Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

You all know how to read, so I'll skip the comments.

http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/sin/ ... ties.shtml
Information for Employers

What are my responsibilities related to my employees' SINs?

Key responsibilities?

Request and examine each new employee's Social Insurance Number card within three days of them starting to work.
You must view an employee's SIN card, ensuring that any employee's SIN beginning with "9" has not expired and record the name and number exactly as they appear on the card. Every person working in Canada must have a SIN.

If a new employee does not have a SIN and is eligible to work in Canada, instruct the individual to apply for a SIN at one of our Service Canada Centres... it's fast, simple and secure! If the application and identity documents are in order, individuals can get their SIN in one visit and be able to provide you with proof that they applied for it.

If you would like to confirm the SIN of a current or former employee, you need to provide your business number (issued by the Canada Revenue Agency) along with appropriate identification for the company and the employee. Please contact Service Canada's Social Insurance Registration Office at 1-800-206-7218 and select Option “3”. If calling from outside Canada, dial 1-506-548-7961 (long distance charges apply).
Note: The SIN number is used to administer government benefits under the Income Tax Act, the Canada Pension Plan Act, and the Employment Insurance Act.
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Sunwing738
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Sunwing738 »

Canjet just took in 2 aircraft from Transavia, F-GZHA and F-GZHB. Im assuming they are on dry lease?
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Sunwing738 wrote:Canjet just took in 2 aircraft from Transavia, F-GZHA and F-GZHB. Im assuming they are on dry lease?
Yes they are under CAR 203:

http://wwwapps2.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/ ... esults.asp

But they also hired a bunch of Europeans to fly them. As soon as I lay my hands on those LMOs, I will publish them on AvCanada.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Sunwing's fleet now stands at 19 aircraft. Their 10 core aircraft, 6 dry-leases from Travel Service Czech and Hungary and 3 Wet-Leases from Travel Service Czech.

With 14 pilots per airplane, they should be able to crew no more than 13 to 14 aircraft without the help of foreign pilots.

I heard that there is a group of Thomson Airline pilots that have arrived in Montreal for Sunwing Airlines. I also heard that up to now, they were not provided with work permits. YET.

Rumor has it that the Government of Canada is trying to do the right think by refusing LMO and Work Permits to a number of Foreign Pilots, but the airlines that make use of these foreign pilots is threatening the Government with Gloom and Doom if the Work Permits are not issued. They are claiming to the Government that flights will be cancelled and Canadian passengers will remain stranded unless the work permit are issued.

Will the Government fall for it or will it tell these companies that they were warned in sufficient time to get their act together and that they should have not planned their whole winter on the hiring of foreign pilots over Canadian pilots.

Let's see what they do. If the government caves in, they will hear from us, loudly. Maybe Canadian pilots will join up with BC miners to take their battle to the Hill who knows ? The sky people and the underground people have a cause in common: un-just and un-justified foreign temporary workers.
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gino Under
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gino Under »

Fear not.
Our government will do what it needs to do to 'compromise'.
Personally, I could care less if Sunwing or Canjet ended up going out of business.
As Wilbur said to Orville, "You built it. You fly it."

Gino Under :partyman:
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Rogerdodger2
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Rogerdodger2 »

Gilles,
Just wondering how you know the airlines are making threats such as the ones you've posted?

Gino,
If those airlines go out of business then there will be hundreds of out of work pilots. How does that help our industry.

1:1 is the goal not closing the doors on airlines that do employ thousands of Canadians.
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by GRK »

The hell with them I say...as Gino says, let the company fail! I'm alright Jack! They can all join a new company at the bottom of the list! Below Gino! After all this is Canada! :roll:
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Gino Under
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gino Under »

Newfoundland and Labrador's historic cod fisheries attracted local and international fishing fleets for almost five centuries before the Canadian government shut the industry down indefinitely in July 1992. By then, once-plentiful fish stocks had dwindled to near extinction and officials feared they would disappear entirely if the fisheries remained open. That didn’t stop the Europeans from fishing.

The moratorium put about 30,000 people in the province out of work and ended a way of life that had endured for generations in many communities. All the while European fishermen continued to fish inside OUR territorial waters within eye sight of our unemployed fishermen. Good for our fishermen?

What did the Government do when Canadian Airlines was faced with failure and 26,000 airline personnel were staring at unemployment? The Canadian government held a shotgun wedding (2000) with Air Canada. The animosity between the two groups is alive and well 12 years later. Good for the industry?

