Seniority System ...

[Localizer]

I thought i'd hit a touchy subject and get a prospective on what people are thinking in regards to the seniority system and changes to retirement in Canadian aviation. I think most would agree that the seniority system and a lack of retirement age don't mix considering seniority only works when there is a reasonable exit point on the map. IMO the system is broken and i'll use the buzz word here .. with the "new reality" maybe we need a new system of doing business. I'll consider myself lucky as the seniority system benefits me, but I do have a conscience and don't believe the system to be fair for everyone after you factor in the new rules.

I don't claim to know the answers or how to fix such a complex problem, all I do know is that the present system is broken and the brainstorming needs to begin.

Let's keep it civil.

[Norwegianwood]

I thought i'd hit a touchy subject and get a prospective on what people are thinking in regards to the seniority system and changes to retirement in Canadian aviation. I think most would agree that the seniority system and a lack of retirement age don't mix considering seniority only works when there is a reasonable exit point on the map. IMO the system is broken and i'll use the buzz word here .. with the "new reality" maybe we need a new system of doing business. I'll consider myself lucky as the seniority system benefits me, but I do have a conscience and don't believe the system to be fair for everyone after you factor in the new rules.

I don't claim to know the answers or how to fix such a complex problem, all I do know is that the present system is broken and the brainstorming needs to begin.

Let's keep it civil.

Not broken at all! The goalposts have been moved back 5 yards (read years), that's all. Same as before, just older wiser and more experienced people at the helm.
Now what's the fuss about?
NW

[126.75]

I wonder though with the LCC starting up and the "socialized" bidding system if there will be a push in 5 years or so to adopt the same at mainline. Seniority benefits the top 10% of block holders and 10% of reserve holders. Interesting to see what will happen in the next little while.

[Localizer]

Not broken at all! The goalposts have been moved back 5 yards (read years), that's all. Same as before, just older wiser and more experienced people at the helm.
Now what's the fuss about?
NW

The left seat has been set back 5 yrs, but I think the idea of seniority as a whole has been set further then 5 yrs. There is more to life then the left seat .. holidays, vacation times, weekends off etc .. the lifestyle side of the business is hardest effected when #1 Capt sides into the right seat as #1 FO till age 71.

[ahramin]

Localizer I've always been quite vocal about how the seniority system is a mistake. A very senior Jazz Captain once said to me "seniority only sucks when you don't have any" but I don't agree. Even if I was sitting at the top of the seniority list I wouldn't be happy about taking advantage of that position in order to shaft everyone under me.

Unfortunately when it comes to promotions or equipment bids I don't see any way better than seniority for doing it equitably. We know that in every airline in the world, if you leave promotions up to management to decide you're going to get the least competent pilots being upgraded due to nepotism.

I think Westjet has already pointed the way to a workable and fair system. Upgrades are based on seniority, schedules are not. In other words upgrades are not subject to mismanagement, but everyone works.

[teacher]

It helps solve the pension problem doesn't it? Less people drawing a pension and for less time since studies have proven that past a certain age the longer you work the less you live. Especially in this business of back of the clock work, poor physical activity and diet among many other issues.

That aside not having benefits or any disability insurance negates that aspect of cost but lifestyle will definitely be affected by the new senior FOs. Having said that they will be leaving the left seat for the right leaving a captain seat open. In all honesty I'm not sure you'll be seeing guys staying THAT long or being able to hold a cat 1 until 71. I believe the "problem" has been a little over blown.

One question I do have though for you AC folks. Do the pension rule changes mean you'll have to work longer now to make the same benefits?

[nightguy]

Older, wiser more experienced at the helm. Oh yeah and seems some can only look as far as themselves. 60 was the deal all along funny how hard it is to walk away from that kind of compensation and schedule.

For the record I got no problem with working past 60. Just don't screw the generations behind you. It's hard to believe but some us read the back of the old licences and planned to retire at 60 funded and ready.

[Norwegianwood]

Older, wiser more experienced at the helm. Oh yeah and seems some can only look as far as themselves. 60 was the deal all along funny how hard it is to walk away from that kind of compensation and schedule.

For the record I got no problem with working past 60. Just don't screw the generations behind you. It's hard to believe but some us read the back of the old licences and planned to retire at 60 funded and ready.

