Attitudes that lead to accidents

[tiggermoth]

One difference is those planes don't have an unlatched door banging against the side of them.

Thanks Beef....at least someone know wtf I am talking about Pretty Sure the good Colonel does too, he is just being funny today

But yes, I am refering to cowl access doors left open, stuff like that.

[Beefitarian]

The ladder sounds like a good one. You should be taking pictures and put these in a book. I'd buy one. Might have to censor registrations and blur their faces.

[tiggermoth]

The ladder sounds like a good one. You should be taking pictures and put these in a book. I'd buy one. Might have to censor registrations and blur their faces.

I wish I had pictures of the ladder incident. I do have some pictures somewhere of an Bell 407 that ingested a wool blanket through the top cowl where the main rotor mast comes out. It ingested it because 2, not just one, but 2 commercial pilots decided that it would be wise to wrap the blanket around the mast to help keep the heat in the transmission area overnight during the winter. One morning, they both forgot to remove it with the rest of the winter covers and took off. About half a mile is how far they got before all kinds of bells, whistles and lights came on in the cockpit.

When we got there, the helicopter was in the middle of a road and the snow all around it was the same orange colour as the turbine oil used in both the tranny and engine. The blanket had fallen down, gotten wrapped around the main driveshaft and started to spin. There was bits of wool fuzz everywhere!! Some of the loose ends of the blanket that were being spun by the driveshaft acted like a saw and cut through the cowlings, oil lines had been ripped clean out of the transmission case, wire bundles ripped and shredded what a mess. One particular wire bundle was caught, and the cannon plug was ripped out of the tranny, and the bundle and plug were flung backwards right through the inlet cowl, which made a nice hole for the engine to suck in a whole bunch of that wool fuzz.

I will have to see if I can find those old photos and see about scanning them. This was back in about January or February 2002, and I had my old film camera then.

[Doc]

Attitudes that lead to accidents?
Every Keystone pilot I've spoken to (granted, I haven't spoken to them all) has an attitude the scares the crap out of me. From the pilot who told us the crash at North Spirit Lake was "just part of getting the job done...." (I don't make this shit up, folks) to the pilot who told us he kept his Navajo in ice "to see what it would do, with a load...." with passengers, to the pilot we met in YPM one afternoon, who after spending 15 minutes sweeping under his props, proceeded to do a power check before taxiing....how DO they find these guys?

Before you start tossing insults at me, each of these conversations were witnessed.......

[Rookie50]

Here is a big issue I have heard about, that at is an organizational attitude that can lead to accidents. Never heard this brought up.

Actually I wonder how many (of these) accidents have actually happened out of flight schools that rent for longer journeys, but of course are attributable to other direct factors.

You see, most flight schools have some sort of a daily hourly minimum, like eg. 5 hours of Hobbs time to take the plane for all day or overnight. Plane is booked for 2 - 3 days, you need to get it back at the agreed time, and there in where the problem lies. Its a contract in effect.

What I believe; is the broadcast focus on safety first at some of these outfits is trumped by the all - important mighty dollar, and pressure is applyed to pilots to return the AC through WX that is clearly unsafe, or certainly unsafe for the (often inexperienced) level of the pilot. Then the weather call becomes no longer the pilots decision, or this is attempted anyway. Although I guess from what I have read, that just makes some schools no better than some commercial operators out there. Thoughts? I'm not quoting names, don't think its relevant. Don't suppose anyone is that shocked.......

[Rookie50]

Oh; I forgot. Flame away! --- those that profess shock an innocent school would ever do this. Oughttaa be good......

[Old Dog Flying]

Then there is the case of the instructor getting into a C172 after his student did the walk around..as I was per-flighting the Husky. The only problem was that there was a 5 gallon paint can filled with cement still attached to the tail.

After both the student and instructor tried with ever increasing amounts of power to make the bird move, I went over , rapped on the side and gave the expert the kill sign,,which he did not understand..then I pointed to the tail. Our hero finally got the picture, shut down, untied the rope and gave me a dirty look.

As if it was my fault. He was a low time instructor with a new student who really did not get his moneies worth durung his first lesson. Even instructors have bad-ass attitudes.

