Captains are not allowed to make decisions anymore........

[boeingboy]

WOW!!

An ABX 767 Captain was fired for making a decision that was within company rules - but apparently dispatch didn't like that, so they made up their own rules.

Aparently - you Captains out there are no longer qualified to make routing decisions. Will the wonders of aviation never cease.........

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... -loses-job

[BEFAN5]

He obviously should have filed CVFR and not even had an alternate.....

[Panama Jack]

It would be interesting to watch developments on this one, especially if the Teamsters take this one to the FAA legal people. In the past, the FAA has signalled that it takes 91.3 very seriously as well as any attempt to "chill" that authority.

[FlyGy]

From a guy who doesn't know better....

What would the FAA have to do with an internal incident involving an Asian airline with and Asian departure and arrival? I could understand if the Captain was flying into or out of the U.S.A. or if it was an American airline.

Is it because the dispatcher was in the States?

[DeuceEng]

ABX Air is an American company, headquartered in Ohio. I assume that the aircraft are also N-registered and the pilots, at least in this case, are American.

[FlyGy]

Oh, okay. Thanks. WHen I Googled ABX I came up with this place.

http://www.abxexpress.com.my/contact.html

[old_man]

I have very little FMS time and no experience in jet liners but is it really that hard to fly to an alternate with out it being in the FMS? Honest question.

[Liquid Charlie]

While ABX procedures allow for the manual entry of waypoints, that procedure applies only to flight in domestic airspace.”

-- seems they were outside domestic airspace --

I suspect there is more to this than what we are seeing (been there done that dealing with grievances) Unless the conversation was recorded it will turn into a "he said she said" pissing contest -- I suspect there is "history" here -- usually is -- all I can say he is lucky that they are "organized" and have a collective agreement -- very little protection south of "49" without it --

[tbaylx]

I have very little FMS time and no experience in jet liners but is it really that hard to fly to an alternate with out it being in the FMS? Honest question.

It's not about not being able to get to the destination, it's about none of the approaches being in the fms database, therefore you cannot program the aircraft to fly any approach. On some aircraft that means a vfr approach only, not something that i would care to do at an unfamiliar airport at night etc.

Don't blame the guy, I wouldn't accept that either. What can be done is file a regular alternate via overflying the airport in question so you can go take a look see if the weather is good vfr, then still have enough fuel to fly to filed alternate. That requires more fuel onboard and less payload though. What this all comes down to is captains decision. The company can ask, he or she decides what is best and safest. Apparently not at this airline though, there commercial interests rule.

[Duncan Idaho]

It's not about not being able to get to the destination, it's about none of the approaches being in the fms database, therefore you cannot program the aircraft to fly any approach. On some aircraft that means a vfr approach only,

Really? I've never used an FMS either. But I thought it was a machine that was there to help you, can you not just load up an RNAV on the GPS or tune up an ILS on the nav units? FMS CAN STAY OVER THERE THEN. LOL.

Seriously though, regardless of what was going on with the fancier equipment database, even if the Captain was being overly cautious there is no and I mean NO REASON management could justify firing a Captain for not accepting an alternate due to shabby services. That is really the only reason you have a Captain! To foresee those kinds of problems and keep the airplane in a nice safe situation. Seriously even if the airport is in the FMS, and he had the wrong identifier for it and it has 8 ILS approaches, the appropriate company response would be something along the lines of "Hey it's this one Jim! LOL you goofed" and they could go on their merry way. Because someone somewhere in the world, every single day will misinterpret something, and GOD FORBID THEY ERR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION! That could cost a company forty dollars! This kind of response is a sign of rot.

Hope there's more to this story or someone is getting boycotted!

[Eric Janson]

Firstly I too suspect there is more to this story than what has been published. Difficult to comment without having all the facts.

I have very little FMS time and no experience in jet liners but is it really that hard to fly to an alternate with out it being in the FMS? Honest question.

No it is quite straightforward. Airways/Navaids/Waypoints will normally be in the database so the route is easy to construct. It may be possible to manually program Airports and runways as temporary waypoints. Worst case you can create a fix with a radial to approximate the runway centerline. Approaches can be flown with reference to the needles (Raw Data).

Waypoints/Navaids can be created in the temporary database as well. As long as track/distance is checked against the airway chart this isn't an issue. You'll lose these after every landing so it is a lot of extra work.

I have done a charter to Accra, Ghana with a 737-300 where we did this - not a big deal. You can operate quite safely without an FMS.

There may be an issue with the EGPWS terrain database where a terrain warning will be generated as it doesn't have the airport as part of the database.

[BEFAN5]

While I agree that this punishment is extreme, It also shows how reliant on technology we are. I fly everyday using my little RMI and HSI tuned to traditional navaids... you can too!

[Mach1]

Really? I've never used an FMS either. But I thought it was a machine that was there to help you, can you not just load up an RNAV on the GPS

No. You cannot load up an RNAV or GPS approach because it does not exist in the database.

or tune up an ILS on the nav units?

Yes. Absolutely, one could do a ground based instrument approach such as NDB, VOR or ILS. However, if the airport is not in the database, they might not have any approach charts for that airport on the aircraft. So, that could complicate issues if you are trying to go to your alternate and organize acquiring the approach information such as frequencies, runway orientation and length, etc.

There may be an issue with the EGPWS terrain database where a terrain warning will be generated as it doesn't have the airport as part of the database.

