Eagle Jet International / Pay to Fly

[KK7]

I find it ridiculous that so many pilots are against this. What's the alternative for fresh pilots in Canada ?

Face the possibility that there might not be enough pilot jobs out there to fulfill the demand.

Fly small(er) planes for 10 years building hours. Don't get me wrong, I think that is great experience, if pilots were fairly compensated.

What you're saying does not compute. Are you saying that paying to work is more fair than being paid anything at all?

That is not the case though. Pilots are making crap money for those ten years working long, hard hours, even working the ramp for a while before they actually get to fly.

Actually I made more money instructing while at University than most of my fellow classmates working menial part time jobs. Then once I started working full time I made over $50K after my first year.

Meanwhile, guys in Korea and Europe are jumping straight into jets after getting their CPL. Pilots in the old days didn't have to go through this shit either. That doesn't sound very fair to me. So, maybe we have to do whatever it takes to even out the playing field. Besides, I am not getting any money from parents or bank loans.

What I've highlighted in your text is exactly where the problem began in this industry. Get a job by doing whatever it takes. Your money is just lubricating the slippery slope we're on.

It is my own hard earned money.

If I had that kind of cash lying around, especially if it was hard earned, I can think of a thousand better things to spend it on than purchasing a job flying as a first officer on an airline jet in Asia. Like a house for my family, or investing it wisely to grow to something larger for the future.

Perhaps consider if you're not willing to actually go out and fly real airplanes to get some experience before you are given the fate of 100s of people in your hands, that perhaps aviation isn't for you. But PLEASE, do not destroy the opportunity for others after you by creating an industry where pilots no longer get paid, but must pay for the privilege. Please think of people who do this for a living so they can support themselves and their family, rather than turning the job into a hobby.

[Eric Janson]

I find it ridiculous that so many pilots are against this. What's the alternative for fresh pilots in Canada ? Fly small(er) planes for 10 years building hours. Don't get me wrong, I think that is great experience, if pilots were fairly compensated. That is not the case though. Pilots are making crap money for those ten years working long, hard hours, even working the ramp for a while before they actually get to fly. Meanwhile, guys in Korea and Europe are jumping straight into jets after getting their CPL. Pilots in the old days didn't have to go through this shit either. That doesn't sound very fair to me. So, maybe we have to do whatever it takes to even out the playing field. Besides, I am not getting any money from parents or bank loans. It is my own hard earned money.

I think you are pretty uninformed about what exactly a P2F scheme involves.

Firstly it is not a route to a job with the Airline selling you the hours - as I've said before after the 500 hours you are out and another P2F candidate takes over from you.

Any P2F scheme is a scam - you are paying for a job at substandard pay whilst ruining terms and conditions for everyone else.
You think these companies pay market rate salaries? Guess again.

In some cases you pay more than the cost price for a rating with the additional amount covering your salary while you fly 500 hours.

There are Airlines that have cadet programes. These Airlines select and train suitable candidates to a much higher standard than those people buying a rating. My Airline is one of these. I've flown with plenty of 200 hour cadet Pilots straight out of line training. They enjoy proper terms and conditions.

Let me educate you about the financial side of P2F. After completing their training in Europe and buying a Type Rating most people will have C$ 190,000+ of debt. Entry level salaries are so low that they will not even cover the interest payments on this amount. I know of Pilots that have had to declare personal bankruptcy. Assuming they can keep their head above water financially they are looking at 20+ years to pay back this amount.

The above is simply not a viable career. An increasing number of people are realising this and are not choosing Aviation.

This isn't the playing field you want to be on.

Fact:- There are no jobs in Europe for people with a 737NG rating and 500 hours on Type. A lot of people doing this are in for a nasty surprise.

What is the issue with starting at the bottom and working your way up? I've done it and it looks like most people posting here have done it as well.

[cdnpilot77]

I think you are pretty uninformed about what exactly a P2F scheme involves.

Firstly it is not a route to a job with the Airline selling you the hours - as I've said before after the 500 hours you are out and another P2F candidate takes over from you.

Any P2F scheme is a scam - you are paying for a job at substandard pay whilst ruining terms and conditions for everyone else.
You think these companies pay market rate salaries? Guess again.

