Speed below 10,000'

[atpl53]

For all you guys who give us instructions aloft:
I am a pilot attempting to wade my way through MANOPS. Other than Military, airshows or Minimum Safe Speed, is there any allowance for ATC to issue/allow a speed greater than 250kts below 10,000'? The question was raised on a PPC ride.

Thanks
Dan

[kevenv]

No

[photofly]

I thought not, because the limit is based on the effect of a bird-strike on the windshield; i.e. it's a strength thing rather than an ATC thing. If that's not true, at least it's a way to remember the rule.

[cgzro]

So about if your minimum safe airspeed for a loop or a slow roll is > 250kts and you are practicing below 10,000ft ?

[photofly]

speed limits are always overridden by a minimum safe airspeed that's higher

[RenegadeAV8R]

I thought not, because the limit is based on the effect of a bird-strike on the windshield; i.e. it's a strength thing rather than an ATC thing. If that's not true, at least it's a way to remember the rule.

The 250 kt IAS speed restriction when below 10,000 ft was implemented to reduce the risk of collision with all the "slower" unpressurized general aviation traffics that fly below 10,000 ft.

Flying at a slower airspeed will reduce the damage caused by a bird strike, but the rule was initially set to prevent mid-air collisions between aircraft; only.

[Banger]

No

Incorrect. Civilian ATC can issue whatever speed they need you to fly at, and further, you can request whatever speed you'd like. Whether you get a request approved depends.

"Other than Military" is a statement that is a little misleading, as military aircraft aren't able to ignore this rule all of the time.

[kevenv]

No

Incorrect. Civilian ATC can issue whatever speed they need you to fly at, and further, you can request whatever speed you'd like. Whether you get a request approved depends.

"Other than Military" is a statement that is a little misleading, as military aircraft aren't able to ignore this rule all of the time.

Ummmmmm........ being civilian ATC all these years I thought I knew how to apply speed control and what speeds I was allowed / authorized to use. Not to mention the direction that we received that clearly states we are not allowed to waive the 250kts below 10000' (This came out after TC removed the part exempting departing aircraft from the 250kts below 10000). I guess all of it was wrong. You should contact NavCanada and tell them.

Seriously though, you may want to read CARS. Nowhere does it say you may exceed the 250 kt speed if approved by ATC. I may however authorize speeds in excess of 200kts IAW 602.32(1)(b).

602.32 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall
(amended 2010/11/10; previous version)

(a) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots if the aircraft is below 10,000 feet ASL; or
(amended 2010/11/10; previous version)

(b) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots if the aircraft is below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled aerodrome unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.
(amended 2010/11/10; previous version)

(2) A person may operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed greater than the airspeeds referred to in subsection (1) if the aircraft is being operated in accordance with a special flight operations certificate - special aviation event issued pursuant to section 603.02.
(amended 2010/11/10; previous version)

(3) If the minimum safe airspeed for the flight configuration of an aircraft is greater than the airspeed referred to in subsection (1), the aircraft shall be operated at the minimum safe airspeed.
(amended 2010/11/10; previous version)

[ahramin]

No

Incorrect. Civilian ATC can issue whatever speed they need you to fly at, and further, you can request whatever speed you'd like. Whether you get a request approved depends.

"Other than Military" is a statement that is a little misleading, as military aircraft aren't able to ignore this rule all of the time.

Incorrect. ATC cannot issue any clearance that contravenes the CARs.

[Banger]

No

Incorrect. Civilian ATC can issue whatever speed they need you to fly at, and further, you can request whatever speed you'd like. Whether you get a request approved depends.

"Other than Military" is a statement that is a little misleading, as military aircraft aren't able to ignore this rule all of the time.

Incorrect. ATC cannot issue any clearance that contravenes the CARs.

What about in case of emergency? Or is the pilot expected to dictate what s/he needs?

(honest question)

[Banger]

No

Incorrect. Civilian ATC can issue whatever speed they need you to fly at, and further, you can request whatever speed you'd like. Whether you get a request approved depends.

"Other than Military" is a statement that is a little misleading, as military aircraft aren't able to ignore this rule all of the time.

