english is no longer the universal language of aviation

[Eric Janson]

I find it scary on Montreal center when everyone is speaking French and I only understand 1/4 of what's going on. I can only imagine flying into somewhere where everyone is speaking mandarin.

For your information:-

ICAO approved languages for ATC

English
French
Spanish
Russian
Chinese (Mandarin)
Arabic

ATC communication is allowed in any of these languages but English language services must always be available.

I fly in and out of China regularly - you get used to it. Have not had any TCAS events. I fly to Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and Hong Kong.
I fly in and out of Paris - you get used to it. Have not had any TCAS events.

Try flying in India where ATC is done in English - that's frightening!

[avieye]

After much discussion and soul searching, we are removing the language requirements. Preference will however be given to Mandarin speaking pilots.

[Duncan Idaho]

From a job posting looking for instructors.

"Because the majority of our students will be unilingual Chinese speaking,fluency in Mandarin is an absolute necessity."

You know you are fast rising to be the next super power when you can start dictating changes to international aviation standards.

Not everyone in the world speaks english as their first language, right? I think as an instructor it would be a benefit to be able to teach flying skills in a way that's as descriptive and clear to the student as possible. CPL students especially should be taught wiith some regard for the subtleties of flying and the kind of good spidey sense that a commercial pilot ought to possess. "How to fly" is a much more complex thing to communicate to someone than your average radio call, that consists of all of what your name is and where you are.

It doesn't say anywhere that students have to be taught in English and they don't deserve to be put at a disadvantage. You have enough advantages, settle down.

[Prairie Chicken]

See, the wording there is slightly different from that t-shirt with the beaver choking the frog.

Beef, if you've got one of those, you're older than I had given you credit for!

[Liquid Charlie]

I always chuckle when I see this thread pop up -- English is not the universal language of aviation as pictured in the minds of most north americans - I would even hazard a guess that there is more native tongue spoken on the radio at any given time worldwide than english.

[Cat Driver]

I would even hazard a guess that there is more native tongue spoken on the radio at any given time worldwide than english.

By many times.....it only stands to reason that people speak their own language in their own countries.....even Quebec.

[ragbagflyer]

After much discussion and soul searching, we are removing the language requirements. Preference will however be given to Mandarin speaking pilots.

I'd say you were taking the right approach to begin with avieye. I imagine your students would be less overwhelmed learning in mandarin.

[Beefitarian]

See, the wording there is slightly different from that t-shirt with the beaver choking the frog.

Beef, if you've got one of those, you're older than I had given you credit for!

The guy that had it wasn't much older than me. I don't know where or when he got it. He wasn't a pilot and it was a while before I started flying.

[Prairie Chicken]

I'm pretty sure it was guys at the Regina Flying Club that designed & had those t-shirts printed up. That would have been in the last half of the '70's and everyone at the airport bought them, plus all itinerants. I still have mine, but it's a little tight now.

I wonder if Old Dog Flying has one in the back of his closet?

[Beefitarian]

It was for sure late 1980s possibly early 90s when he had worn it. Must have been a decent quality unit. I have not seen him in possibly a decade.
Later he became my only airsick passenger, not sure of the date on that but probably late 90s. I was just telling that story a few days ago while riding in a tail dragger myself for the second time.

[Old Dog Flying]

PC: Those bumper stickers were certainly popular..even the Minister of Transport had them on the Jetstar. I had mine on the spoiler on the back window of my car and my TCCA employers did not complain..too much.

As to where they originated from..who knows...if Norm is still around, you might ask him.

Barney

[Edo]

After much discussion and soul searching, we are removing the language requirements. Preference will however be given to Mandarin speaking pilots.

I wouldn't let this forum make business decisions for you, if your require a Mandarin speaking pilot to train pilots IN CHINA so be it.
Hell if you require a Mandarin speaking pilot to teach foreign students in a Canadian flight school so be it.

[avieye]

Thank you all for the concern, but I assure you this forum does not make business decisions for us.

On the other hand we would like to be able to post a job ad without having people take offense to it, so it is easier to just remove the offensive material from that partiuclar ad. This is the second ad we have posted on AvCanada in the last year or so, and both times people have found something offensive in our ad. We will consider the problem further the next time we need to do some hiring.

As it is we have received some very impressive resumes from some very qualified pilots, and are looking forward to some of them joining our organization.

[moocow]

On the other hand we would like to be able to post a job ad without having people take offense to it, so it is easier to just remove the offensive material from that partiuclar ad.

With the Internet, someone is bound to be offended about something. You already made it clear that your company is looking for instructors for operation in China. Just because it's aviation related doesn't mean you can't make it a requirement for applicants to be able to speak Mandarin and write in Simplified Chinese. It's no different then a company in Germany requiring applicants to be able to understand German.