In some cases you pay more than the cost price for a rating with the additional amount covering your salary while you fly 500 hours.

There are Airlines that have cadet programes. These Airlines select and train suitable candidates to a much higher standard than those people buying a rating. My Airline is one of these. I've flown with plenty of 200 hour cadet Pilots straight out of line training. They enjoy proper terms and conditions.

Let me educate you about the financial side of P2F. After completing their training in Europe and buying a Type Rating most people will have C$ 190,000+ of debt. Entry level salaries are so low that they will not even cover the interest payments on this amount. I know of Pilots that have had to declare personal bankruptcy. Assuming they can keep their head above water financially they are looking at 20+ years to pay back this amount.

The above is simply not a viable career. An increasing number of people are realising this and are not choosing Aviation.

This isn't the playing field you want to be on.

Fact:- There are no jobs in Europe for people with a 737NG rating and 500 hours on Type. A lot of people doing this are in for a nasty surprise.

What is the issue with starting at the bottom and working your way up? I've done it and it looks like most people posting here have done it as well.

Very well said! Perhaps he should take a read on PPRUNE and get an eye opened from all the 200hrs pilots with type ratings that have been without work for a year or 2+ and so desperate they too will "do anything" to get that job but they are "too good" and "overqualified" to take entry level jobs...maybe he will see just how pathetic that scam is!

[Redneck_pilot86]

I find it ridiculous that so many pilots are against this. What's the alternative for fresh pilots in Canada ? Fly small(er) planes for 10 years building hours. Don't get me wrong, I think that is great experience, if pilots were fairly compensated. That is not the case though. Pilots are making crap money for those ten years working long, hard hours, even working the ramp for a while before they actually get to fly. Meanwhile, guys in Korea and Europe are jumping straight into jets after getting their CPL. Pilots in the old days didn't have to go through this shit either. That doesn't sound very fair to me. So, maybe we have to do whatever it takes to even out the playing field. Besides, I am not getting any money from parents or bank loans. It is my own hard earned money.

I think you are pretty uninformed about what exactly a P2F scheme involves.

Firstly it is not a route to a job with the Airline selling you the hours - as I've said before after the 500 hours you are out and another P2F candidate takes over from you.

Any P2F scheme is a scam - you are paying for a job at substandard pay whilst ruining terms and conditions for everyone else.
You think these companies pay market rate salaries? Guess again.

In some cases you pay more than the cost price for a rating with the additional amount covering your salary while you fly 500 hours.

There are Airlines that have cadet programes. These Airlines select and train suitable candidates to a much higher standard than those people buying a rating. My Airline is one of these. I've flown with plenty of 200 hour cadet Pilots straight out of line training. They enjoy proper terms and conditions.

Let me educate you about the financial side of P2F. After completing their training in Europe and buying a Type Rating most people will have C$ 190,000+ of debt. Entry level salaries are so low that they will not even cover the interest payments on this amount. I know of Pilots that have had to declare personal bankruptcy. Assuming they can keep their head above water financially they are looking at 20+ years to pay back this amount.

The above is simply not a viable career. An increasing number of people are realising this and are not choosing Aviation.

This isn't the playing field you want to be on.

Fact:- There are no jobs in Europe for people with a 737NG rating and 500 hours on Type. A lot of people doing this are in for a nasty surprise.

What is the issue with starting at the bottom and working your way up? I've done it and it looks like most people posting here have done it as well.

Heres an idea for you. Take that C$190k that you are apparently already willing to blow, less whatever you have spent on a CPL and MIFR...Lets be generous and say that cost you 60k. Give that remaining $130k to me, and I will give you 300 hours MPIC, and actually teach you how to fly an airplane. You leave with ~500 hours, mostly MPIC, and I leave with a year and a halves wages. Win-Win, no?

[complexintentions]

Just to toss a rock in the pond, the son of a friend of mine was just promoted captain on a 777 for a large middle eastern airline - he's 30 and celebrated both events by buying a new Porsche... he never bought his type.

Hmm. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? I'm in the left seat B777 in the Middle East as well, never bought a rating (or a Porsche for that matter, I'm here to put money in my OWN pocket, thanks!). So it is possible to make it to the "big iron" (if that's the goal, and god knows it isn't all it's cracked up to be) without buying your training, if that's what you're trying to say.

