Ice Pilots Started

[Taiser]

I honestly don't see how that company keeps going, at least with a profit...treating people like shit, old (although I love them they can't be cheap to keep flying) planes and a boss I would have probably punched in the head years ago! Doesn't want his planes used as props? Money is money, but I guess not to Joe. There has to be something good there, I just can't see it. Entertaining show at least!

[Cat Driver]

I hope all you real pilots will forgive an old dinosaur for not understanding you should do a missed approach when it does not look right. I never ever had to do an approach when the weather was really bad because back in the old days the weather was always good......God knew we were real dumb so he made sure we had good weather for every approach and landing so we would not kill ourselves.

For sure operators like Buffalo kill lots of pilots by making them fly in non conformance to the rules....

..........By the way, how many of Joe's pilots have died in landing below limits accidents since he started Buffalo Airways?

[CanadianEh]

I can't find the link online, I'm only seeing Season 3 on the History channel website. Anyone got a link?

[pelmet]

I hope all you real pilots will forgive an old dinosaur for not understanding you should do a missed approach when it does not look right. I never ever had to do an approach when the weather was really bad because back in the old days the weather was always good......God knew we were real dumb so he made sure we had good weather for every approach and landing so we would not kill ourselves.

For sure operators like Buffalo kill lots of pilots by making them fly in non conformance to the rules....

..........By the way, how many of Joe's pilots have died in landing below limits accidents since he started Buffalo Airways?

And your point is?

[Cat Driver]

And your point is?

My point is quite transparent.

If Buffalo runs such a high risk, unsafe operation how many pilots have been killed flying for them?

[pelmet]

..........By the way, how many of Joe's pilots have died in landing below limits accidents since he started Buffalo Airways?

Ever wonder why they trashed a DC-4 in Diavik in crummy weather when they hit the rising threshold of runway 10.

Then not that long after they did the exact same thing at Ulu.

Two DC-4 written off, luckily....no dead pilots.

Oh...I guess it is safe ops.

[Cat Driver]

Where did I say Buffalo runs a safe operation?

I asked how many pilots have been killed flying for them.

Let me expand the question.

How many people have been killed flying in Buffalo Airways airplanes?

[Biff]

..........By the way, how many of Joe's pilots have died in landing below limits accidents since he started Buffalo Airways?

Ever wonder why they trashed a DC-4 in Diavik in crummy weather when they hit the rising threshold of runway 10.

Then not that long after they did the exact same thing at Ulu.

Two DC-4 written off, luckily....no dead pilots.

Oh...I guess it is safe ops.

Quite honestly I thought both those accidents occurred during good visual conditions. Do you remember what the actual conditions where?

[pelmet]

Let me expand the question.

How many people have been killed flying in Buffalo Airways airplanes?

A previous post by you associated an unsafe operation with pilot deaths. Perhaps you should be asking how many accidents they have had where people were lucky to not have been killed.

[pelmet]

Quite honestly I thought both those accidents occurred during good visual conditions. Do you remember what the actual conditions where?

Biff,

If you have any more details, they are most welcome.

[Biff]

Quite honestly I thought both those accidents occurred during good visual conditions. Do you remember what the actual conditions where?

Biff,

If you have any more details, they are most welcome.

Lol, no I don't have any more details(my memory is a little unreliable), although I'll try to find the archived weather at the time.

I only posted because I didn't think weather was a factor at all in either of those cases, whereas you had stated that in both cases it was a case of crummy weather and I assume a culture of pushing weather. I was hoping that you be able to provide the weather details as you where the one that mentioned them. Oh well....

[GRK]

Oh I see...Cat is looking for the stat that says if you didn't die, it must be safe! In my previous post I wasn't clear enough I guess. How about I clarify...Let's group unsafe operators together rather than point a finger at them individually. Would that make it easier to understand? Cat, with all your experience, I'm mystified that you would take such a stance when the facts are so clear...a go around will always be the safer option when it goes wrong...or do I sense a little disingenuousness here?

