[looproll]

I guess that's just Fort Mac for you. In Southern Alberta most of the small municipal airports have no landing fees or tie-down fees (or any fees for that matter).

You're perfectly free to set up your own airstrip...all it requires is a few acres of land, a lawnmower and a windsock

I wish it was that easy. Too bad it's all muskeg up here and the Crown is holding onto all the land.

I'm curious what other GA pilots are paying at similar sized airports.

[Shiny Side Up]

According to the COPA web site, at Red Deer Regional (CYQF) there are no landing fees to private aircraft under 2,000 kg. Otherwise, it is $36.00 to land at Red Deer. Parking is $7.00 per day. There is a facility user fee for aircraft 6 seats and up.

That's out of date then, or the person I had a long talk with on the phone was mistaken though it didn't get me out of the bill, They claimed that the new levy was for anything under 2000lbs, max gross, which pretty much means everything now. They wanted to charge even more but I had to convince them I didn't have 8 seats in a Cessna 180.

I guess that's just Fort Mac for you. In Southern Alberta most of the small municipal airports have no landing fees or tie-down fees (or any fees for that matter).

There's a battle ahead to keep it that way. I got no problems with paying for a tie down spot, even if it is just overnight, but there's a lot of guys getting into management commitees and groups who are working hard to find ways to charge landing and other surface use fees. The availability and lowering price of monitoring devices is fueling the interest in it. While its nifty to have a weather cam at your little field to check weather remotely, that same cam can be used to bill you for comming and going.

[ahramin]

The Nanaimo Flying Club has done an amazing job fighting against a typical airport authority that thinks anyone who owns a $25 000 plane must be a millionaire. Parking is $360 per year for flying club members, and no landing fees for aircraft under 2500 kg. Cheapest parking I ever had was in YQU: free if you bought fuel from the fbo.

Anything up to $600 a year at the smaller busy airports seems reasonable to me and that's as high as I've seen in BC.

The trick is getting control of the airport board of directors. All the airports are controlled by some group that is elected or more usually appointed by some elected body. In YMMs case probably appointed by city council. Get involved. Try to get yourself on that board. In the case of Nanaimo there isn't a single member of the BOD with a pilots licence, which is ridiculous. Find out if it's the same situation in your area, get friendly with the people who appoint the people in charge, and use your credentials to get appointed yourself. In all cases, those of you who complain to everyone about your local airport's policies except the policy makers: get involved. Write letters, form groups, arrange meetings, complain to the right people. And most of all remember that at the end of the day these people are accountable to you. It may be a long, convoluted and corrupt chain, but in the end they are almost always accountable to the people in the community.

[Colonel Sanders]

Wow.

No landing/ramp fees. No tiedown fees for up to 89 days. If you
keep an aircraft at the airport for more than 90 out of the last 365
days you must become a member ($120/yr) which also includes fuel
discount, full terminal building access, rental aircraft privileges, etc.

You wouldn't believe how many people complain bitterly about paying
$120/yr for all of the above. I guess they can get it cheaper at a lot
of other airports in Canada.

By policy, cheapest 100LL in the area via a self-serve credit card
system.

4000 foot paved runway. Snow plowed in the winter, grass is cut
in the summer. ARCAL with PAPI. NDB and GPS approaches and
surface level aerobatics is permitted.

Again, many people think $120/yr is too much for all of the above.

[iflyforpie]

Landing fees fees for commercial aircraft only. Piston: $25/landing. Turbine: $35/landing. Flight school aircraft exempt as (currently) are any lavish planes privately registered but under a 12345 BC or AB kind of thing.

Private parking is $10/night, $40/mo, or $405/yr. Day parking is free. Monthly and yearly parking includes a space for a spare vehicle for those who leave one here.

Commercial piston: $15/night. Turbine: $20/night.

The runway is plowed in the winter, and our office is open with lounge, fireplace, washroom, and coffee almost everyday except Christmas break.