In the last decade, Canada 3000, Royal, Canjet (ver 1.0), Jetsgo and Skyservice have all gone out of business yet the industry survives. Good for our industry?

Should either Sunwing, Canjet or both go out of business does it really matter?

That depends.

When you check your emotions are you looking at employer or employee? I worked at three of those aforementioned airlines and I can tell you it sucks on many levels to lose a job. The number of affected employees would be far less than the 30,000 who lost jobs in 1992 when the government shut down the Nfld fisheries so it’s simply numbers management in the face of enormous criticism.

These two carriers’ Management are using deceitful practices to get what they want. Both carriers have Management who should be mindful of their responsibility to their employees. They aren’t.

Do I care if either go out of business? No.

Which SHOULD be our greater concern? Especially when we all know the aforementioned failed airlines have all been replaced.

Gino Under
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Rogerdodger2 wrote:Gilles,
Just wondering how you know the airlines are making threats such as the ones you've posted?

Gino,
If those airlines go out of business then there will be hundreds of out of work pilots. How does that help our industry.

1:1 is the goal not closing the doors on airlines that do employ thousands of Canadians.
After doing this for so many months, I've made a name for myself. You'd be surprised on the number of antennas I have: emails, Facebook messages, AvCanada private messages, phone calls, and also the traditional method, a chat in a bar over a beer.

A lot of it is like Sudoku. One piece of information on its own is useless, but three combined "useless" pieces of information and you come up with a certainty.

I for one, do not want to see Sunwing go out of business. There are good people working there. I want to see Sunwing thrive in a fair competitive market where all of the rules are applied equally by all. I want to see the Sunwing Pilots Union negotiate a fair collective agreement with management.

Above all, I do not want for anyone to be rude or unpleasant with any of the foreign pilot themselves. This battle is not against them but against the policies and methods that have allowed them to come here. Some of these guys are just like us: a pilot struggling to make a living, support their families, pay their mortgages etc. Lets all be courteous to them at all times, on the air and in person........

Gilles
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Sunwing738
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Sunwing738 »

Does anyone know whats going on with OM-TVR, hasn't flown sice November the 9th accroding to flight aware. Flew to Aruba on the 3rd, Varadero on the 4th, Nassau on the 5th and Punta Cana on the 5th & 9th of November... Suposedly the aircraft's operating license was suspended by TC or somthing to that degree?
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Sunwing738 wrote:Does anyone know whats going on with OM-TVR, hasn't flown sice November the 9th accroding to flightware. Flew to Aruba on the 3rd, Varadero on the 4th, Nassau on the 5th and Punta Cana on the 5th & 9th of November... Suposedly the aircraft's operating license was suspended by TC or somthing to that degree?
Actually it had no licence at all. It came to Canada on the Czech Travel Service FAOC when that aircraft belonged to the Slovak Travel Service, a different company. It went back to Slovakia on the 9th.
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Sunwing738 »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Sunwing738 wrote:Does anyone know whats going on with OM-TVR, hasn't flown sice November the 9th accroding to flightware. Flew to Aruba on the 3rd, Varadero on the 4th, Nassau on the 5th and Punta Cana on the 5th & 9th of November... Suposedly the aircraft's operating license was suspended by TC or somthing to that degree?
Actually it had no licence at all. It came to Canada on the Czech Travel Service FAOC when that aircraft belonged to the Slovak Travel Service, a different company. It went back to Slovakia on the 9th.
Ok, thanks for the update! Any word if Travel Service is sending over another aircraft to replace TVR?
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

It was replaced the very same day with OK-TVM I think.
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Sunwing738 »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:It was replaced the very same day with OK-TVM I think.
Awesome! Thanks!
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

I get all sorts of contradictory information about foreign pilots. I wish I could make sense of it all and arrive at some concrete conclusions but I am unable to do so so far.

I was told that:

1) Air Berlin pilots were denied work permits to fly on contract for Sunwing
2) Contract pilots for Canjet were provided with work permits and are in Canada and Florida for training but are not yet flying Canjet aircraft.
3) Travel Service pilots are having a hard time getting work permits.
4) Thomson Airways pilots on contract to Sunwing have arrived and do not yet have work permits but are training at CAE in Montreal.
5) Some European pilots who had arrived in Canada returned to Europe for lack of work permit.