[cgzro]

What I believe; is the broadcast focus on safety first at some of these outfits is trumped by the all - important mighty dollar, and pressure is applyed to pilots to return the AC through WX that is clearly unsafe, or certainly unsafe for the (often inexperienced) level of the pilot. Then the weather call becomes no longer the pilots decision, or this is attempted anyway.

While that is true , the cost of renting creates pressure to return the plane, however that kind of pressure is always present in any kinds of travel by GA and pilots simply have to understand that it can be very expensive travelling by light aircraft if you get stuck by weather or have a mechanical issue. Its not uncommon for me to get stuck on a Sunday somewhere and may not be back at work on the Monday .. hell once I got stuck for 4 days. Well of course I had to pay to hanger the plane for 4 nights, had to get a hotel and missed 4 days of work. There was no FTU involved but still it was very expensive and there was great pressure to get home.

[Colonel Sanders]

Time to spare, go by air.

Heck, most airline flights I take are at least a bit
screwed up - delayed due to wx, mtce, crew - or
cancelled outright. That hoses the connecting
flight.

You have to get a little older and honestly tell
yourself that it's not worth dying to try to get
home (or to work) on time.

Here's one of the best pilots in the world, and
how did he go out?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Sco ... _reactions

[Rookie50]

The issue to me is not (my) personal schedule; it's external pressure applied to inexperienced pilots to return the airplane.

"Hey; I am the CFI, with much more experience I will make the weather call; get going" type of thing ... if not quite so direct. Me; I would tell them to chill out and wait if the WX doesn't cut it. Dangerous practice in my book.

[stallfortime]

... a refusal to appreciate TIME; that invisible, all permeating player that gets very jealous when ignored. Not having enuff time to do this or that bankrupts you later on. Just take the time to do it right, so your bank account gives you room to burn...

[Shiny Side Up]

Time to spare, go by air.

Heck, most airline flights I take are at least a bit
screwed up - delayed due to wx, mtce, crew - or
cancelled outright. That hoses the connecting
flight.

Indeed. Its really amazing when one concieves of all of what is involved that any airplane is one time to its destination, ever. I always find it funny when going anywhere on an airliner that people get angry when there's a mechanical delay or a weather one. What, you wanted them to fly into that that thunderstorm? Be thankful that all we we delayed was 30 minutes for that mechanical issue.

You have to get a little older and honestly tell
yourself that it's not worth dying to try to get
home (or to work) on time.

There are very few things in this world worth dying over. Off hand, I can't think of any. You only got one kick at the can after all. Its too bad more people don't figure that out sooner or ever. Probably have a lot less problems with airplanes.

edit: On the theme, this attitude towards got to get there:

The Dyersburg, Tennessee airfield manager suggested that they stay the night after advising of high winds and inclement weather, and even offered them free rooms and meals, but Hughes responded, "I've already come this far. We'll be there before you know it."

...killed Patsy Cline. You really got to feel you got to get there to turn down free stuff at an airport, hell someone is probably really trying to save your ass if they offer you some. Incidentally that same attitude killed Jim Reeves a year later, curiously trained by the same instructor who trained Patsy Cline's pilot.

[CFR]

The issue to me is not (my) personal schedule; it's external pressure applied to inexperienced pilots to return the airplane.

"Hey; I am the CFI, with much more experience I will make the weather call; get going" type of thing ... if not quite so direct. Me; I would tell them to chill out and wait if the WX doesn't cut it. Dangerous practice in my book.

The dangerous practice you speak of is letting anyone make that kind of decision for you in any circumstance (renting, your own A/C or as an employee).

First off, the place I used to rent from never put pressure on students or renters to return a plane in marginal weather, never! If anything they encouraged the opposite. So not all outfits are the same. In fact of the three I have used over time, none put pressure on.

Secondly PIC means PIC, the excuse that "the CFI told me to launch" is bogus and anyone who uses it, is not a true PIC. When renting the call is always yours to make. Even if you go based on pressure from the CFI it is a decision that YOU made not the CFI. You could always ask the CFI to put his call in writing, with the rationale behind it, and fax it to you (copy to TC), chances are the tune would change.