[pelmet]

Quite honestly I thought both those accidents occurred during good visual conditions. Do you remember what the actual conditions where?

If you have any more details, they are most welcome.

Lol, no I don't have any more details(my memory is a little unreliable), although I'll try to find the archived weather at the time.

Historical weather on environment Canada does not give a large amount of detail. Very close by Ekati had cloudy skies all day on the date of the first accident. Cloud heights listed...unknown.

On the date of the second accident, Coppermine had bad weather.

Any more details are welcome.

[Colonel Sanders]

. has a valid point. No one can argue, that over a
period of decades, that the Convergence of the Central
Limit Theorem does not apply.

PS Note that the moderators of this site consider me to
be of "low intelligence" so you might want to take my
opinions on the subjects of Mathematics & Statistics with
a large grain of salt

[xsbank]

New Avcanada rule (cue Sully): you auto-correct weenies must read over what you typed before you hit 'submit.' I'm making the giant leap that you know how to read, despite not having figured out what 'sarcasm' might possibly be. Most elementary school kids 'get' sarcasm but pilots must have killed those brain cells with beer.

Who else took the time to google "Convergence of the Central Limit theorem?"

[Siddley Hawker]

First off, where those two accidents because of a failure to go around, a loss of control after touchdown or did they occur on takeoff? Second, how do the safety stats of Buffalo Airways compare with other major operators in the Yukon/Territories?

[pelmet]

Can be quite true what Meatservo is saying. In the real world, many aircraft up there don't have good alternate options. One does hope the ILS doesn't go off the air.

With many northern airports affected by fog, one could lose an alternate easily while enroute to it. It seems like there are loads of amemdments to the TAFs. When do they amend the forecast....after the weather changes. They should be called aftercasts. But it is too late for you if you are going to your alternate and the weather craps out. A good idea to keep up to date on your weather if there is any doubt.

Frequently, your alternate may be the next closest airport. But if you are going to an alternate that is a fair distance away in these remote areas, it is quite possible that it was chosen because it has fuel or for company operational reasons. Therefore, you may be passing by or in range for a while of a decent weather airport but which has no fuel or another good airport that your company preferred you not to land at. At some point, you may become committed to your non-precision approach alternate and not have enough fuel for anywhere else.

My suggestion....be in contact with FSS and tell them that you want them to monitor your alternate for any special weather reports and pass them on to you immediately. That way ifthe weather at your alternate goes down, hopefully you will know very soon aft this happens which is hopefully prior to you becoming commited to your alternate.

[Gino Under]

Cat Driver

Don't be too bothered by those respondents who've spent most of their flying career strictly adhering to an SOP or CAR. When the fit hits the shan they can't think "outside the box". They've been beaten so many times by check airmen they rarely use critical thinking, TEM or CRM. They're so easily intimidated by regulatory enforcement it sounds like running out of fuel is the gentleman's way out of NOT landing when it's 50 and an eighth or 0-0 for that matter. But they won't think twice about speeding to work at 20-30 km/hr over the limit in blowing snow on a snow covered road.

As for Ice Pilots, can anyone tell me why a low timer would trudge all the way up to Yellowknife to work for an outfit that treats its employees with such contempt and disrespect and who has the audacity to suggest it's "paying" some kind of dues flying clapped out antiques like DC-3s and C-47s?
I'd say they're the ones who should be thankful just having someone show up wanting to fly that crap.
(Based on the conversations and interviews you hear during that show you have to wonder what the collective education level is around that place)
Capt. Simle did the right thing and like he said, it was his decision no matter what Buffalo Joe thought or opined. Good for him.

The youngsters would be much better off flying a King Air or something similar somewhere else with far better operations who actually operate in this day and age.
I have seen the future AND it isn't WWII.

Gino Under

[Gravol]

How do you teach the noobs this critical skill? How would Doc do the same thing?

Reading these forums for quite some time, I cannot remember off hand how many threads you guys have posted in where you went after the individual who bragged about breaking minimums .