I also heard that Sunwing is warning Government of Canada civil servants who are trying to do their job, of impending disaster if the foreign pilots are not provided with work permits. I hope that they do not fall for it. We have been warning the whole country that what Sunwing was doing to import all these pilots was not Kosher and that they should stop and desist. They had all this time to hire and train locals. But instead of hiring and training Canadians, they spent their summer months recruiting foreign pilots in Europe thinking it would be business as usual.

This is just the beginning of their problems if they don't mend their ways.

Yet Sunwing has a lot going for them. They don't need all these shams to be competitive. They just need them to be greedy.

They have a good sales network
They use an aircraft which is more more adapted at catering to the sun destinations than thoseAT wide bodies, which allows them to provide service to a bunch of smaller towns at low cost.
Their cost per seat mile is very low
Their aircraft swapping method with European airlines is brilliant

But that Foreign pilots B/S must STOP, except under a real reciprocal agreement overseen and controlled by the Government of Canada that provides for equal employment for Canadian pilots overseas.
Same goes for those wet leases.

And the foreign pilots that do come to fly Sunwing controlled aircraft under a reciprocal agreement MUST be EMPLOYEES of Sunwing, meaning declared employees to the CRA with a SIN and who pay all deductions that I do as an Air Transat pilot, up to and including Union Dues to SUNPAC, the Sunwing's pilot Union (CAW) while they are in Canada.

If Sunwing wants to be considered a fair competitor like Westjet and Air Canada, it MUST abide by these rules and stop trying to cheat in every way it can.

If anyone has reliable information on how the Foreign pilot issue is really progressing, please write so here, or better yet write to me directly.

Discretion is assured.

Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by RogerCheckCopy »

After the recent CTA ruling couldn't Sunwing technically shut down the airline and wet lease all required aircraft needed to provide lift for their customers? I think people tend to loose sight of the fact that Sunwing is not an airline. They only obtained an AOC so they could control te quality of customer service. It will be interesting to see what they will do if unable to get the required work permits for the pilots they obviously had counted on utilizing this winter.
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by mbav8r »

Hi Gilles, I truly applaud your efforts for pilots in Canada. Not official but, paraphrasing what I heard yesterday, the government has admitted to ALPA that they didn't intend on using foreign workers for professional jobs, it's intent was for jobs that Canadians don't want. It sounds like there may be some trouble on the horizon for Sunwings business practices.
Please keep your efforts going, it is truly appreciated.
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by gonnabeapilot »

I can't say that it's reliable information but the latest buzz around the crew rooms is this....

Air Berlin/TUIfly: I haven't heard anything regarding their work permits... Their names do appear on November rosters however the flights are not until the end of the month. If Canadian crews start to be called out to cover this flying, we will have an answer. My personal opinion is that if the Germans are denied their work permits, there will be no love lost as none of the German airlines have ever permitted Canadian pilots to fly for them overseas and most of the German pilots take offence to the idea of it.

Thomson: Half of the Thomson pilots have completed their simulator training in Montreal and are now in their assigned bases for the winter but are still awaiting work permits so that they can begin line indoc. The other half of the Thomson pilots are currently completing their simulator training in Montreal and are awaiting work permits. Those who support a true 1:1 reciprocal agreement shoud be encouraging the Canadian government to grant work permits to the Thomson pilots. Thomson and the various companies that now make up Thomson (Air 2000 and First Choice) has been the greatest contributor to employing Canadian pilots overseas under reciprocal agreements. Speaking to the Thomson pilots, they are already hearing rumblings that if the the work permits are not granted for their pilots this winter, Thomson will begin to look at other options to cover their flying next summer. This would be tragic as the latest we have heard is that Thomson wanted 5 Canadian aircraft for their operations next summer so denying their work permits could mean 70 Canadian pilots out on the street next summer.

Travel Service: Not too sure where things stand with Travel Service and their work permits. TVS is contributing the largest number of pilots to Sunwing's winter operation. There are already a large number of TVS pilots who have received work permits and are currently here flying the line. Not too sure how many are left to come or how many are still awaiting work permits. Like Thomson, Travel Service has always been willing to employ Canadian pilots overseas to support their European operations since their agreement with Sunwing began. Unfortunately, the ratio between TVS pilots in Canada and Sunwing pilots in Europe has became stupidly lop-sided over the years so perhaps limiting some of the work permits for TVS pilots isn't such a bad thing.