Really! Nice for you that you get the opportunity, thanks to all the work by the generations ahead of you to allow you to "carry on".
So it's now OK for you to "screw the generations behind you"

How do you spell hypocritical!!!!!

NW

[RB211]

...Unfortunately when it comes to promotions or equipment bids I don't see any way better than seniority for doing it equitably. We know that in every airline in the world, if you leave promotions up to management to decide you're going to get the least competent pilots being upgraded due to nepotism.
...

You mean as opposed to getting upgraded simply because your number comes up?

You are certain 'every airline in the world' would upgrade in the manner you state? Based on what?

[ahramin]

RB211, I'm not aware of any airline that upgrades simply when your number comes up. Every one I have seen have an evaluation, training, PPC, line indoc, and route check before anyone gets upgraded. Seniority number determines whose turn it is to go give that process a try if they so desire.

As for being certain about every airline in the world, I'm not. If you know of one that upgrades airline captains based on who is actually best for the job, let me know so I can send them my resume.

[vic777]

Even if I was sitting at the top of the seniority list I wouldn't be happy about taking advantage of that position in order to shaft everyone under me.

This is funny

As for being certain about every airline in the world, I'm not. If you know of one that upgrades airline captains based on who is actually best for the job, let me know so I can send them my resume.

This is funnier.

(sorry ahramin ... just bored ... pulling your chain ... no offence)

[ogopogo]

Older, wiser more experienced at the helm. Oh yeah and seems some can only look as far as themselves. 60 was the deal all along funny how hard it is to walk away from that kind of compensation and schedule.

For the record I got no problem with working past 60. Just don't screw the generations behind you. It's hard to believe but some us read the back of the old licences and planned to retire at 60 funded and ready.

Really! Nice for you that you get the opportunity, thanks to all the work by the generations ahead of you to allow you to "carry on".
So it's now OK for you to "screw the generations behind you"

How do you spell hypocritical!!!!!

NW

Hippocritical, actually.

[Norwegianwood]

How do you spell hypocritical!!!!!

NW

Hippocritical, actually.[/quote]


— n
a person who pretends to be what he is not

[C13: from Old French ipocrite, via Late Latin, from Greek hupokritēs one who plays a part, from hupokrinein to feign, from krinein to judge]

hypo'critical

— adj

hypo'critically

— adv

[nightguy]

Never saw that coming. I forgot how some of you feel you provided this career for us. For the record I got here myself, did everything myself, qualified myself and most of all earned it myself. That shitty attitude that you have that makes you feel like you are doing the rest if of such a service is the reason we will all continue to fail. All that had come out of work past 60 is men and women being forced to work to 65. People that did not want to. So I guess you were able to provide us all with something. Thanks I guess.

Just a side thought. Seeing as you have done so much for all of us would you maybe consider doing a little more? Just so we all can move on in life... You can fly past 60 and the younger guys can move along .... Drop to the bottom of the seniority list... Hell even get a LOA so you won't have to work 16 days a month.... But help us all a little more and let the industry move on as it did for you. Fair is fair right.

[Norwegianwood]

Never saw that coming. I forgot how some of you feel you provided this career for us. For the record I got here myself, did everything myself, qualified myself and most of all earned it myself.

Ah! the old sense of entitlement EH!

Maybe you are the first and only one to have done it and maybe you should shoot to the top of the list and be # 1 on the "triple".........

How long have you been here anyway????

Yawn, night night!

[nightguy]

See that's just it. You think I want something I have not earned. All I or (we) want is the ability to move up through the ranks like everyone before us. NW you might be totally right here and I might be out to lunch. But I just don't get why you would want to change the game at the end. Please tell the aviation community what the real deal is here.

Oh yeah and the entitlement your talking about. Does that apply the the men and women that join AC & WJ that served this county in the military? Does does it apply to men and women that flew in the arctic for years on end? Does it apply to those who join from a corporate job? How about another airline. Or does it just apply to those of us who disagree with you?

[43S/172E]

Night guy believe it or not there are some of us who did things the honourable way. If there was perceived wrong in the union it was brought forward, merits were discussed, and then the membership voted on it. We did not adulterate ourselves by going outside our collective being to resort to legal challenges to right a perceived wrong.

