AME shortage?

[NeverBlue]

The industry wishes

...Ahhh Mr Richard another profound statement. Who exactly is "the industry"? Is it some big brother watching over us?
Just can't stay away from aviation huh? I thought you were out...had enough ...just can't stay away

the reality as I see it, 2 years of college really doesn't mean anything. The grads can't actually fix planes unless they were mechanically handy previously. You don't learn to be a mechanic in college.

But the shortage is experienced AMEs. Since the college is not enough to actually mean anything to fix planes, you needed to gain this knowledge working on planes.

It takes at most companies 3 years after college before you could ACA someone. And thats if the person has some drive and works on getting a licence rather than being career apprentices.

It's time the industry evaluates the trade and decides are we just meat on the floor or do we need this to be more of a 4 year college program and you come out licenced.

low wages, poor education, ridiculous pressure and responsibility... why isn't everyone in this trade?

2 yrs not enough?...How much is required to become a welder? ...an oil patch worker?...

AME training lasts 5 years anyway you slice it...2 years "Basic Training" and 2.5 years on the job training. Most licensed people make good money. I don't know any working licensed people that are poor.

I'd like to see them do away with bullshit logbooks, lose the apprenticeship and merge the E course with the M course and come out with some decent skill and knowledge.

That one's hilarious
I always see people posting on these threads that do not understand what basic training is or what apprenticing in aviation is.

Just to clarify brownbear if one doesn't have drive enough to get a license then yes...they are just meat on the floor and if you think going to school longer makes anyone better at they're job in the end, you just don't get it...

No one can go to school and come out an AME without any practicle experience....that's just stupid.

This industry is for people who want to be in it...period.

Those that want to work to make money to buy toys and massive homes, two SUV's, flat screens in every room in the house, a cell for every family member...well you'll never be happy with your wage.

Those who want a carreer, to be home every night, to like going to work everyday...I'm not sure you'll like the oil patch... and I know it won't be there forever...and when you're laid off and you have all that outstanding debt that demands $100,000/yr income...well...good luck. There's a lot of unemployed autoworkers out there with the same deal.

25 years in aviation and no complaints...I knew what I was getting into...knew how to work hard to get ahead... and am enjoying the benefits of my hard work everyday of my life.
I have also used the knowleged I've gained through school and industry experience to help me understand and work with the many other technologies this world runs on...Marine, Automotive, Computers etc.

[iflyforpie]

Who exactly is "the industry"?

'The industry' is anybody who works in aviation. Most of 'the industry' expects the workers to do more for less simply because they are in aviation. This includes owners, executives, accountants, managers, and even co-workers who expect or accept lower wages and worse working conditions than those with comparable skills in other fields.

[c170b53]

NB that was.... interesting;
IFFP gave the bottom up reality view
This is how the game is played from the top http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... r7-282.htm

[The Weasel]

Who exactly is "the industry"?

'The industry' is anybody who works in aviation. Most of 'the industry' expects the workers to do more for less simply because they are in aviation. This includes owners, executives, accountants, managers, and even co-workers who expect or accept lower wages and worse working conditions than those with comparable skills in other fields.

And how does this differ from any other line of work around the world? Is there a line of work where the owners/managers are fighting each other to pay their employees MORE money or higher wages or offer less work than necessary? (Actually, I just thought of one: pro sports...) Outside of very few temporary bubbles or specific industry situations, this doesn't happen. It's life, it's what markets do, it's competition, it's been like that for millenia. Everybody (including the common workers) wants more for less (have you ever shopped around for a better price?), or something for nothing (ever wanted something from the government but also complained about taxes?), etc.

[iflyforpie]

Is there a line of work where the owners/managers are fighting each other to pay their employees MORE money or higher wages or offer less work than necessary?

There are all kinds of work where owners and managers do just that.... even in aviation, but it's a rarity. It's called head hunting. They offer higher wages and bonuses to attract and retain better employees and through those better employees they get the job done in less time and done right.

But lots of companies in aviation are the exact opposite. They look at experienced employees or ones with higher credentials as liabilities or even threats. Thus, we are seeing lots of the old guard who have seen wage roll backs and forced overtime leaving the industry for good. The ones that stay are now babysitting dozens of apprentices while under constant pressure from middle management. Maybe it makes economic sense to operate that way--but it sure doesn't make for a pleasant or safe working environment.

[Pat Richard]

Is there a line of work where the owners/managers are fighting each other to pay their employees MORE money or higher wages or offer less work than necessary?