Third, the few places I rent from do not have a written weather policy (bad practice if it encourges someone to fly and they die) but they often have an idle time fee (where I rent min 3 hours per day - often waived if you are a high time renter). If I was weathered in using a rental outfit such as you describe and they tried to charge me I would refuse to pay (knowing I would never rent there again) and let them take me to small claims. If they did (unlikely) somehow the media would find out and we all know how they LOVE terror in the sky stories!

Fourth - any outfit that encourages folks to fly in weather they are not comfortable with, probably has other sketchy practices going on that should make you think twice about renting there.

At the end of the day you (and your pax) are the only ones who have to live (or otherwise) by the decisions you make.

[fche]

If I was weathered in using a rental outfit such as you describe and they tried to charge me I would refuse to pay (knowing I would never rent there again) and let them take me to small claims. If they did (unlikely) somehow the media would find out and we all know how they LOVE terror in the sky stories!

I fully agree with the other parts of what you wrote, but not this one. If the (idle-time/minimum-hours) policy was part of the rental agreement, you should pay up.

[schmoo]

As a newly licensed PPL who depends upon the availablility of planes for rental, I fully understand and appreciate the need for a billable hours policy of some kind. Can't count the number of times the online reservation system shows that no planes are available yet when I show up at the airport, half of them are on the ramp when I leave and still there when I get back.

At least the policy makes renters re-think their reservations and either pay for the plane or leave it on the ramp for someone else ( would be nice if they cancelled their reservation as well ). I can only speculate that without such a policy, renters would be more willing to take the plane up for an hour, spend the day at the beach while the plane sits idle at some airport, and then fly home at sunset. Net result, plane gone all day for a mere 2 billable hours. That's pretty hard on a guy like me who depends upon a club's dozen-or-so planes.

[CFR]

If I was weathered in using a rental outfit such as you describe and they tried to charge me I would refuse to pay (knowing I would never rent there again) and let them take me to small claims. If they did (unlikely) somehow the media would find out and we all know how they LOVE terror in the sky stories!

I fully agree with the other parts of what you wrote, but not this one. If the (idle-time/minimum-hours) policy was part of the rental agreement, you should pay up.

I'm not talking idle time, I agree that is something you pay. If you plan to go to the beach for the day, be prepared to pay. Although again, where I rent their fleet is pretty large with numerious types. Not all are used to the same extent and they adjust accordingly. For example, for a while I was the one of the few qualified to fly tail wheel so I got to use the Citabria pretty much whenever I wanted for as long as I wanted. Once more people got the qual (me and my big mouth telling everyone how much fun it was!!) it became less available and I had to consider idle time in my rental. But weather is another issue especially if you are in the local area but just can't get back. If the plane would not be flying anyway from its home base, why would I be charged? As an example I returned one night with my instructor finishing my DA40 checkout. We flew IFR into a local major airport to clear customs and were then weathered in. We left the A/C there (I paid for one day parking) and I returned the next day and sat for 4 hours waiting for the fog to lift enough to fly the 15 mins to the A/C's home base. I was only charged the 15 minutes. I would have been really pissed if I had been charged 4 hours when no flying was taking place.

[CFR]

As a newly licensed PPL who depends upon the availablility of planes for rental, I fully understand and appreciate the need for a billable hours policy of some kind. Can't count the number of times the online reservation system shows that no planes are available yet when I show up at the airport, half of them are on the ramp when I leave and still there when I get back.

At least the policy makes renters re-think their reservations and either pay for the plane or leave it on the ramp for someone else ( would be nice if they cancelled their reservation as well ). I can only speculate that without such a policy, renters would be more willing to take the plane up for an hour, spend the day at the beach while the plane sits idle at some airport, and then fly home at sunset. Net result, plane gone all day for a mere 2 billable hours. That's pretty hard on a guy like me who depends upon a club's dozen-or-so planes.

Lots of places have a short notice cancellation fee, again something I agree with (it usually only gets applied after repeat offences). Other fees may apply as well (leaving the master on, not closing a flight plan, etc). Many outfits now have on line booking services which helps maximize usage. On more than one occasion if nothing was available when I wanted it, I would keep checking and often find one became available on short notice and I could grab it.