The trouble with airports is they are infrastructure, very land and resource intensive infrastructure that brings in very little in terms of direct revenue. Those outside of aviation will seek to do one of two things: they will either try to recuperate as much of the operating costs through outrageous user fees, or they will let it languish or close it to save money.

An airport is like a highway or any other form of transportation infrastructure. It costs money, but indirectly it brings in money. Our town gave up supporting our airport years ago, yet they benefit not only from the numerous tourists, $200 hamburger seekers, and vacation home owners who spend their money here, but also having a vital infrastructure for medevacs and fire protection.

[Raybanman]

Wow.

No landing/ramp fees. No tiedown fees for up to 89 days. If you
keep an aircraft at the airport for more than 90 out of the last 365
days you must become a member ($120/yr) which also includes fuel
discount, full terminal building access, rental aircraft privileges, etc.

You wouldn't believe how many people complain bitterly about paying
$120/yr for all of the above. I guess they can get it cheaper at a lot
of other airports in Canada.

By policy, cheapest 100LL in the area via a self-serve credit card
system.

4000 foot paved runway. Snow plowed in the winter, grass is cut
in the summer. ARCAL with PAPI. NDB and GPS approaches and
surface level aerobatics is permitted.

Again, many people think $120/yr is too much for all of the above.

Wow! Where is this nirvana!?! I want in!

[kamikaze]

Darn, I'm just a little too far from Smith's Falls to make it worth my while I think ... Maybe I'll move closer some day, because that sure is cheap!

Rockcliffe does have very cheap fuel as well ... but I have an annual tie down fee of about 700$ I think (not electrified). Then there's the membership fee on top of that.

120 * number of members doesn't really pay for the costs of alll the field maintenance and other upkeep though does it? ... does the rest come from the businesses and hangar owners and so on? Or does the municipality chip in?

Still, for the Location Rockcliffe can't be beat. Very affordable fuel, no landing fees of any kind, flight school, "terminal building" with all the usual facilities, summer time food, operates year round, etc ... no instrument approaches though.

YND (Gatineau) and YRP (Carp) also have no fees. YND fuel is more expensive however, but I think their tie downs are a little cheaper. Arnprior also fee-less. At least for small aircraft.

[Shiny Side Up]

You wouldn't believe how many people complain bitterly about paying
$120/yr for all of the above. I guess they can get it cheaper at a lot
of other airports in Canada.

Oh, I'd believe it, if only because its what we used to charge here at CFX2. There are no landing fees as of yet, though its a constant fight against it.

An airport is like a highway or any other form of transportation infrastructure. It costs money, but indirectly it brings in money.

What we need to do as aviators it get the message through to the other levels of government how much money they bring in. Incidentally I've seen the economic impact assessment for Smith Falls airport (done in 2002), it accounts for nearly 2 million dollars of business a year that benefits the town directly. One would hope that a little bit of that trickles back to the airport itself. This is the one thing I've seen that the Americans are doing extremely well and that there currently is nothing on the table in Canada regarding. COPA was getting the word out about a study that TC was supposed to be conducting to see the economic impact of aviation (GA in particular) in Canada, and the effort that has been expended in this regard is minimal and depressing. A stark contrast to reading every issue of the AOPA mag which constantly has updates on which ears are sympathetic to aviation in Congress and the Senate.

Anyone know of any MPs, MLAs or Ministers who are known to have aviation interest or on their agenda? I mean not in a negative way. Didn't think so.

[skymarc]

CYND charges landing fees on twins and turbine aircraft.
They bundle it up with commercial aircraft even if operated private.
BTDT.

Darn, I'm just a little too far from Smith's Falls to make it worth my while I think ... Maybe I'll move closer some day, because that sure is cheap!

Rockcliffe does have very cheap fuel as well ... but I have an annual tie down fee of about 700$ I think (not electrified). Then there's the membership fee on top of that.