[Prairie Chicken]

For the Mods & others who may not know what this side-discussion is about, there were t-shirts & bumper stickers with a cartoon characters of a beaver in a flying helmet choking a frog, with the words "English is the International Language of Aviation".

Yes they were very popular Barney, although the Minister didn't put the bumper sticker on his own JetStar. This was back in the days before French was a legal language for ATC in Canada and then-Minister Otto Lang was trying to push it thru, probably under PM PET. I'm not sure if the talented RFC instructor/cartoonist designed the image, or if it was someone else, but I'm pretty sure a blind ATC and an RFC ramp rat were part of it. Likely Norm too.

We know who won that battle. The gov't backed off; then later slipped the legislation in quietly thru a back door.

[Cat Driver]

I got mine from a Quebec 215 crew who were helping us out on a big fire in Ontario.

It was truly a classic, must have left mine in a whorehouse somewhere back in my drinking days, cause I don' t have it anymore.

[cgzro]

On the other hand we would like to be able to post a job ad without having people take offense to it, so it is easier to just remove the offensive material from that partiuclar ad

Actually I'd have taken a more hard nose response. You are 100% reasonable in your requirements. No need to back down.

[dashx]

Code: Select all

God came down to see what they did and said: "They are one people and have one language, and nothing will be withheld from them which they purpose to do." "Come, let us go down and confound their speech." And so God scattered them upon the face of the Earth, and confused their languages, so that they would not be able to return to each other, and they left off building the city, which was called Babel "because God there confounded the language of all the Earth

מגדל בבל‎ برج بابل‎

Now you know who to blame.....just in case you forgots ur bible.

But not to worry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZoWqBNg ... re=related

How does one translate horizontal stabilizer into Mandarin? Hindi?

Ah I do tend to babble.......

[cpt.sam]

"Because the majority of our students will be unilingual Chinese speaking,fluency in Mandarin is an absolute necessity."

This just means that the client speaks Mandarin, doesn't mean that you'll need to speak it over the radio.

I find it scary on Montreal center when everyone is speaking French and I only understand 1/4 of what's going on. I can only imagine flying into somewhere where everyone is speaking mandarin.

I don't see how this is a problem. If you need to know something; Centre will translate for you. I speak both English and French and have NEVER heard centre not pass on pertinent information.

Oh, sure they will.
YWK, Wabush, controlled by montreal.
A french aircraft took off out of YWK in our direction as we neared the airport. Center and french plane spoke only french.
We stated we didn't understand where the oncoming traffic was, laterally or vertically in relation to us.
So the french controller asked the french pilots, the french pilots coughed and gagged a while whilst answering the french controller, whom coughed and gagged while trying to translate the position of the french plane. ( who must have forgotten his transponder, as we had everything else on TCAS but him, possibly an honest mistake.)
Anyways, after that long gargled ordeal, they had passed us before we had their position report.
FRENCH speaking on radio in CANADA is not acceptable.
English is the language of aviation.
It is not acceptable for Chinese or German position reports in montreal, is it?

Does anyone know where in the CARs in states that french is an acceptable means of communication?

[cpt.sam]

You know you are fast rising to be the next super power when you can start dictating changes to international aviation standards.

Fly outside of N. America and you'll see that all languages are spoken on the radio. I'm in Chile right now, they speak Spanish on the radio.

Question;
Do they speak random languages until English is spoken, then revert to English?

[SMELS]

Chinese is not a language...

[pelmet]

I can guarantee you that the Chinese ab initio students from most if not all peripherally located airlines(Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore) etc learn to fly in English, write their exams in English and the airlines working language is English. The mainland would be wise to do the same.

[pelmet]

Try flying in India where ATC is done in English - that's frightening!

You mean that you have some sort of a problem with a rapid fire, very long and very accented clearance. And the controllers just never seem to figure out why so many responses are....say again.

[TeePeeCreeper]

FRENCH speaking on radio in CANADA is not acceptable.
English is the language of aviation.

It may not be acceptable to you but to many others it obviously is.
Might I suggest that if your so concerned about your safety to the extent of vocalizing it here out of all productive places to voice a grievance that you may, (yup wait for it) want to learn the very basics of Canada's other official language?
Ignorance is easy to come by, a little effort on your part may require a bit more effort....

Regards,
TPC

[Prodriver]

After listening to Air China come in and out of YVR, I would rather have them speak there native language and let ATC do there job!! Here or in ASIA.
Couple trips thru Quebec this summer and enjoyed listening to the French, never had a problem and I must say there controllers were very professional and did a great job. When you need to know they will let you know.