BUT: it is also a fact that we have hired HUNDREDS of Ryanair guys in the last year alone, all of for whom bought their ratings on the NG, and for most FR was their first and only job prior. So right or wrong, it could be argued that "pay for flying" worked out very well for them. At the very least, the argument that all airlines employing these schemes are all safety disasters is patently false.

I am not endorsing the practice whatsoever, I find it repugnant. But it is reality. And it won't go away due to people in North America admonishing others on an internet forum to "do the right thing". The "right thing" is a highly subjective concept depending on one's individual circumstances, as it turns out. P2F will only recede when the horror stories of debt and exploitation grow so bad that NO one is interested...and let's face it, there will always be another idiot with visions of shiny NG ratings dancing in their head. It's the Greater Fool principle at work.

Is your "son of a friend" at Etihad, Emirates, or Qatar? I am privy to the seniority list (showing date of hire, position and date of birth) at one of these carriers and I see no one recently upgraded that matches your "friend's son" age as described so just curious. PM if you wish, he and I may be colleagues.

[daedalusx]

I find it ridiculous that so many pilots are against this. What's the alternative for fresh pilots in Canada ? Fly small(er) planes for 10 years building hours. Don't get me wrong, I think that is great experience, if pilots were fairly compensated. That is not the case though. Pilots are making crap money for those ten years working long, hard hours, even working the ramp for a while before they actually get to fly. Pilots in the old days didn't have to go through this shit either. That doesn't sound very fair to me. So, maybe we have to do whatever it takes to even out the playing field. Besides, I am not getting any money from parents or bank loans. It is my own hard earned money.

Meanwhile, guys in Korea and Europe are jumping straight into jets after getting their CPL.

Totally, 150% wrong! You have no fucking clue buddy.

Just quit now and save everyone the trouble.

[rigpiggy]

If it is so "moral" post your real name here, I can pretty much guarantee you'd be the object of scorn and derision from nearly everybody you work for or with.

[High and Behind]

Isn't paying to fly like renting? Only you can't buzz your buddies cottage with an NG.

[delay256]

Like it or not, MPL is here. Cadets usually pay upwards of $120,000 for Core FLying, MFTD, Type Rating and 500-1500 hours of Line Training.

Would this too be considered Pay 2 Fly?

I do think eagle , california falcon aviation, skies consultants and all the rest of those brokers are ripping people off through these malevolent schemes. A lot of people have been stuck in Indonesia for over 6 months and still havent started their line training.

That being said, I can sympathise with people that do it. It has worked out well for some who have successfully finished the block hours and are now employed with the carrier.

[Eric Janson]

Like it or not, MPL is here. Cadets usually pay upwards of $120,000 for Core FLying, MFTD, Type Rating and 500-1500 hours of Line Training.

Would this too be considered Pay 2 Fly?

MPL and P2F are 2 different things.

MPL is company specific. The company selects the Pilots and their Licences are only valid for that particular company. The company normally bonds the candidates for a certain period of time.

For the record I don't agree with the concept of MPL - just another way for the Airlines to save money.

[stall recovery]

Everyone is against pay to fly and working for free because it has a negative effect on the whole industry. It brings down wages and working conditions. After all, if it weren't for these things, they would have to hire paid pilots. But what about working for poverty level wages on the ramp or as an instructor ? Most of you think these jobs are acceptable because that is how you guys started. It is totally acceptable to earn next to nothing working long hours on the ramp in shitty locations. It is also totally fine working long hours as an instructor making less than minimum wage. Accepting shit pay and working conditions in these jobs also brings down wages and working conditions. After all, if no pilot accepted this, they would have to pay / treat pilots fairly. Saying...yes i do not value my education and training as a pilot, yes i am willing to work a manual labour job on the ramp with poverty level wages, long hours, poor working conditions and shitty location...is that any less degrading than paying to fly a jet ? or working long hours as an instructor and still making peanuts...is that any better than working for free ? Rather than working the ramp or working as an instrcutor making 15k a year, why don't you find a good job making 50k a year, save money for a year and put it towards a pay to fly program. Is that not a sensible way to start in this shitty industry ? You could also see that 50k you put towards a pay to fly program as a training cost. After all, doctors and lawyers have to spend huge amounts of money to get trained in medical / law school. Similarly, pilots have to spend huge amounts of money (pay to fly) to get the training they need. Doctors and lawyers are rewarded in the end with high-paying jobs. Pilots are rewarded in the end with having an awesome career that never feels like work.

