Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

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Rockie
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by Rockie »

bearinmind wrote:Sky regional is a plague, the people that work there are the reason that the plague is getting worse. if you were a union employee and enjoyed a career and pension earned by your union family, and then leave to work for a non union shop, you have turned you back on your union family. If you set your worth at 6 figures for the last 10 years of your career and then say your are only worth 60k, you just take a job at a decent wage from your younger pilots, you are a plague.
There used to be an outfit called Jetsgo that most experienced pilots I know (including me) flat out refused to work for even though many of them (again, including me) were unemployed at the time. We felt that MLB was lowering the bar to an unacceptable level not just in conditions of employment which were unconscionable, but more ominously in the level of safety.

As a result many younger pilots benefited greatly by skipping about eight years of normal career progression finding themselves in the left seat of an MD-87 or Fokker 100 before they were ready. Compounding that situation was the even less experienced F/O sitting beside them. This was not by any stretch an unusual crew at Jetsgo, and the lack of experience coupled with MLB's utter disregard for maintenance had us all holding our breath waiting for the inevitable smoking hole. It came very close on a number of occasions too that the public is blissfully unaware of, but no doubt Transport Canada decision makers spent many sleepless nights dreading that phone call they hoped like hell wouldn't come. Fortunately MLB drained that cash cow dry and shut it down before anybody lost their life.

The moral of this story is that anyone who starts an airline will get pilots to fly there. They may not be the right ones, but they'll get them. Experienced pilots are required especially in a new start-up, and I would rather see retired AC guys providing the initial core of experience then leaving in 3-5 years than inexperienced pilots rushed to the left seat before they are ready.

You can call them a plague if you want, but what they really are is the backbone until the place is up and running.
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yycflyguy
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by yycflyguy »

duranium wrote:
yycflyguy wrote:
duranium wrote:Considering what has been written here and elsewere, if only partially true, the current aggregate of warm and brilliant minds that comprise ACPA have nothing to whine about. In the last 6 to 7 years, you have stuck it to your elders in so many different ways that it is becoming difficult to keep track.
Ok, I'll bite. How have we "stuck it to our elders"?

I bet my list of how the junior/new hire pilots have suffered is more comprehensive and reprehensible. Go on, show me your list.
yycflyguy

Joined Feb 24, 2004 AND 2309 posts, up to today, and you STILL cannot answer your own question. Or your attention span is very, very short or your memory of what you have read is very deficient, to say the least. If you are on a fishing expedition, here is not the place to drop your line. Not everyone here is or acts like an idiot.

Use your keyboard and find the answer within this forum, it is here in black and white.
Here I thought our elders were supposed to be the model of decorum and wise from their years of experience. :lol:

I guess you don't have your list so I'll present a few bullet points of how the "Juniors" have been screwed the past 6-7 years.

*Flypast60
*Stagnation of careers starting Dec 15, 2012
*Flat pay extended from 2 to 4 years for new hires
*Reduction in 4 year salary for new hires
*Loss of 15 EMJ while protecting WB flying
*Concessionary FTAs structured to extract value from RP and FOs to protect CA pay
*Concessionary FTAs structured to protect MPUs of those "senior" reps on the negotiating committee
*Reduction in lifestyle/pay and safety nets at the LCC which will be bodied in the right seat by Junior pilots
*CA in J provisions
*DC pension plans while everyone else on DBs, including other labour groups and management.

Did you have to retire before the December 15th cutoff? If not, you have nothing to complain about. It was a victory to stay past 60.

Those who are heading to SkyRegional are doing so after long, lucrative careers with AC with a substantial pension willing to do the work that ACPA previously held for around 60% of what was being paid for that position. They are responsible for the continuing downward spiral of WAWCON. It wasn't too long ago that Jazz was doing the 757 flying for TC and everyone was pissed off that their pilots were earning the same as D-8 and CRJ Captains... yes, I know that it was a status pay system where the salaries were combined and equally distributed.
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Last edited by yycflyguy on Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rockie
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by Rockie »

yycflyguy wrote:They are responsible for the continuing downward spiral of WAWCON.
Come on yycflyguy. So are you, me, 3000 other Air Canada pilots, thousands of professional pilots in this country and elsewhere, Air Canada management, airline managements everywhere, the Canadian government and finally the travelling public who doesn't want to pay for what they get.