Hope that helps shed some light on the subject. To me it seems that the government is trying to make things difficult enough for Sunwing that it sends a warning shot across the bow, but not so difficult that it paralyzes the airline's operations this winter. Essentially I think the government is starting to play politics and I would like to offer a word of warning to those that have been involved in the campaign against foreign pilots. If the government is truly starting to play politics, they will do so as a numbers game because the way a politician will approach the issue is that a pilot is a pilot and denying a work permit to one is as good as denying a work permit to another one. It is up to those aviation professionals who have positioned themselves as the points of contact on this file to educate the government that no, a pilot is not a pilot and if they want to deny work permits, they better be careful about which airlines they target.

If this battle is truly about a 1:1 agreement and jobs for ALL Canadian pilots and not just protecting jobs of Air Transat pilots, the government should be encouraged to grant the work permits for the Thomson pilots quickly. The agreement between Sunwing/Thomson has been the closest to 1:1 out of all the airlines and is essentially the perfect example of what people on here claim their fighting towards. If the rumours are true and Thomson follows through with their threat to cancel their agreement with Sunwing, there could be 70 Canadian Sunwing pilots joining the laid-off Transat pilots out on the street come May. How that would help advance the interests of Candian pilots is beyond me.... There are many people who should be credited for fighting hard on this issue, but it is now time to fight smart. There very well could be a large number of Canadian jobs at stake.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

gonnabeapilot wrote:The other half of the Thomson pilots are currently completing their simulator training in Montreal and are awaiting work permits. Those who support a true 1:1 reciprocal agreement shoud be encouraging the Canadian government to grant work permits to the Thomson pilots. Thomson and the various companies that now make up Thomson (Air 2000 and First Choice) has been the greatest contributor to employing Canadian pilots overseas under reciprocal agreements. Speaking to the Thomson pilots, they are already hearing rumblings that if the the work permits are not granted for their pilots this winter, Thomson will begin to look at other options to cover their flying next summer. This would be tragic as the latest we have heard is that Thomson wanted 5 Canadian aircraft for their operations next summer so denying their work permits could mean 70 Canadian pilots out on the street next summer.
Thank you very much for this very informative post.
Correct me if I am wrong gonnabeapilot, but my understanding is that Sunwing pilots who did go to Europe this summer to fly for Thomson etc went there as ACMI with Canadian Registered Sunwing aircraft, meaning wet-leases. This is not the same as what the Thomson pilots are doing which is to come in Canada on work permits to fly Canadian registered Sunwing Aircraft.

Why not work out a deal with the Government of Canada and with Thomson to swap the same commodity, that is ACMI for ACMI. Sunwing sends 4 aircraft to Thomson on ACMI in the summer and Thomson sends four aircraft to Sunwing on ACMI in the winter ? It would be clear, transparent, open and fair. On ACMI there is no work permits, no PPCs, no local training of pilots, no paying taxes, nothing. Its simple, straight forward.

Maybe that is precisely what the problem is with such an arrangement: it's way too transparent for the Hunters for they could only bring into Canada as many aircraft as they sent to Europe for an equal amount of time and anyone, including government of Canada employees, could easily learn how to verify compliance with just a few clicks of the mouse over the internet..... and how could Sunwing import 19 additional aircraft into Canada using such a method when it only has 10 aircraft to begin with.....?

This explains why they have the business model that they do.

Two other people sent me private messages on AvCanada but then deleted them right away before I got a chance read them. Too bad. I am really curious as to what they had to say.
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Takeoff OK »

gonnabeapilot wrote:I can't say that it's reliable information but the latest buzz around the crew rooms is this....