[fingersmac]

IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE TO PAY TO WORK A JOB THAT YOU WOULD OTHERWISE BE PAID TO DO. What part of that don't you understand? Flying 500 hours on the line as an FO is NOT TRAINING - it's the job that we are paid to do. Flying for Lion Air as a P2F FO is NOT the same as attending law school or medical school.

On a side note, I can tell you that not all ramp jobs pay poverty levels. My ramp job paid me about $30K, hardly a poverty wage. I was trained, at no expense to me, on three aircraft types in four years. Yes, I had to live up north but it was an enjoyable experience and four years later, I'm at an airline.

Also, you're pretty naive to think anyone can just "find a good job making $50K a year" not to mention "save money for a year" when you have expenses like rent, utilities, food, etc (unless you're living in your parents basement).

And I'm not sure you really grasp how expensive this P2F scheme through Eagle Jet is. It's $40K just for the privilege for working for Lion Air. It does not include your type rating and incidentals nor your living expenses while wading through the inevitable red tape and bureaucracy you'll encounter in Indonesia not to mention the first 8 months or so while you're online NOT BEING PAID!

[JAHinYYC]

Having read and reread this thread from start to finish a couple of times, I wanted to post the following scenario and my analysis for commentary by the group:

Scenario A
- A Pilot purchases a type rating and 500hr block of B1900 SIC time through the Eagle Jet International P2F scheme for US$27,000 in the hopes that the time on type and experience will enhance his appeal to prospective future employers;

versus

Scenario B
- A Pilot spends $100,000 to buy a Twin Comanche/Apache/Duchess etc and spends 18months and approximately $25,000 in gas, maintenance and insurance flying around from small airport to small airport logging 500hrs of MPIC time in the hopes that the time and experience will enhance his appeal to prospective future employers.

Hasn't the pilot in both instances essentially paid to enhance his credentials and sought an advantage over those working the ramp up through entry level positions?

Or does the ethical breach come as a result of the pilot in scenario a displacing a fellow pilot from what would otherwise be a paid position?

Would a pilot amassing time under scenario B be dealt with as harshly as some posters have suggested the pilot in scenario A would be - ie that their resume would be discarded without a second look?

[Bede]

Everyone is against pay to fly and working for free because it has a negative effect on the whole industry. It brings down wages and working conditions. After all, if it weren't for these things, they would have to hire paid pilots. But what about working for poverty level wages on the ramp or as an instructor ? Most of you think these jobs are acceptable because that is how you guys started. It is totally acceptable to earn next to nothing working long hours on the ramp in shitty locations. It is also totally fine working long hours as an instructor making less than minimum wage. Accepting shit pay and working conditions in these jobs also brings down wages and working conditions. After all, if no pilot accepted this, they would have to pay / treat pilots fairly. Saying...yes i do not value my education and training as a pilot, yes i am willing to work a manual labour job on the ramp with poverty level wages, long hours, poor working conditions and shitty location...is that any less degrading than paying to fly a jet ? or working long hours as an instructor and still making peanuts...is that any better than working for free ? Rather than working the ramp or working as an instrcutor making 15k a year, why don't you find a good job making 50k a year, save money for a year and put it towards a pay to fly program. Is that not a sensible way to start in this shitty industry ? You could also see that 50k you put towards a pay to fly program as a training cost. After all, doctors and lawyers have to spend huge amounts of money to get trained in medical / law school. Similarly, pilots have to spend huge amounts of money (pay to fly) to get the training they need. Doctors and lawyers are rewarded in the end with high-paying jobs. Pilots are rewarded in the end with having an awesome career that never feels like work.

I find it ironic that you started this thread saying this was not a thread about the morality of P2F and then you go on to defend the morality of it.