Placing it all on senior Air Canada pilots is a bit rich don't you think?
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snowball
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by snowball »

I am still baffled at the 70k a year for captains on the EMB. Is that really what these guys make? If so I just gotta say LMFAO. I know guys that make that on 1900 and some even on KA200s not to mention FOs on 320s and 37s that make quit a bit more than that. Give your head a shake and take long look in the dignity mirror.
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3 holer
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by 3 holer »

Snowball:

Ok so all those pilots recently laid off from First Air and Transat should just sit back and collect their $485/week on UI because thats a way better option than being gainfully employed. While the wages at sky are nothing to brag about don't preach from the pulpit just because you are sitting pretty and think you have the world by the tail. I know some of these guys who have been side swiped by these layoffs and it is not a fun place to be especially during this time of year. Many have young families where they were the main source of income for their household. If you feel that the pay is so pathetic that these pilots on layoff should snub their nose at these positions then I have a list of guys who will be more than happy to forward their mortgage payments and other monthly living expenses to you for payment. It's easy to be sitting pretty in a nice position making good $$ and lecturing others about the finer points of their career choices but just remember any of us could find ourselves in the same position some of these recently unemployed guys are and I bet your tune on the matter would be different. If your theory was taken to its logical conclusion then every b1900 captain, king air captain, jazz pilot with more than two years of service should not have even applied let alone accepted an fo position at westjet or AC. Or maybe you were one of these fellows that made a sacrifice to take their career to the next level and feel you were justifed because it was you. But admitting that would be like calling oneself a hypocrit which is against human nature. I always said, don't through stones in glass houses especially in the aviation industry.
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yycflyguy
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by yycflyguy »

Rockie wrote:
yycflyguy wrote:They are responsible for the continuing downward spiral of WAWCON.
Come on yycflyguy. So are you, me, 3000 other Air Canada pilots, thousands of professional pilots in this country and elsewhere, Air Canada management, airline managements everywhere, the Canadian government and finally the travelling public who doesn't want to pay for what they get.

Placing it all on senior Air Canada pilots is a bit rich don't you think?
Not placing all the blame on them. I'm placing it on the pilots who are taking SkyRegional jobs after a lucrative career, generous DB pension just for shitz-n-giggles. By taking a position that knowingly pays 60% of what it pays today purely for the "love of flying" then yes, they are contributing to the continuing degradation of WAWCON. They enable an employer to whipsaw another pilot group by accepting the terms.

Are they part of the problem or solution for aviation in Canada? I say it's problematic.

Geezus, doesn't anybody fish in their retirement anymore?

I forgot probably the most important point on my list how "Junior's" have been screwed over:

*DC pension plan while everyone else enjoys a DB pension*

To make this thread even more childish, I will point out that it was Daranium who claimed that Junior pilots have been screwing over Senior pilots. Still waiting for his justification. Other than ad hominem attacks. So HE STARTED IT MOMMY :lol:
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Rockie
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by Rockie »

yycflyguy wrote: They are responsible for the continuing downward spiral of WAWCON.
yycflyguy wrote:Not placing all the blame on them.
Oh...well I'm glad you cleared that up.