Air Berlin/TUIfly: ...My personal opinion is that if the Germans are denied their work permits, there will be no love lost as none of the German airlines have ever permitted Canadian pilots to fly for them overseas and most of the German pilots take offence to the idea of it.
This is not surprising at all. You cannot fly for a German airline unless you are a German citizen. Even Eurozone pilots are blocked from German flying unless they are actually German citizens. Germany protects its own. Why don't we?
gonnabeapilot wrote: Thomson: Those who support a true 1:1 reciprocal agreement shoud be encouraging the Canadian government to grant work permits to the Thomson pilots...
That's great and all if you are saying that there is true reciprocity on equal terms both directions, but I doubt it.
gonnabeapilot wrote: Travel Service: ...Like Thomson, Travel Service has always been willing to employ Canadian pilots overseas to support their European operations since their agreement with Sunwing began. Unfortunately, the ratio between TVS pilots in Canada and Sunwing pilots in Europe has became stupidly lop-sided over the years so perhaps limiting some of the work permits for TVS pilots isn't such a bad thing.
If it's not true 1:1, then @#$! 'em. No compromizes.
gonnabeapilot wrote: If this battle is truly about a 1:1 agreement and jobs for ALL Canadian pilots and not just protecting jobs of Air Transat pilots, the government should be encouraged to grant the work permits for the Thomson pilots quickly. The agreement between Sunwing/Thomson has been the closest to 1:1 out of all the airlines and is essentially the perfect example of what people on here claim their fighting towards. If the rumours are true and Thomson follows through with their threat to cancel their agreement with Sunwing, there could be 70 Canadian Sunwing pilots joining the laid-off Transat pilots out on the street come May. How that would help advance the interests of Candian pilots is beyond me.... There are many people who should be credited for fighting hard on this issue, but it is now time to fight smart. There very well could be a large number of Canadian jobs at stake.
Again, if it's not true 1:1, then @#$! 'em. Regardless of the impact on Canadian pilots. There is no half way on this. The rules are the rules, and they need to be enforced 100%, under the spirit and intention in which they were written. Anything else is a slippery slope.
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by ea306 »

Gilles,

I did a summer flying for Thomson. We were all granted work permits even though we operated our own SWG aircraft as a wet lease. Aside from the fact that our working conditions are vastly improved by flying our own equipment, it really bothers me that you continue to persue this wet lease for wet lease thing. There are a lot of productive well paying Canadian jobs at risk if the Thomson reciprocal agreement is jeopardize by this movement.


I have always agreed with working towards a 1-1 reciprocal. Thomson has been our single most productive contributor to this end and most certainly should not be denied. Potential for more growth here at Sunwing with more Canadian jobs is directly possible because of the cooperation with Thomson.

A Canadian job for a euro job. Whether you accept the validity of my statement or not is irrelevant to what the reality will be. It is not just the 70 Canadian pilots from Sunwing that will have no employment next summer...but what about the 60 or so potentially new positions that will be lost too if the Thomson cooperation is jeopardized as a result of this crusade?

Fight for Canadians. Let not this fight for Canadians be the detriment for Canadian Pilots.

Reciprocal is reciprocal. Wet/Dry or otherwise.

Thomson pilots definitely should have their permits approved.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

ea306 wrote:Gilles,

it really bothers me that you continue to persue this wet lease for wet lease thing. There are a lot of productive well paying Canadian jobs at risk if the Thomson reciprocal agreement is jeopardize by this movement.
I will explain it for the 20th time at least.

Reciprocity is an Immigration Canada (CIC) program. CIC is supposed to keep a tally on the number of Canadian pilots going to work overseas in order to control the number of work permits it delivers to foreign pilots working in Canada. Normally, foreign pilots which obtained work permits through an LMO issued by HRSDC and Wet-Lease pilots DO NOT count in those tallies.

The reason I bring it up all the time, is that we had to educate Immigration Canada about this wet-lease/dry-lease issue and this is precisely one of the methods that was used by Sunwing to muddy the waters which allowed this issue to degenerate to the extent it did.

In Canada, wet-leases of foreign aircraft are approved by the Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA). The foreign pilots who come to Canada at the controls of a wet-lease are approved strictly by the CTA and do not need a work permit or any other paperwork from CIC. They are thus totally invisible to Immigration Canada when they are in Canada flying on behalf of Sunwing.

This is the reason :

Immigration Canada did not know about the 50 or so Portuguese pilots that flew for Sunwing in the summer of 2011.
Immigration Canada did not know about the 50 or so Portuguese pilots that flew for Sunwing in the summer of 2012.
Immigration Canada did not know about the 16 Czech pilots that flew OK-TVT last winter.
And if it wasn't for us, Immigrigration Canada would have not known this year about the 56 Czech pilots that are flying the 4 Czech Wet-Lease this winter.

Yet when your Sunwing bosses mention reciprocity to Immigration Canada, they tally the Canadian pilots that go fly Sunwing wet-leases to Europe. CIC is counting apples and Sunwing throws in Oranges in its count. You say its OK.

I cannot speak for CIC but I would have no basic objection to counting wet-lease pilots. But if we are to count them, lets count them in both directions, not just in the way it favours Sunwing.