I'm kind of utilitarian, so go ahead and pay for your flying. I don't care. However, there are a few things you should know: an instructor is still getting paid to work, not paying to work. Big difference. There is a reason the P2F scheme is not legal in Canada: if you have paying passengers on board you need pilots who are employees, not trainees.

Some pilots are good at what they do. They bring value to their companies and are therefore compensated accordingly. The best pilots (bringing value to their employer) generally end up at the best paying companies for their level (whether that's a good 703 operator or a good 705 operator). Some end up doing highly specialized work that pays accordingly (crop spraying). If you are paying to fly it means that for some economic reason you bring no (or even a negative) value to your position. If I was hiring a pilot to fly a 737, I wouldn't care that they paid to fly, but the fact that you brought no value to their previous employer would be a big red flag. If they brought no value to a previous employer, why would they bring value to a new employer? Employers are all about getting value for wages they pay.

The decent operators (WJ, AC, etc) have no problem getting experienced pilots-they're a dime a dozen. However, they want experienced guys who will be a good fit and bring value to their operations. However, some companies won't care and you'll find a job. Keep in mind though, they're probably not the company you want to make a career of working for (JetsGo, etc).

So go ahead, if you think getting time at Eagle Jet will be good career choice, only you can decide that. However, don't be surprised if your career takes you from shady operator to shady operator. And if by the time you have 10k hours, you're still wondering why you aren't getting called by a decent operator making a good wage with good working conditions, you will know why. The other option is to be humble, understand that you don't bring a huge value to your employer, but you still bring some positive value and get a job accordingly.

You have no clue about doctors/lawyers. Those professions pay big money for their schooling (like we do). When they are done their schooling they get trained in the specialty they choose. For physicians/surgeons they get this training/experience through a residency program. They get paid to attend these programs. Lawyers article which is also a paid position. Pilots fly a SE on FO on a twin-PAID.

To the last poster: A guy renting a plane for 500hrs to build time is not working. However, the experience is somewhat useless. There is a big difference between 500hrs flying around the patch and working for a living. I would give no credit to an applicant with private rental experience. I have nothing against it, but I find it somewhat useless (plus they probably got some bad habits.)

[Redneck_pilot86]

Having read and reread this thread from start to finish a couple of times, I wanted to post the following scenario and my analysis for commentary by the group:

Scenario A
- A Pilot purchases a type rating and 500hr block of B1900 SIC time through the Eagle Jet International P2F scheme for US$27,000 in the hopes that the time on type and experience will enhance his appeal to prospective future employers;

versus

Scenario B
- A Pilot spends $100,000 to buy a Twin Comanche/Apache/Duchess etc and spends 18months and approximately $25,000 in gas, maintenance and insurance flying around from small airport to small airport logging 500hrs of MPIC time in the hopes that the time and experience will enhance his appeal to prospective future employers.

Hasn't the pilot in both instances essentially paid to enhance his credentials and sought an advantage over those working the ramp up through entry level positions?

Or does the ethical breach come as a result of the pilot in scenario a displacing a fellow pilot from what would otherwise be a paid position?

Would a pilot amassing time under scenario B be dealt with as harshly as some posters have suggested the pilot in scenario A would be - ie that their resume would be discarded without a second look?

I have bolded the key point in your post. This is EXACTLY what the problem is. By buying yourself a job, you have screwed someone somewhere out of that job, and as such, lowered the demand for pilots everywhere. One person may not have a very large effect on the industry as a whole, but I'm sure you can see how a lot of people doing this would negatively effect the industry.
To answer your second question, regarding how the person with the 500 hours of privately acquired MPIC would be viewed...there is no question that insurance companies like people with experience and don't seem to care where the experience comes from...I would be more inclined to hire the person with the 500 mpic over a person with no experience, but I would be more inclined to hire someone with 500 mpic that they gained by working and experiencing some of the less than ideal scenarios that come up when you are working for someone else, as opposed to the person that has flown privately and most likely only went when the wx/daylight/loads/etc were ideal. If you don't push your own limits a little, there is no way to increase your experience levels.

In the real world, it is experience that matters, and hours are not necessarily indicative of experience.