Lots of people are responsible besides retired Air Canada pilots whether or not they're flying for SkyRegional. Personally I can't find fault in what they're doing because I don't know the personal reason any of them have for doing it. Neither does anybody else.
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morefun
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by morefun »

What are you guys bitching about...you wouldn't let the senior pilots stay beyond 60 to make $200,000...now you're whinning like hurt little puppies that they are now working for $70,000? Who really gives a shit, I'm not going to bad mouth a guy because he wants to fly not that I would for peanuts but each to their own. Hypocritical and Air Canada pilot are pretty much one and the same ( expect for a very few ).
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snowball
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by snowball »

3 holer wrote:Snowball:

Ok so all those pilots recently laid off from First Air and Transat should just sit back and collect their $485/week on UI because thats a way better option than being gainfully employed. While the wages at sky are nothing to brag about don't preach from the pulpit just because you are sitting pretty and think you have the world by the tail. I know some of these guys who have been side swiped by these layoffs and it is not a fun place to be especially during this time of year. Many have young families where they were the main source of income for their household. If you feel that the pay is so pathetic that these pilots on layoff should snub their nose at these positions then I have a list of guys who will be more than happy to forward their mortgage payments and other monthly living expenses to you for payment. It's easy to be sitting pretty in a nice position making good $$ and lecturing others about the finer points of their career choices but just remember any of us could find ourselves in the same position some of these recently unemployed guys are and I bet your tune on the matter would be different. If your theory was taken to its logical conclusion then every b1900 captain, king air captain, jazz pilot with more than two years of service should not have even applied let alone accepted an fo position at westjet or AC. Or maybe you were one of these fellows that made a sacrifice to take their career to the next level and feel you were justifed because it was you. But admitting that would be like calling oneself a hypocrit which is against human nature. I always said, don't through stones in glass houses especially in the aviation industry.
Sorry but I just can't agree with you. I have been laid off, wife and kids. During this time of layoff I was offered 4 jobs within 7 to 8 months of being on EI. I refused all of them due to crappy pay and working conditions. So sorry, I can feel the pain of being laid off but I cant agree with making this industry worse for us pilots. You want to get rid of a stray dog, you don't keep on feeding him. Simple as that. Short term pain (get another job outside of aviation if you have to say no to shitty paying jobs) for the long term gain (our careers). When there is strength in numbers you can accomplish lots. I think Gilles is starting that trend.
But what you think is right is to accept the 70k a year EMB captain, so in a few years the company knows they can fetch 60k a year captains, then 50k a year, then 40k. So when does it stop. Please tell me. I say make it stop now. You don't agree. Sometimes pilots just have to get some f##king balls and say enough is enough.
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Norwegianwood
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by Norwegianwood »

snowball wrote:
3 holer wrote: I say make it stop now. You don't agree. Sometimes pilots just have to get some f##king balls and say enough is enough.
This has been an on-going problem since - let me see - even Orville and Wilbur wanted to be first to get at the controls and they actually did it for nothing!!
Good luck with banding a group of A types together to fight the lawyers and accountants who only look after themselves.......
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ikarus
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by ikarus »

Norwegianwood wrote:
snowball wrote:
3 holer wrote: I say make it stop now. You don't agree. Sometimes pilots just have to get some f##king balls and say enough is enough.
This has been an on-going problem since - let me see - even Orville and Wilbur wanted to be first to get at the controls and they actually did it for nothing!!
Good luck with banding a group of A types together to fight the lawyers and accountants who only look after themselves.......
Not really man....check the history a bit and you will see that things were rough in the 1920s up until mid 50s. But then industry improved and unions fought hard to restore some dignity and respectable compensation for airline pilots. That,s why 70s up until 90s were the golden years for many airline pilots. Now we are on the downward trend again unfortunately - but it does not has to get worse if we all try hard and stand together. Taking crappy paying jobs like flying Embraers at Sky is definitively a negative example. The Q400 pay there was pushing it already...the Emb is just too much to swallow.