120 * number of members doesn't really pay for the costs of alll the field maintenance and other upkeep though does it? ... does the rest come from the businesses and hangar owners and so on? Or does the municipality chip in?

Still, for the Location Rockcliffe can't be beat. Very affordable fuel, no landing fees of any kind, flight school, "terminal building" with all the usual facilities, summer time food, operates year round, etc ... no instrument approaches though.

YND (Gatineau) and YRP (Carp) also have no fees. YND fuel is more expensive however, but I think their tie downs are a little cheaper. Arnprior also fee-less. At least for small aircraft.

[lost in the north]

In Gillam Mb. It's 32.00 for small aircraft.Private aircraft are exempt.

[Colonel Sanders]

Anyone know of any MPs, MLAs or Ministers who are known to have aviation interest

Actually, our local MP, Scott Reid, is a strong supporter of the airport at CYSH. He frequently attends our various events. His brother is a pilot at Vintage Wings at CYND.

Also, Brian Jean, the MP from Fort Mac, learned to fly here. He is the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Transport.

We are lucky enough to have a very supportive municipal airport commission. They think we are doing a great job operating the airport, and try to do everything they can to help us, within their financial ability to do so.

I know of other airports in the area that are not so lucky - the airport commissions are outright hostile to aviation, which I find bizarre.

[Shiny Side Up]

I know of other airports in the area that are not so lucky - the airport commissions are outright hostile to aviation, which I find bizarre.

Not so bizarre when one delves into who these people are and where their main interests lie. Some may cloak themselves in the appearance of pilots or aircraft owners or otherwise enthusiasts, the problem being that they are often home owners and property developers first, airport people second. Pilots, whom one would think would always come out in favor of an airport's survival, aren't always reliable in this regard for the reasons above. Few people who get involved in aerodrome management really have any experience with it, these comissions are often overspending where they don't need to, not attentding to important aspects.

It really doesn't help that pilots, by and large, are incredibly apathetic or willfully ignorant about how their aerodromes are managed, until of course the rates are hiked.

[looproll]

Things you may not know:
- Most (if not all) of Canada's major airports, including the majority of regional airports are on federal land, so the airport operating authority (AOA),still has to pay rent to the federal government. Not so in the U.S.A.

For Customs service, some airport operators have to pay Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) an annual fee to ensure International customs services. At one regional airport that I know of, the annual fee is in excess of $20,000, even though CBSA has no fixed office at the airport.

in Fort McMurray, the rent was $1 and no customs (yet)

[coreydotcom]

at CYHU for me (C152 in flight school environment):

$9.95 per landing (or 9.99 i never remember).... they will start charging for touch & go's soon (all plus tax, of course).

[Old Dog Flying]

And of course we are all paying the well hidden Transport Canada Avgas fuel tax that has been in effect since 1978 which was put in place to cover landing fees, flight planning fees, weather briefing fees..each at $5.00 per.

This tax started out at 1.43 cents per litre and kept climbing to 17 cents per litre until Mr Off Shore Martin became Finance Minister at which time he rolled it into General Revenue and claimed that there was no Ga Avgas tax.

Whatever the tax is now is a big question but it is well hidden. Unfortunately I was the one that trustingly recommmended a tax in place of the 5 bucks,5 bucks, 5 bucks. that would have really screwed things up.

[Geo]

Did anyone see a drop in their income tax?

Yes.

The income-tax bracket boundaries were all re-indexed in the 90s during Jean Chretien's reign (Paul Martin, Finance Minister)*, and the rates in the brackets dropped. I don't recall all the rate changes, but the lowest bracket went from 17% to 15% under the last Liberal governments. Stephen Harper briefly raised the lowest bracket to 15.5% (ostensibly to pay for the GST cut) for a year, then dropped it back to 15% where it stayed. It has not dropped further under the Harper Regime.

g


* as near as I could tell at the time, because they were terrified of Preston Manning and the Reform Party's campaign promise to do so