That's a good point as well. It would add to the workload of the situation.

It isn't about being reliant on technology as much as it is about having the foresight to avoid overloading yourself in a potential situation. I'm sure there are procedures in place to deal with all of these incidences (not in database/no charts/EGPWS) but how many of those procedures do you want to do while also navigating to an unfamiliar airport in an unfamiliar country where English is a second language to the ATC (sometimes an issue, sometimes not). Workload could grow exponentially. But since none of us were there, it's all just guess work.

[complexintentions]

It isn't about being capable of doing something, it's about managing risk. To do things manually when automation is there to relieve your workload (other than for practice, of course) is considered a poor decision and poor use of resources. (And actually forbidden by our company Ops Manual). As Eric points out, it IS possible to build your own approach, as long as you are flying it in basic modes and backing it up with traditional navaids. The main threat is simply that it probably isn't a procedure you do very often - at all - so the level of risk increases. I'm not saying that's unacceptable, but it has to be considered carefully. One cannot just equate their long-ago-used skills flying dials and needles in say a small turboprop with the highly automated glass, and high-inertia, faster approach speeds of a large airliner.

I have a feeling that a personality conflict is behind this story, but they're playing the "captain's authority" card to camouflage it.

(Sorry Mach1, I'm echoing a couple of your points, you beat me to the post!)

[Liquid Charlie]

Well all I can say is that this guy was an experienced captain -- around and flying long before FMS -- the point I think he is making here it's forbidden in his ops manual no more no less and obviously "other" captains had being ignoring it and for whatever reason he dug his heals in. Went to book and that pissed off someone (likely in sales) and they in turn wanted to send a message to the pilot group -- terror tactics is what it boils down to -- this is obviously a freight operation and the customer wanted a specific diversion point which makes operational sense for them and the company (like many others) is too fu___cking cheap to expand the FMS data base - guys complain on here about the abuse and crappy pay that they get here in Canada - well it isn't just here and it does happen even in part 121 seen and watched it many times while working next to freight carriers from south of 49 open intimidation to break rules and regulations with total disregard to safety

I'm sure in this case this issue had been festering for sometime and being a senior captain he made a stand -- management slapped him down with total disregard of the rules as set out in the company operations manual -- it's surprising how creative upper management can get when they are backed into a corner and it's cover your ass time or cover up for someone's cockup or underbidding a contract or whatever creates a money loser -- yup we usually end up on the receiving end of that sh_it

[Nark]

I know first hand how ruthless freight companies operate down here in the US. And I can echo what liquid Charlie stated.

Another factor to consider: Airborne Express has a handful of pilots on the streets, furloughed. They opened up their hiring to circumvent those on the street.
Draw your own conclusion.

[Banger]

Yes. Absolutely, one could do a ground based instrument approach such as NDB, VOR or ILS. However, if the airport is not in the database, they might not have any approach charts for that airport on the aircraft. So, that could complicate issues if you are trying to go to your alternate and organize acquiring the approach information such as frequencies, runway orientation and length, etc.

I don't fly heavies so I'm not understanding, but do you fellas not have paper charts / plates in the cockpit? How often do you hand-fly ILS / VOR approaches, or are you generally not permitted?

[Meatservo]

There's two salient points in all the above yammering that should answer your question:

1) The aircraft may not have had approach plates for approaches that are not in the database
2) The company operations manual forbids going to airports not in the database


whether or not there are actually pilots out there who don't know how to hand-fly an approach using traditional navaids, (which I refuse to believe), this pilot decided he wasn't allowed to, according to the rules.

It's actually quite common for "company culture" to accept the risks, and extra profit, to be had from pilots' willingness to do certain things that are actually specifically forbidden in the company ops manual, pushing duty times, overloading, whatever. Sometimes when you suddenly decide to toe the line after years of (yourself and others) deliberately bending the rules, you're seen as a troublemaker. When that happens, they'll just wait until some petty but justifiable reason to let you go comes along, and there you are. You have no recourse. Company:1 You:0

[Panama Jack]

It's actually quite common for "company culture" to accept the risks, and extra profit, to be had from pilots' willingness to do certain things that are actually specifically forbidden in the company ops manual, pushing duty times, overloading, whatever. Sometimes when you suddenly decide to toe the line after years of (yourself and others) deliberately bending the rules, you're seen as a troublemaker. When that happens, they'll just wait until some petty but justifiable reason to let you go comes along, and there you are. You have no recourse. Company:1 You:0

It's a mighty fine thing that does not happen in Canada!

[Mach1]

(Sorry Mach1, I'm echoing a couple of your points, you beat me to the post!)

No worries. Something about great minds...

1) The aircraft may not have had approach plates for approaches that are not in the database

Thanks for fielding that one Meatservo, that is what I meant. We don't carry plates for every airport in the world. We wouldn't be able to carry anything else if we did. Most companies only carry the airports that they normally service and their most common alternate airports. They do not carry plates for airports you can't use (runway to short, no services, can't land there for whatever political reason).

How often do you hand-fly ILS / VOR approaches, or are you generally not permitted?

That answer would vary with each and every company and it's independent rules. Where I am, ever pilot hand flies a portion of, or an entire approach every day. Why let the computer have all the fun? On certain types of approaches (CAT IIIa for example) we are not permitted to hand fly because that is what our certification says.