The layoff example '3 holer' provided doesn't really justify it either my friend. By taking these low paying positions you are potentially setting up current guys at Ac, jazz, wj for layoffs and Ei checks few years from now....it,s a downward trend alright..... You just have to be honest with yourself when you look hard in the mirror..
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Dh8Classic
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by Dh8Classic »

snowball wrote: Sorry but I just can't agree with you. I have been laid off, wife and kids. During this time of layoff I was offered 4 jobs within 7 to 8 months of being on EI. I refused all of them due to crappy pay and working conditions.
Turned down four jobs and for some reason the working people are supposed to continue to pay your EI. Fortunately, the rules are slowly being changed. Take a job offer.
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Mig29
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by Mig29 »

Dh8Classic wrote:
snowball wrote: Sorry but I just can't agree with you. I have been laid off, wife and kids. During this time of layoff I was offered 4 jobs within 7 to 8 months of being on EI. I refused all of them due to crappy pay and working conditions.
Turned down four jobs and for some reason the working people are supposed to continue to pay your EI. Fortunately, the rules are slowly being changed. Take a job offer.
How do you assume that he didn't work non-flying jobs. Maybe he just refused to accept cheap flying positions.
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mbav8r
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by mbav8r »

First of all Dclassic, you don't know how many years snowball paid into EI, it's not like he was saying, I'm a float pilot who makes 60,000 during summer and then collects EI for the winter, every winter. He's saying he was laid off and turned down crappy job offers. Secondly, you can turn down offers if they are too far away from where you live, as an example. I don't believe you can trun down anything in a certain radius, in your field of work, but that's another topic.
I to was on EI at one point and after a few offers that were less than desirable, I decided to get my class 1 licence, and drove a truck for 3 years until a better offer came along. Sure, I could have taken the citation V/X job for crappy pay and on call 27 days a month, don't worry though I would've only worked 15, at least thats what he told me. In the end, I landed a navajo job that paid over 60,000, no lie over 60 grand and I didn't have to move.
Now I won't claim I'm not a hyprocrit, afterall I whored myself out for the first 2 years at the airline level, but my choice was to keep working for shithead operators who push everything from wx to snags or to get out of flying altogether, which I considered very seriously. In the end I figured I'd give the airlines a go and decide from there.
To the topic at hand, these retired AC guys after decades at the top, they must of said to themselves, "the pay sucks but FU&* it, I'm not done screwing over these young folk yet!"
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TheStig
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by TheStig »

morefun wrote:What are you guys bitching about...you wouldn't let the senior pilots stay beyond 60 to make $200,000...now you're whinning like hurt little puppies that they are now working for $70,000? Who really gives a shit, I'm not going to bad mouth a guy because he wants to fly not that I would for peanuts but each to their own. Hypocritical and Air Canada pilot are pretty much one and the same ( expect for a very few ).
I don't think that many Air Canada pilots are complaining here. Several that don't fly at AC have, but Rockie, 777Long Haul, and YYCFLYGUY haven't made any such comments.
Gravol wrote: I obviously misunderstood. Thanks for clarifying! So in two weeks time, they earn their 5 year extension? Same thing @ sky regional no?
There isn't a 5 year extension, there is simply no mandatory retirement at Air Canada. A pilot who turns 60 before Dec 15th leaves, one who turns 60 after that date stays until they choose to retire. I don't know what Sky Regionals rules are.
777longhaul wrote: AGEISM still alive and doing very well at AC.

Ageism, or age discrimination is stereotyping and discriminating against individuals or groups because of their age. It is a set of beliefs, attitudes, norms, and ...
Can you give an example?
FICU wrote:
TheStig wrote:I've heard that two retired EMJ Captains are now headed to Sky Regional (but even that could be a rumour?), both had fairly short careers at AC after joining in their 40's and both are class acts who would be an asset to any organization.
So why are they accepting such pitiful wages?
You'd have to ask them?
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Rockie
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by Rockie »

FICU wrote:
TheStig wrote:I've heard that two retired EMJ Captains are now headed to Sky Regional (but even that could be a rumour?), both had fairly short careers at AC after joining in their 40's and both are class acts who would be an asset to any organization.
So why are they accepting such pitiful wages?
At least one is in management and knowing what I do about the individual every single pilot over there, young and old, is better off for it. Plus a clue to your question might be that they were both hired in their 40's and as such did not make anywhere close to $200K at Air Canada, and do not enjoy the $130K pension everybody thinks they have.
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mbav8r
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by mbav8r »