There were times when this could have been addressed by those who were greatest advocates for this change but were found wanting in moral fibre because of their apparent self interest at the time would have kept them "below the salt" in the seniority system. One such advocate who made a name for himself in the media last year bragged on how he went after the late Captain Ross Stevenson (who was the first to challenge the retirement issue in court) on a late night phone call to his home who complained on how his greed was holding junior pilots back. Fast forward a couple of decades and this person has had a miraculous "conversion on the road to Damascus," Vis a Vis seniority in which would I would humbly suggest if you looked up charlatan in the dictionary of life you would find his picture.

We all had our personal stories in how we got here some through the military and those who came up through the civilian side of aviation.

Years passed we advanced through expansion (yes Virginia there was expansion) attrition through death, competency issues and retirement. For whatever the reason the yard sticks have been moved and what was considered normal for an exit has been modified to where it is today.

Hold on to what is meaningful be it your family, friends because everything else can be transitory and above all stay healthy.

Use your career to pursue your interests as that is what is important in life not engaging in conversations with those who are enthused by vulgar self interest for their very essence is one-dimensional in disposition.

When my time came to exit and yes I had a privileged career I passed that torch to the younger generation secure in my belief as others did so before me I would do the same.

Enjoy your career yes it has changed but even when we are given lemons lemon aide is a good thing too.

[nightguy]

Cheers to you sir!

[yycflyguy]

I like pilots less and less every day.

[Rockie]

Me too. We got crushed under the boot heels of the government/corporate juggernaut and we still can't stop blaming each other. Beating us is child's play when we do 95% of the work ourselves.

[Norwegianwood]

But I just don't get why you would want to change the game at the end. Please tell the aviation community what the real deal is here. Or does it just apply to those of us who disagree with you?

No personal deal here at all NG!

The mandatory retirement age in Canada was changed by, not me, not a bunch of disgruntled pilots, and certainly not by the union......
But by an act of Parliament which comes into force in December! After that everybody gets a chance to "stay on" and the waters of how they stay on are still very muddied and some of the reading I have been doing it will certainly come to the courts for clarification!
Here's a little read for you to see which provinces and the whole country deal with the way we retire going forward.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/200 ... er523.html

The aviation crowd will not and cannot be singled out as a special group because of what went on in the past.
Best of luck with your career and for heavens sake look after yourself.

NW

[RFN]

We are about to go through the same convulsions at Jazz since I am pretty sure as of 1 Dec guys here don't have to retire at 65 anymore either.

It bears mentioning that while the Supreme Court ruled that the Charter prohibits the withdrawl of an offer of employment at age 65, the Charter does NOT recognize seniority.

Seniority as well all know well is a matter of luck more than anything. How many of us can truly say we were hired (to whatever company and at whatever time) because we were "just that awesome"? It has far more to do with which companies survived, and who got hired when they were younger. Getting old is not a skill.

My point is that if no one has a RIGHT to seniority, then fill your boots and keep on flying till your loss of medical becomes a long term disability issue for the company at age 85 and NEVER retire if you want, but don't make life more difficult on those "below" you while you do it.

[vic777]

Maybe the Union can make some behind closed doors deal with the Company, but the Pilot group typically gets royally screwed whenever they do this. Trouble is, the Union leaders are all close to Sixty. And in Ten years the "Over Sixty" membership will be a large voting block. This War is over.

[TheStig]

The pay scales will flatten in the future over successive negotiations, but not to 'get even' with the senior members, but because it will only make sense to do so for the membership. With pilots on Defined Benefit Pension plans it was logical to end-load the career earnings to maximize a pilots best 60 months earnings. With all new pilots being hired into a DC plan there will be an ever increasing voting block focused on earning more money earlier in their careers. Defined Contribution Pension plans are most useful when the plan member makes large contributions decades before retirement. The current pay scale set up will change as the percentage of pilots on each pension plan swings over the next decade. Pilots hired right now will miss out the most as they wont be able to contribute much for the next few years to their pension. The next biggest losers will be those on the DB plan who retire 60 months or more after the pay scales are flattened. The big winners, of coarse, are the senior pilots today who will be able to have their cake (high paying final years of service) and eat it too (generous pensions).

[vic777]

Actually having a system where all Ten Year Captains etc. make exactly the same pay regardless of type would make excellent sense. Money is worth sooo much more the sooner you get it. The UNION could have used the vast windfall gains that the company is getting because of FlyPast60 to make this possible. But the UNION leaders were too greedy trying to feather their own nest, (which they were successful in doing, by the way).