getting a flying job these days !

[ogc]

I know one thing about this argument.

If there were no pilots to work the ground jobs...

There would be a lot companies who would be completely screwed trying to staff their operation.

[X-Savior]

[Cat Driver]

There should be a progression in one's career, like in any other career. Your "big break" should be into a Navajo, not a Boeing.

Hmmm....

......it sure was not that way in Europe where I spent a lot of my last fifteen or so years in the Industry.

In fact I don't remember ever seeing a commercially operated Navajo there....there were hundreds of Boeing's though.

Like Doc I never worked the ramp....my first real job flying was Ag flying in Southern Ont....I had 252 hours T.T. when they hired and trained me.

Oh...I have lots of DC3 time like Doc does and like Doc I never drove a fork lift ...they don't have wings.

[Doc]

Doc, I guess you mis-understood my statement. I am just saying you CAN tell the people who have worked the ramp. It DOES make a better pilot out of you (not saying be there for many years but 1 year is good to get a taste of all seasons).
:

Again I call Bull Sh&t! HOW would it "make a better pilot out of you......" Why the F would ANYBODY need 1 YEAR on a ramp??? To "taste" the seasons? Get real!
Gee, I can fly just fine, thank you. So can many who have never worked on a ramp. If you like ramps so much, fill your boots.

[Doc]

Oh...I have lots of DC3 time like Doc does and like Doc I never drove a fork lift ...they don't have wings.

In your case, the fork lift wasn't invented yet!

[Lost Lake]

Good one Doc, but I t think I be careful on the old comments. I'm like you, I guess I shouldn't be flying. Started out with some training on a 180, got hire to fly a 185. I have fo's beside me who are good and not so good. I don't think working the ramp gives you good pilot making or flying skills! You got it or you don't.

[X-Savior]

[co-joe]

Working the ramp is like plumbing. You can learn pretty
much all you need to know in one day.

If you're still learning lots of new stuff after a year on
the ramp, I'm afraid there's not much hope for you.

I think working as a line boy is great experience for a
high school student that knows nothing about aviation
but is saving money to get his pilot licence.

You mean:

Shit travels downhill, pay day is on friday, and don't lick your fingers?

[Doc]

Good one Doc, but I t think I be careful on the old comments. I'm like you, I guess I shouldn't be flying. Started out with some training on a 180, got hire to fly a 185. I have fo's beside me who are good and not so good. I don't think working the ramp gives you good pilot making or flying skills! You got it or you don't.

This is very possible, and we may have just been lucky that the people who did come from the ramp all were determined to be successful.

Now I am going to exit from this conversation as Doc, you seem to prefer to rage post instead of having a conversation.... possibly some netiquet might be suggested.

We have all been there and dealt with the reality of the industry. I am being out right honest but the best way to describe the Aviation Industry is that it is a old broken down pickup truck stuck in a big pothole. There is a LOT of issues and quite honestly I do not foresee the problems being resolved. By time everyone is in a position of any kind of power to be able to make changes they are either bound to what the higher ups deem to be how to operate or you have a big enough chip on your shoulder from how things were for you that it becomes how you run things. It is the honest truth.

In Aviation you will end up with one shitty job after another getting paid far less then you should and putting up with endless avalanches of crap for most of your career. If you don't agree with this then you are living in denial. That is life the the old pickup truck!

I've read your post three times. Other than claiming I have a "chip on my shoulder...." I have NO idea what you're saying??? You did mention a pickup truck stuck in a big pot hole? Your last paragraph is complete drivel. Again, who exactly is living the life of the old pickup truck? I have NO idea of what you speak. Something about one shitty job after another? If you don't work on a ramp? Consider yourself on "ignore" Go flip burgers.

[X-Savior]

[iflyforpie]

I never did get the whole 'ramp' thing other than just a supply of cheap slave labour. I too never worked ramp.... it was (and is) called just doing what needs to be done whether you are the new guy or the owner. At every operation there is something a little different that takes all of a week to figure out. At companies like mine, all of us do our part to help whoever needs to fly, fly. Herc straps? C'mon, I taught my wife how to use a Herc strap in 30 seconds so she secure stuff in the back of the truck.