There are all kinds of work where owners and managers do just that.... even in aviation, but it's a rarity. It's called head hunting. They offer higher wages and bonuses to attract and retain better employees and through those better employees they get the job done in less time and done right.

But lots of companies in aviation are the exact opposite. They look at experienced employees or ones with higher credentials as liabilities or even threats. Thus, we are seeing lots of the old guard who have seen wage roll backs and forced overtime leaving the industry for good. The ones that stay are now babysitting dozens of apprentices while under constant pressure from middle management. Maybe it makes economic sense to operate that way--but it sure doesn't make for a pleasant or safe working environment.

Can't be any clearer than this, especially the first bit. The fact that he had to explain it is pathetic. Fact is, aviation is doing nothing to retain/attract experienced workers, they keep looking for a "better deal" and can't/won't accept the fact that the majority
of skilled AME's not interested in what they are offering.
Other industries step up/buck up when faced with the same issues, not aircraft maintenance.

Supply and Demand never seems to apply.

[The Weasel]

There are all kinds of work where owners and managers do just that.... even in aviation, but it's a rarity.

Yeah, that's what I wrote.

It's called head hunting. They offer higher wages and bonuses to attract and retain better employees and through those better employees they get the job done in less time and done right.

Like I said, this happens but it's rare, even in other industries. Not uncommonly, once the bubble bursts or the rush is over or the season slows down, it's back to layoffs and cutbacks.

But lots of companies in aviation are the exact opposite. They look at experienced employees or ones with higher credentials as liabilities or even threats. Thus, we are seeing lots of the old guard who have seen wage roll backs and forced overtime leaving the industry for good. The ones that stay are now babysitting dozens of apprentices while under constant pressure from middle management. Maybe it makes economic sense to operate that way--but it sure doesn't make for a pleasant or safe working environment.

I don't think this complaint is uncommon outside of aviation. How often do we hear about corporations or governments encouraging or forcing early retirement on their longest serving and most experienced employees. They do this to save money as those workers cost a lot of money. This is not only occurring in aviation.

[The Weasel]

Supply and Demand never seems to apply.

How can it not? Does aviation exist in some kind of socialist or dictatorial utopia, completely unaffected by market economics, the tide of history, or national/global events and politics?

The customers will dictate what happens. Most travellers want cheap airfare, and most contractors want cheap charter rates. This will determine the demand for maintenance services. As aircraft are not falling out of the sky at a significant rate (and those that are, are rarely failing due to shotty maintenance), high quality maintenance can be viewed to a certain extent as 'overkill'. It's nice to have but not absolutely necessary. The rate of human maintenance failure causing an accident is a small minority of the accident rate. The significant majority of accidents are still pilot and/or weather related.

Cutting back on maintenance to the regulatory minimum saves money, rates can be lowered, and the customer is happy. Supply and demand is thus applied. When customers demand high quality maintenance services, rates will rise, and wages/benifits will increase. In some cases customers DO demand higher quality maintenance (perhaps higher quality than the last people they flew for whose minimally maintained aircraft slowed production on the previous contract), but generally people will go for the lowest bidder, just like you or I would shop around for a better deal on a new TV.

Some of us might be willing to pay a little more for a better quality or longer lasting TV, but the majority of people are going by price, and that's what dictates the products available. Supply and demand is in play. We may not always like how it works, but what are you gonna do, really? We can ask for a raise, better benifits and conditions. If the company says no, then what? Stomp our feet saying the world and life is unfair?

[SeptRepair]

..... We may not always like how it works, but what are you gonna do, really? We can ask for a raise, better benifits and conditions. If the company says no, then what? Stomp our feet saying the world and life is unfair?

No, what you can do is warn others who are thinking about entering our industry that it isn't all roses and it is a pretty fucked up industry considering the responsibility vs the re numeration.

[Pat Richard]

Weasel - Supply and Demand with regards to an experienced AME's wages going up because supply is low and the demand is there. Wages are generally the same still as they were 10 years ago, which equates to less factoring in cost of living, etc.

Like I mentioned, other industries are much more proactive, while aviation sits and waits for a glut of desperate engineers to materialize and take their offers. This hasn't worked for many years now, but they still cling to the idea that it is just around the corner. They can't seem to accept many experienced guys would rather leave aviation than take what is being offered.

Aircraft Maintenance is in a state of steady shopping around, and personally, I think this will never change.