So this being said, whats the difference? Aren't you guys usually on the side of safety? How do you teach someone when this sort of action is acceptable and when it's not?

[Beefitarian]

How do you teach the noobs this critical skill? How would Doc do the same thing?

With a yellow shower curtain and special sunglasses during severe clear days.

[Cat Driver]

Beef.....

Google is your friend..


...with a bit of searching you will find you tube videos of our trip from Toulouse to Santiago.

Probably under Patrick Baudry.

[Cat Driver]

So this being said, whats the difference? Aren't you guys usually on the side of safety? How do you teach someone when this sort of action is acceptable and when it's not?

It is acceptable when you have no choice.......

.......that was why we trained for it......

Fly long enough and you will get in situations that were not expected.

Some die when things go way wrong.....

...some live because they knew what to do.

[Diadem]

I don't really think a 0/0 landing is much on-topic with regards to the point at hand, so I'd like to take it back to where it started: doing an overshoot in CAVOK weather because of a possible gear issue. If they'd just shot an ILS down to minima and realized they had low hydraulic pressure, I don't think they would have hesitated to land; with green lights and the gear visible, getting on the ground would be the highest priority. But it wasn't 200 and 1/8, nor was it 0/0. It was severe clear, and they had the time and the fuel to go around and sort out the issue. The company for which I work had a gear-up landing a couple of years ago because the flight crew elected to land immediately instead of resolving the issue. The gear retracted on touchdown. If that had happened to Justin Simle, does anyone doubt Joe would have reamed him out for not going around?

[single_swine_herder]

On a humorous note .....I worked with a fellow bomber pilot who took a leave of absence from our outfit and went to work for Buffalo for a season. It was inevitable that Joe would keep a close eye on everyone in the bombing operation, since it was their first season operating the 215s.

Something inconsequential and long-since forgotten led to a huge blow up between Joe and my buddy. Ultimately after much bluster, posturing, foaming at the mouth with spittle flying, enhanced by the visual effect of red-faced bulging eyes and facial veins, it was decided the only way to decide this discussion on the proper way to fly a CL-215 was to "go out behind the hangar and settle it like men."

As they were walking toward the back of the hangar, continuing to yammer at each other, my buddy related to me that he began to think .... "This isn't the best way to keep a job ...."

The two of them actually got to the back of the hangar, and then both sort of ran out of piss & vinegar at the same time, agreed to disagree before any blows were struck, and everyone went about their business as if none of this had happened.

I got a good belly-laugh out of that story every time my buddy told it as he was cooking a Bison steak or roast for the rest of us.

[Gino Under]

Gravol


It is said that SOPs are written in 'blood'. The blood of fellow aviators who lost their lives due to some form of error. By learning from those mistakes we have been able to write procedures that help guard against a repetition of some of those errors. And for those who don't like to follow SOPs, they're simply destined to provide more blood for the pen. So, respect for and adherence to them is pretty important no matter what aircraft type you fly or kind of operation you fly it in.
They are what keep us safe and the industry accident rates down.

Understanding when to question, modify, or simply not use SOPs comes only from knowledge and experience and it's experience that help us understand when and where SOPs can be safely put aside.
i.e., Sioux City DC-10 Hydraulic failure, Indonesia B-747 4 engine flameout due to volcanic ash, Hudson River A-320 double engine failure due to multiple bird strikes

It starts when you recognize and understand you are operating in anything but a standard (normal) situation and have sufficient experience to do something possibly non-standard about it which results in the desired outcome.
That doesn't mean the action taken isn't, wasn't, or couldn't be dangerous. Remember, the job of flying an aeroplane is essentially RISK management. That's why we employ CRM and Threat Error Management.

We shouldn't be smug or callous but an emergency is anything but a standard situation where strict adherence to an SOP can or should be applied for you simply can't write everything down. Nothing says you're going to lose that engine on takeoff right at V1.

Gino Under