[DanWEC]

I've made my opinions on the ridiculous tangent that entry level pilots undergo well known, but some aspects of learning associated (key word) skills do make perfect sense in a northern bush environment, but that isn't 100% of aviation... Though its a pretty awesome part.
Outside of that, cheap exploitation of labour is beyond atrocious. How is 2 years at a terminal ticket counter grooming you for the pilot job?? (Seen this first hand!).
Man.... I clench as I'm expecting to get vilified for this opinion, but I know some of the "pay your dues in a completely unrelated way" perspective is perpetuated from people that had to do unrelated hard labour to get their positions. I base this on an interview I had with a very large unkept guy behind a desk who said I'd be working "100" hour weeks mowing his lawn and washing his truck because that's what he had to do when he started, so everyone else has to as well. He didn't seem like a happy person. I made no attempt to pursue the position, even though I'm generally used to a 60 hour work week. I'll never forget that encounter, and I reflect on it whenever I think of how we can more effectively entrench the value of a good days work in entry level. I believe in paying it forward, not backwards.

[Slats]

Sweet-this debate again!

Mmmm...on this particular go 'round, some of the ironing is delicious.

[Mr.Blonde]

I dont' have much experience in aviation industry and I can barely pull a loop with a citabria ! but I have some in management and market study, here's how I am starting to see the whole thing :

I have a lot of respect for the guys who started their careers on the ramp and one day their skills acquired along the way will be usefull in their personal life or on the job and I agree that few times (1-3months) on the ramp for cargo or bush pilot is a part of the training. If someone can't operate a forklift to a level required by his pilot duties, that is not something related to the ramp way ! Just saying : My sister learned how to operate a forklift at 12-years old... And if a guy sat in the room doing his "paperwork" while everyone on the ramp and around is rushing to get the job done, it is a lack of team work and leadership from his part and again that's nothing to do if he had paid his dues on the ramp or not.

There's no entry barrier in this industry, everyone with 50 000$ can get the CPL/Multi/IFR and the school generate an oversupply of unskilled 200hrs pilot, there's no selection process or minimum requirement like most of others profession. The market set a kind of his own selection process like the ramp to separate which one is skilled and which one is not. Having more restrictive entry barrier would lead to have pilot who can operate a forklift, if it needed to be, and pilot with teamwork skills and work ethic.

This generate a bigger problem, to be competitive, a corporation need to be efficient and cost effective. Having an oversupply of pilot give a company cheap and overskilled staff to put eveywhere. It's kind of free money for the company, but relying on this, company start to be lazy when it's time to think outside the box, and it's proved by many case study. Each time this company need to be more competitive, they always look at the same place to cut the cost and to be more effective, on the staff side where the easy money is, wage reduction, training bond, lack in training,poor working condition, etc. And it may lead to create an unsafe environment that can contribute to an accident like the CYQB AEROPRO accident.

I would like flying for a living for many reasons, but do I want to spend 2-years on the ramp running after a carrot, and when it will be my turn, the chief pilot grand cousin wife side will get his chance instead of me... maybe not. Is this mean that I am not a professionnal, useless and not ready to put the effort for a company...? Which one will be the best long-term investment for a company, the guys who shut his mouth doing the same thing as everyone else because that's the way it is or the guy ready to throw away 50k$ and his passion because he stand his ground and his conviction that a professionnal pilot should start to learn as a pilot...

More and more as I see the "I eat my shitload you must eat yours" and "I want a bigger piece of cake than yours" attitude in this industry, I look to put my effort somewhere else,made the money, expat in thailand, buying a supercub, a Ducati streetfighter 848 and chasing girls...

[Slats]

Beat the Colonel to it!

[Doc]

The trick to getting a job in aviation is really no secret.
Right place, right time, is number ONE
Know somebody, is number TWO
Look good in a skirt, is number THREE
Are there any questions?
Thought not.