[Pat Richard]

..... We may not always like how it works, but what are you gonna do, really? We can ask for a raise, better benifits and conditions. If the company says no, then what? Stomp our feet saying the world and life is unfair?

No, what you can do is warn others who are thinking about entering our industry that it isn't all roses and it is a pretty fucked up industry considering the responsibility vs the re numeration.

Amen

[The Weasel]

No, what you can do is warn others who are thinking about entering our industry that it isn't all roses and it is a pretty fucked up industry considering the responsibility vs the re numeration.

Of course it isn't all roses. No line of work is. Life isn't all roses either. Life sucks and is mostly unfair, no matter where you go or what you do. All I'm trying to do, is use some perspective. Name a line of work where everybody is happy, nobody complains, and are always paid a fair wage. Even workers in apparently cushy government or union jobs (who get better benifits and conditions than most private sector workers) go on strike semi-regularly. Everybody has a complaint somewhere along the line, and everybody always wants something more.

[The Weasel]

Weasel - Supply and Demand with regards to an experienced AME's wages going up because supply is low and the demand is there. Wages are generally the same still as they were 10 years ago, which equates to less factoring in cost of living, etc.

If wages haven't moved much, then the supply vs demand for those AMEs hasn't reached a critical level. Either there's still enough AMEs to go around (supply) or there just isn't enough of a demand for them. In my area of the industry, about 6-7 years ago the supply vs demand did reach a critical level, and there were major increases in pay and many companies were using head-hunting bonuses. The economy has obviously slowed since then, and so the demand isn't quite the same nowadays.

Demand isn't "It'd be nice to have more AMEs". Demand is "A/C are parked and customers are walking away because we can't get A/C into the air". Until the later happens, nothing will change. Like I said before, if the work is still more-or-less getting done and A/C aren't falling apart, then the demand for AMEs is not currently at a level of critical mass.

Like I mentioned, other industries are much more proactive, while aviation sits and waits for a glut of desperate engineers to materialize and take their offers. This hasn't worked for many years now, but they still cling to the idea that it is just around the corner. They can't seem to accept many experienced guys would rather leave aviation than take what is being offered.

I don't know if I see other industries trying all that much harder to recruit quality people. If they can outsource something, bring in temporary foreign workers, hire inexperienced/cheaper workers, etc, then they will do it to save money.

Aircraft Maintenance is in a state of steady shopping around, and personally, I think this will never change.

So all industries other than aviation DON'T try to minimize their overhead if they can get away with it? Paying more for a product or service than you need to is not a good business model, for companies or individuals. Everything being equal (quality of service, warranty, etc) would you pay more for the same TV at a different store for no reason?

[iflyforpie]

What hasn't been discussed (or maybe it has.. I never looked that far back) is the reason why there maybe isn't a shortage and jets aren't parked with waiting passengers is because the maintenance is being done elsewhere.

You see... wages haven't kept up so people are leaving or demanding more.. and the response is not to increase them, but to either bring in contractors from places like the Philippines who's plane tickets, housing, and what they actually will take home will be far less... or simply spend a few ten-thousand to re-position a jet to the Third World where you can get your maintenance done for cheaper.

If you are working for a Third Party MRO in Canada... you know exactly what I am talking about. Only helicopters and GA and AMOs attached to airlines for the most part are immune to globalization. How many MROs have closed their doors in the last little while?

[NeverBlue]

Wages are generally the same still as they were 10 years ago, which equates to less factoring in cost of living, etc.

You are dead wrong sir...all the statistics show that aviation maintenance apprentice wages have gone up about 20% in the last decade...that is apprentice jobs averaged about $12 - $15 per hour a decade ago and now they're up around $15 - $18

...an increase of more than double the minimum wage increase in the same time and any civil servant or provincial employee (BC , Ontatio) has had very little during the same time, mostly signing bonuses not increases.
Some BCGEU trade sectors have had nothing, 0, for the last 8 years.

since I started in this industry (25 yrs) my wages have increased over 500%...yes that's right 500%
Started @$8.50/hr...now making over $43/hr...based on a 2100 hr year.

You make great points...Weasel

NB

[iflyforpie]

I was making nearly $20 as an apprentice ten years ago. Started at $15. This was when a nice detached house in the Okanagan or Lower Mainland could be had for $150K... when gas was $0.55/l... when GM Goodwrench was charging $60/hour...