Ummmmmm........ being civilian ATC all these years I thought I knew how to apply speed control and what speeds I was allowed / authorized to use. Not to mention the direction that we received that clearly states we are not allowed to waive the 250kts below 10000' (This came out after TC removed the part exempting departing aircraft from the 250kts below 10000). I guess all of it was wrong. You should contact NavCanada and tell them.

Good to know. I've been cleared "speed pilot's discretion," or whatever speed I happen to request on arrival / departure more often than not. You're the expert, and I'd honestly like to know what the explanation for that could be, if ATC cannot legally issue a speed greater than 200/250?

I'll pass on talking to NavCanada, but thanks for the advice.

[kevenv]

Good to know. I've been cleared "speed pilot's discretion," or whatever speed I happen to request on arrival / departure more often than not. You're the expert, and I'd honestly like to know what the explanation for that could be, if ATC cannot legally issue a speed greater than 200/250?

I'll pass on talking to NavCanada, but thanks for the advice.

If you ask for "speed at your discretion" what does that mean? If I approve it do you assume that you can exceed the 250 below 10000? I think in the event of an incident the subsequent board would have to sort it out.

If you specifically ask for more than 250kts below 10000 and the controller responds with "speed at your discretion" I think they are setting themselves up in the event something happens. In light of the request to violate CARS, "speed at your discretion" sounds like tacit approval to me. If you are told to maintain 250kts "or greater" below 10000, the controller is IMHO violating CARS.

If you are flying an arrival and ask for let's say 300kts, if above 10000, you still have to slow to 250 to meet the CARS requirement. If below 10000, you shouldn't get approval. On departure everyone (jets) is doing 250, I can base separation on what you are supposed to do. I assign speeds in the climb above 10000 because climb profiles vary greatly from one operator/aircraft type to another.

There are all kinds of phraseology dealing with speed. Keep your speed up, maintain best speed to final, speed at your discretion etc etc etc. They are all vague on purpose as we are not looking to be caught on tape instructing you to violate CARS. We have no idea, other than asking you, what your IAS is. We only display your GS. We do not know what the actual winds are at altitude either. If something happens we have to be prepared to defend our actions.

An emergency trumps everything and I don't care what you do, nor will I ask you what your IAS is. I'll move everything out of your way if I have to.

Hopefully I haven't muddied the waters.

Edited again and again for clarity lol.

[AuxBatOn]

Banger, refer to BGA-100. It also mentions something about AOIs speeds... In any case, I will fly 300 Kts VFR below 10K, regardless of what the CARs say (we are not bound by the CARs) and I'll try to accommodate as much as possible IFR. On departure, I will fly 350 in the climb.... I'll let them know what I do and why, but I will not let ATC fly my aircraft/formation!

[kevenv]

Banger, refer to BGA-100. It also mentions something about AOIs speeds... In any case, I will fly 300 Kts VFR below 10K, regardless of what the CARs say (we are not bound by the CARs) and I'll try to accommodate as much as possible IFR. On departure, I will fly 350 in the climb.... I'll let them know what I do and why, but I will not let ATC fly my aircraft/formation!

I'm not sure why you get so worked up and defensive about this topic. In this thread as well as the other that you jumped in on, no one said they were going to fly your plane for you. I don't recall anyone insisting that if your a/c required a speed greater than 250 kts that you were not allowed to do it. If you need the greater speed that's fine. If you are VFR I don't care what you do. You wouldn't be seeking approval from ATC in any case would you? The OP specifically asked if I could waive the 250kts below 10000'. I answered very succinctly, "No". It really is that simple. If your a/c needs faster or you are not bound by CARS, that's fine. Do what you need to do. In this case you would be telling me (as opposed to asking me) what you are going to do (IFR) and I'll plan accordingly.

[ahramin]

What about in case of emergency? Or is the pilot expected to dictate what s/he needs?

(honest question)

Exactly Banger, up to a point. Once you have performed the emergency drill/ECAM/checklist, you declare the Mayday and dictate to ATC what you need and they will do their best to get it for you. In a critical situation though you are more likely to simply tell them what you are doing and they are going to try to deal with it however they can.

[lostaviator]

I love all these what if(s). In an emergency, no one is ever going to question your speed.

CBC headline "Pilot saves 145 lives landing airplane with throttles stuck at max, TC fines $10,000 for speed violation"

[2550]

I just want to know what airplane he did his PPL ride in!?!?