[traveller123]

totally right doc

I know guys who started on a twin, IFR and single pilot. Why? Because they where at the right place at the right time...

And I forgot, THEY'RE STILL ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!

[cdnpilot77]

The trick to getting a job in aviation is really no secret.
Right place, right time, is number ONE
Know somebody, is number TWO
Look good in a skirt, is number THREE
Are there any questions?
Thought not.

Exactly true...BMC showed up at the interview for his current job in which he was in the righ place/right time, knew the boss personally and looked great in a skirt. They took his profile pic and sent it to me. Here it is! Congrats BMC!

[atmosphere]

This whole thing of having to work the ramp before you can fly an airplane is garbage. You don't see doctors cleaning toilets at the hospital for 1-2 years before getting to treat a patient. You don't see lawyers sitting at a desk taking lunch orders, answering phones and moping the office floor before getting to work on cases. So there is no reason why a trained professional pilot should be doing it either. Working on the ramp might be good way to learn the ins and outs of this industry and the specifics of a certain company, but a pilot spends thousands of dollars to learn how to fly an airplane, not to learn how to roll drums or clean a hangar floor. As another poster mentioned, a ramp job is great for someone who is still training and becoming a pilot. Once you're a licensed pilot you should be working as a pilot. A new, low time pilot should start from the bottom of the ladder (like in any other industry), on a small airplane, and as he/she gains experience they can move up the ladder to bigger and faster airplanes. That being said, with the proper training, a new, low time pilot can easily start out F/O on a jet. It's being done all around the world and it seems to work well, so why not in Canada.

[petey]

Can't compare pilots to doctors and lawyers. The amount of education we get compared to those professions simply isn't close. I got my CPL in 18 months. Also the money we spend on our education is substantially less than those two.

[Doc]

Can't compare pilots to doctors and lawyers. The amount of education we get compared to those professions simply isn't close. I got my CPL in 18 months. Also the money we spend on our education is substantially less than those two.

So, would that mean you think you should be cleaning hangar floors? Or flipping burgers. The point IS other lines of work involve training folks to do the job they were trained to do. Lets pick mortician. The mortician doesn't have to spend two years in the parking lot before he's allowed to handle bodies. How abut welder. I'm more comfortable with welder as well.......he welds. Are you still confused?

[iflyforpie]

Okay, but you don't see AMEs working ramp either. Yes, there is a certain amount of cleaning and mundane tasks and 'ramp duty' but never exclusively and for low pay and long hours. I was twisting wrenches on two different types of transport category aircraft and getting logbook signoffs within a week of getting my first AME job.

[petey]

Never was confused Doc, but if you aren't confused by basic economics you would understand the simple principles of supply and demand. The bottom line is in our current condition there is more supply than there is demand for 200 hour pilots. I'm not saying one should have to work the ramp, however; if there aren't any flying jobs in the industry it's a great way to get your foot in the door. The unfortunate thing is the employers that pay low wages to work the ramp (not every operator does). What you need to understand is that the majority of the young guys/gals that are working the ramp are making equal to or more than they ever have in their lives. Considering you can make more working the ramp than being a flight instructor it doesn't seem like a bad way to break into the industry.

[Cat Driver]

The comparison between a newly licensed commercial pilot and a Doctor or Lawyer is absurd.

A closer comparison would be comparing a new pilot and a new truck driver.

Do truck drivers have to work as janitors or wash trucks to get a job?

Companies indenture new pilots as near slave labor for one simple reason.......pilots submit to it because they will do anything for the chance to fly.

[petey]

Offer to drive for a company on an internship/probationary status. Many times a CDL trucking job will be more likely to a driver without experience if they agree to do a probation period, possibly without pay. Granted, working without pay is never ideal, but it can be what gets you in good with an employer. Once they see that you are a good CDL driver and an accountable employee, they may wish to offer you a more permanent, paying position.

Read more at http://www.infobarrel.com/How_to_Get_Tr ... S62Jbbw.99

I'm going to the bar.