Now that the same costs $350K, $1.30/l, and $120/hour...more than double in many cases... are we seeing wages that are starting at $30/hr for apprentices and going as high as $40? Also consider that tax brackets haven't kept up either... so those who are actually making $40 an hour are giving more to the government... thus have less purchasing power.

I still see people offering low to mid $20 for licensed guys. Wages have not kept up, period.

[NeverBlue]

Okanagan or Lower Mainland could be had for $150K... when gas was $0.55/l... when GM Goodwrench was charging $60/hour...

Now that the same costs $350K,

Now the same house in Southwestern Ontario still costs $150K...cheaper in New Brunswick and still cheaper in Newfoundland
You can't compare apples to oranges!
Housing is supply and demand period and the Okanagan and Lower Mainland are desirable places to live...Oil and Gas is supply and demand as well.

Goodwrench may be asking double per hour but they're not paying their mechanics twice as much!

[NeverBlue]

If we're talking about wages in general in Canada that's a completely different argument then wages in Canadian aviation and has nothing to do with this thread.

[NeverBlue]

I don't see any experienced licensed engineers settling for below $25/hr in any companies that I've worked for in the last 15 years...newly licensed maybe.
That's still $50,000/yr, more than Canada's average wage...

[conehead]

Only helicopters and GA and AMOs attached to airlines for the most part are immune to globalization. How many MROs have closed their doors in the last little while?

How about Aveos? No-one is immune to globalization. For Air Canada, a huge amount of Maintenance is being done outside of Canada. Even the small Line functions and checks are being done on overnight layovers in the U.S. This is a vast difference from even 5 years ago. Things are changing quickly in this business.

[knucklesdragon]

Holy shit honest I can make a whole 50,000 dollars a year for looking after your crappy airplane and while you drive off in your 75000 truck to your mistris. 50000 dollars now is the Albertian limit for welfare!!! you can collect it and qualify for low income housing. What a fcuking joke we AME's have become. Right now colleges are holding their open houses for next years classes. you can take a seven month course write two provincial exams and start a job around the 70-80 000/ yr mark. Go for a second term (4-5 months) Again write a couple of government exams and start at 90-110 000 year. So why would anyone be attracted to this industry and not be fcuked in the head!!
God damn JD tastes good in the afternoon

[NeverBlue]

you can take a seven month course write two provincial exams and start a job around the 70-80 000/ yr mark. Go for a second term (4-5 months) Again write a couple of government exams and start at 90-110 000 year. So why would anyone be attracted to this industry and not be fcuked in the head!!

so why does the college have to have an open house to attract these people?

[knucklesdragon]

well running a school is big business nowadays. put more bums in the seats equal more government funding. we all have witness and commented on how the aircraft maintenance schools are becoming puppy mills and the same is happening in other trades to fill this labour shortage that different industries are saying. this industry i was referring to has up to a two year waiting list for it in different colleges in alberta. When I was in high school, career councilors were encourging people to go to university in grade twelve. now kids are planning what they what to do in grade eleven or even grade ten because they know just passing doesn't cut it anymore. A person needs top marks just to go to tech schools and qualify for scholarships

[all_ramped_up]

This industry is for people who want to be in it...period.

Those that want to work to make money to buy toys and massive homes, two SUV's, flat screens in every room in the house, a cell for every family member...well you'll never be happy with your wage.

Those who want a carreer, to be home every night, to like going to work everyday...I'm not sure you'll like the oil patch... and I know it won't be there forever...and when you're laid off and you have all that outstanding debt that demands $100,000/yr income...well...good luck. There's a lot of unemployed autoworkers out there with the same deal.

25 years in aviation and no complaints...I knew what I was getting into...knew how to work hard to get ahead... and am enjoying the benefits of my hard work everyday of my life.
I have also used the knowleged I've gained through school and industry experience to help me understand and work with the many other technologies this world runs on...Marine, Automotive, Computers etc.

I totally agree with you.

I've been in the Industry for just over 10 years now and have no real complaints... I'll leave the complaining to everyone else as there's no lack of folks with them.

[NeverBlue]

But lots of companies in aviation are the exact opposite. They look at experienced employees or ones with higher credentials as liabilities or even threats.

Who "in their right mind" would believe this nonsense. No company owner would ever accept with this kind of attitude...ever...in any industry.

...unless they're complete idiots... and who would ever want to work for them?


I think you should have written "lots of experience ( pissing people off) or ones with higher credentials (for filing grievances and giving managers and union reps nightmares) as liabilities or even threats (like the "cancer")