If he is in management, why is he leaving? Oh, never mind, I know why. Sky Regional isn't really a company, it's a division of AC with a different name and none of those pesky union types. It's AC airplanes, AC flying, AC resources all under another AOC. That "Calvin" guy sure is a smart cookie.
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Rockie
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by Rockie »

mbav8r wrote:If he is in management, why is he leaving?
He left because of an archaic rule that is no longer in place, he was forced out of his existing job at age 60.
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mbav8r
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by mbav8r »

Why would that rule apply to management?
If you are management, you are not a current union member working under the union contract or at least that's how it is at Jazz.
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Rockie
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by Rockie »

It applied to all pilots, but he was an EMJ check pilot at Air Canada, not management. He is management at SkyRegional if what I hear is true, which in case I wasn't clear...is a good thing for them.
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by Old fella »

Rockie wrote:
FICU wrote:
TheStig wrote:I've heard that two retired EMJ Captains are now headed to Sky Regional (but even that could be a rumour?), both had fairly short careers at AC after joining in their 40's and both are class acts who would be an asset to any organization.
So why are they accepting such pitiful wages?
At least one is in management and knowing what I do about the individual every single pilot over there, young and old, is better off for it. Plus a clue to your question might be that they were both hired in their 40's and as such did not make anywhere close to $200K at Air Canada, and do not enjoy the $130K
pension everybody thinks they have.
Jeez......... if a person joined your company at 40 yrs of age and had to go at 60.......... then said individual gets 40% of his/her pension - that's it!! Now, if that person wants/needs to supplement their income/pension by going to another carrier/airline, I have a lot of difficulty understanding why this is such an issue(on this board). I am willing to bet any AC person collecting a $100K+ pension isn't gonna get on a Q400 and start blasting in and out of YTZ,YOW,YHZ,YYT etc, etc after a career on heavy iron - then again if such person is paying off 2 ex-wives, a house and 4 maxed out credit cards, anything is probable.............
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by tailgunner »

Rockie,
Said individual was hired in his 40's because he CHOSE to stay in the military. He CHOSE to not come to AC when his other classmates did. He took the higher paying military income and the gauranteed pension. There are tradeoffs with each decision in life. He was/is trying to play the woe is me card, but he CHOSE his career path.
Cheers.
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by flyer 1492 »

So in other words the said individual will have TWO pensions and work for a scab work force.
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bearinmind
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by bearinmind »

Snowball, sorry you were layed off. It does happen in this industry, wife and kids, tough. What we are saying is dont support a non union shop when the unions are trying to making the working conditions better prevent putting more people in your shoes. When we get desperate the companies prey on us individualy. The people at SKR are looking for a short cut or a happy ending. they want to get the fast track to 70k with low time or just love to fly (cant blame them, me too) and want to make a few bucks on the side after their career is finished. It seems harmless, until you see the 150 guys that ride the bottom of the senority list working every weekend, every christmas and struggling to keep their families together, and can only get low pay jobs.

If we stand together and refuse to support groups like Sky regional pilots that are there to divide us, you and guys like Obee will have a decent career here in Canada when you want it. lets be honest, we are a small part of the cost, but the easiest to manipulate. Lets push back, dont support, train or hire a sky regional plot.

For you sky pilots, get with the program, get a union, and get your working conditions to industry standard or watch your career die.
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Re: Hypocritical Pilots???? Say it ain't so....

Post by Cat Driver »

For you sky pilots, get with the program, get a union, and get your working conditions to industry standard or watch your career die.
My career was quite successful and I never had a union behind me, there are other flying jobs besides airlines.

A fact of life is big companies will almost always pay as little as possible to their employees.
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