Either one counts wet-lease pilots in both directions to arrive at a true reciprocity tally, or one does not count wet-lease pilots at all to arrive at a reciprocity tally. One cannot do it the Mr Hunter way, where one counts pilots in a way to make it look like the number of Canadian pilots going to Europe is inflated and the actual number of foreign pilots flying in Canada for Sunwing seems diminished. And that is not the only method used by Sunwing to make the number of Canadian pilots look inflated by the way.

As for your work permit to Europe. You will recall that I was incredulous when you first told me that you had a work permit when you went to fly Sunwing aircraft in Europe. As I do with all things, I did my homework and found out why:

The CTA authorization that is issued to foreign wet-leases in Canada has several conditions. One of them is that the aircraft only engage in International Travel. Your Travel Service Wet-Leases are not permitted to to a domestic flight in Canada with paying passengers.
When Air Transat does Wet-Leases to Europe, its pilots do not require a European Work Permit, which is why I was incredulous when you said you had one. It is because when Air Transat did its wet-leases, we did strictly international flights from Europe, meaning flights to outside the EU, but Sunwing also performs DOMESTIC flights inside of Europe (considered one country), which is why you guys need work permits for those flights.

I am fighting a foreign pilot issue, but Sunwing has been using this wet-lease dry-lease issue to muddy the waters and that must stop.

I spent a lot of hours understanding how its all done, and why everything is done the way it is. I know my stuff now.

You keep saying that you promote equal reciprocity, 1:1 you call it.

IT IS MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE even talk about equal reciprocity using the wet-lease method when Sunwing only has 10 aircraft and imports 21 aircraft from Europe (2 767s this summers and 19 737s this winter) .
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by DeltaHotel »

Gilles, every pilot in Canada owes you a beer!
It's gonna be quite the hangover !!!

Thank you for all your work.
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by BBGD »

First post never been at it before but I have always enjoyed the reading... Someone posted that the German's have never let any Canadian pilots fly their aircraft... This is not true as I know that CJ had 9 contract pilots flying for XL Airlines over in Germany for the summer of 2011.
Nice work Gilles, please keep it up.
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Internet is such a wonderful thing. Look at this Transport Canada document I just found:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca- ... 00-005.pdf

It's called : Staff Instruction, Subject: Foreign Licence Validation Certificate

As most of you know, the foreign pilots who come to Canada to fly Canadian Registered aircraft such as Sunwing's and Canjet's, need to obtain from Transport Canada a Foreign Licence Validation Certificate. This document is the Guidelines that TC published to help its inspectors evaluate such applications.
4.5 Considerations for Validating Foreign Licenses for Commercial Purposes

1. Licensing staff should not accept applications to validate a foreign licence for commercial purposes directly from the licence holder. Licensing staff should accept such requests only from a Canadian or foreign air operator on behalf of pilots the operator proposes to employ.

2. When an air operator requests a validation on behalf of a pilot, licensing staff must ensure that the documentation from the air operator includes a written statement confirming that the air operator has verified that the pilot is properly qualified and holds a licence and medical certificate that are valid in accordance with the law of the state that issued the licence.

3. It is not in the public interest to issue a FLVC to holders of foreign licenses when they also hold an equivalent level of Canadian licence, whether or not that licence is kept current or valid.

4.Documentation provided by the air operator must clearly identify the nature of the operation to be undertaken by the foreign pilot, where the operation will be conducted, and the length of time for which the foreign licence must be validated.

5. The submission from the air operator must clearly establish why a foreign pilot is required and why holders of Canadian licences cannot be used.

6.Care must be taken to ensure that a FLVC does not become a mechanism for operators to hire foreign pilots in favour of available, experienced and qualified holders of Canadian licences. The POI for the company is a good source of information about the availability of appropriately qualified and experienced holders of Canadian licences. If any doubt exists about the issuance of a FLVC for commercial purposes, regional licensing staff should contact the Flight Crew Licensing division of the Standards branch.

7.When validating a foreign licence for commercial purposes, it is important to restrict the validation to the specific operation and time period identified by the air operator.
I jumped for joy when I found this document. I had a smoking gun. But my joy was short lived.
Although this document only dates back to June 2009, it was amended in April 2011. The 2011 version allowed what happened in the winter of 2011-2012. All the quoted portion of the old version was deleted and replaced with that toothless single line below.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca- ... 00-005.pdf
(e) A brief explanation why the holder of a Canadian flight crew licence cannot be used.
I wonder what prompted the new version? I wrote to Transport Canada to ask them.

What happened at Sunwing during the Winter of 2011-2012 would not have been possible with the June 2009 version.
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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