[stall recovery]

You have no clue about doctors/lawyers. Those professions pay big money for their schooling (like we do). When they are done their schooling they get trained in the specialty they choose. For physicians/surgeons they get this training/experience through a residency program. They get paid to attend these programs. Lawyers article which is also a paid position. Pilots fly a SE on FO on a twin-PAID.

Actually, I do have a clue about how those professions work. I have several friends in medical school and law school. My point was that their tuition fees while they are in school (before residency / articling) are extremely high, especially in the US. Also, the amount of time they are in school is on average longer compared to getting your CPL.

By the way, I do see your point but just to play the devil's advocate....
Consider medical school is four years. First two years is all lectures and last two years is all clinicals, and then residency.
Clinicals are like two years of on-the-job training where students are paying huge sums of money in tuition.
That could be considered similar to pay to fly for pilots. You are paying to get some on-the-job training.

[fingersmac]

That could be considered similar to pay to fly for pilots. You are paying to get some on-the-job training.

No it's not. No one in this industry is required to pay for "on-the-job training". This is only a recent phenomena perpetuated by people who are too lazy and impatient to build their experience the traditional way. Certain airlines and companies have found a way to capitalize on this, like Eagle Jet.

[Bede]

By the way, I do see your point but just to play the devil's advocate....
Consider medical school is four years. First two years is all lectures and last two years is all clinicals, and then residency.
Clinicals are like two years of on-the-job training where students are paying huge sums of money in tuition.
That could be considered similar to pay to fly for pilots. You are paying to get some on-the-job training.

Not similar at all. As a medical student doing rounds during clerkship you have no responsibility and you aren't doing anything that can kill anyone (prescribing meds, unassisted procedures, etc.). As a resident you are a medical doctor under supervision but you have real responsibility including prescribing meds, diagnosis, etc. As a first officer, you are a qualified professional with a professional responsibility and a duty of care to your passengers. You are not doing on the job training anymore.

[alti2d]

Specifically concerning Eagle Jet and Ameriflight B1900/Be99/SW4 pay to play programs...

From my indirect experience, each individual entering such a program has their own specific rational for choosing that route. Some reasons include people that got into flying later and decide that they cannot afford to spend 10 years in the bush (afford in terms of 'lost' time), some saved pennies and decided that that was their best option and of course, a myriad other sorts of rationals, agree with them or not, that was their choice. Whatever the reasons, some of those program first officers were quite good and very motivated to learn and improve themselves, others are less so. Much like everywhere else one will find in aviation.

Concerning Ameriflight in particular, primarily a Part 135 UPS, FedEx and DHL cargo only feeder, these program entrants were not and could not be pushing out other pilots from these position as first officers since AMF operates their entire fleet of 1900s, Be99 and SW4 under single pilot IFR ops. All crew are trained in single and multi crew ops, though single pilot IFR is the norm. There are no regularly paid/employed FOs on those aircraft.

[Meatservo]

If that's the case, then I hope the captains of those aircraft are demanding extra pay to be instructors on top of doing their regular jobs.

[Colonel Sanders]

I hope the captains of those aircraft are demanding extra pay to be instructors on top of doing their regular jobs

Isn't that the way it works in Europe? With little or no GA,
I understand they toss kids with 300TT in the right seats
of Boeings and Airbuses, and the guy in the left seat
has to fly the airplane and teach the kid in the right seat.

[Panama Jack]

Wow, xsbank, how to I emulate all three of those things (getting onto a 777, buying a Porsche, and turning 30 again)? What did I do wrong?

[crazy_aviator]

How many on avcanada were PAID to get their PPL CPL Multi, IR etc ? Im willing to bet that ALL pilots whored themselves to various pilot schools to get even the basic ratings, I DID ! And so, when you get that first comm job,, your thoughts QUICKLY turn to the NEXT bigger and better job ,,,face it folks, Were all whores when it comes to commercial flying, some just more whorish than others

[Beefitarian]

I wouldn't mind a Porche but if I were 30 I think I'd rather find "whores" that would pay me!

[complexintentions]

xsbank never did get back to me with some verifiable details, so if my other post was too vague, I call bullsh$t...it isn't rocket science to pin down a "30 year old widebody captain", just give some proof and I'll check the seniority lists, no problem!

Besides, Porsches are for guys with a mid-life crisis, 30 seems a tad young for that.