Snow Lake Crash Nov18 (Speculation Thread)

[Doc]

Everybody frowns on "cowboys". The trick is knowing when to "cowboy", and when not to. Having the ability to "cowboy" can safe your bacon. Not advocating being a full time "cowboy" though. Now, where did I leave those damn spurs?

[GyvAir]

Article somewhat related to this thread - at least before it was railroaded by someone blowing variable winds up everyone's tail yet again:

http://www.avweb.com/news/redundant/sea ... 809-1.html

[PilotDAR]

When the lift/power and speed were correct the airplane lifted off the water

Yes!

I was playing around with the little flying boat one afternoon ad few years back. 10 knot wind, but just a light ripple on the water. I found a power setting (19"MP) at which I could fly along in [water] effect, and all was in equilibrium. If I tried to climb away the plane slowed, and settled down to a landing without my touching the power. Then, still without my touching the power, I could accelerate on the step, and get airborne, and stay in [water] effect again. I repeated this many times without ever touching the power. It was a lesson in speed management by drag control alone, and with no attention whatever to the ASI.

I don't think that plane cared what the airspeed was, as much as all things being in balance for the phase of flight. If one thing was out of balance, the plane would accelerate/climb or decelerate/descend until it came back into balance.

I believe that a competent pilot should have enough sense of acceleration, deceleration, or none, while on the surface, without pausing to fixate on the ASI, to be confident that things are "normal" for that aircraft, and the next intended phase of flight can be safely achieved.

[Cat Driver]

I believe that a competent pilot should have enough sense of acceleration, deceleration, or none, while on the surface, without pausing to fixate on the ASI, to be confident that things are "normal" for that aircraft, and the next intended phase of flight can be safely achieved.

Thanks PilotDar for your input in this very important subject.

When will the training industry get back to teaching people how to fly and understand what is happening in these very critical phases of flight?

Unfortunately most people here will not post their thoughts on these subjects but they do send me PM's about the abysmal lack of airmanship in the industry these days.

Fortunately in most cases these pilots are flying in a rigidly structured environment and the aircraft they are flying are smart aircraft. So they stumble through their days oblivious to what is really going on.

Will be in Ontario next spring with the motor home and plan on seeing you then...... E.

[Siddley Hawker]

Just for the helluvit if your airplane is equipped with a Safe Flight speed control system, do a circuit on the speed control without using the ASI as a reference. Lots of fun.

[Canoehead]

Pretty sure I recall doing circuits with the ASI all covered up, both as a trainee and a trainer...

[buzzinaround]

I remember during my flight training with an instructor we found the pitot was plugged after take off. Of course the Instructor not comfortable me flying landed to have it checked. Some bowlegged clownboy came from the shop, suck and blew into the pitot tube till it looked like he was having fun, and said "Ok, ready to go". So I did, alone and the ASI never did work the entire flight, which was great because I learned alot, on my own.

[CFR]

I remember during my flight training with an instructor we found the pitot was plugged after take off. Of course the Instructor not comfortable me flying landed to have it checked. Some bowlegged clownboy came from the shop, suck and blew into the pitot tube till it looked like he was having fun, and said "Ok, ready to go". So I did, alone and the ASI never did work the entire flight, which was great because I learned alot, on my own.

Just for fun you could have turned on pitot heat! How do you explain burning your lips?

[PilotDAR]

suck and blew into the pitot tube

I'm not aware of any procedure involving sucking and blowing for a fully assembled pitot static system. If a pressure or vacuum has been applied to a pitot tube or static port, other than with a pitot static tester, the instruments which were connected to the system should be removed and calibrated. If "suck/blow" is to be applied to a pitot or static, all instruments would be disconnected first as a proper maintenance activity. I have seen ASI's which were literally blown apart inside by someone doing this - so yeah, it's not going to work afterward, or until a big bill is paid...

And then, there is this.....

[Siddley Hawker]

Did that little vane outboard of that contraption worked as advertised.

[pelmet]

If a pressure or vacuum has been applied to a pitot tube or static port, other than with a pitot static tester, the instruments which were connected to the system should be removed and calibrated.

I wouldn't say that. One time I came back to a small Cessna and there were hundreds of very small bugs on it. Just to make sure the pitot wasn't blocked, I got someone to look at the ASI while I blew gently into the pitot tube. The key is to do it gently.

[PilotDAR]

As is the case with many things in flying, "gently" is good. In many cases, "gently" can be perfect, and in such a case, might meet the intent of a pitot static tester. It is important to remind readers that there are proper maintenance practices, and using a different method can cause damage. That does not mean that the different method won't work, you're just taking the chance, and thus the responsibility.

Being given a plane to fly, with the previous pilot telling me that he "blew into the pitot tube" would unease me in a similar way to that pilot telling me he that he rolled it. It might be perfectly fine, but I would want to be reassured to know that things were done properly.

[lilflyboy262]

I would never do it myself... But.. Wouldn't blowing on it be ok as it moves forward through the air at a great rate of knots.

Sucking on the other hand I can see being bad.

Although I see this thread is starting to drift...

[Lost Lake]

Although I see this thread is starting to drift...

Ya, from a sad plane crash to sucking on pitot tubes...

[howard40]

Better to get a few feet of rubber hose that fits over the pitot tube, and start rolling it up slowly to get an airspeed indicator response , saves those embarrassing pictures circulating of folks blowing into pitots.

[Doc]

This thread has just wandered off into fantasy land. Relevance, people? Relevance?

[PilotDAR]

Yes, wandering.... Though I believe that possible relevance is the need for a pilot to maintain flying speed, when flying is intended. Now, I have no idea if that basic principle of flight is relevant to that accident which began the thread - that [possible] link was someone else.

But it is important for pilots to be reminded they they are responsible for maintaining flying speed for the phase of flight. Many things can interfere with doing this, and pilots should be aware of these, and have a plan - there were (or sure should have been) trained.

Wandering this thread seemed as good a place as any to bring up that reminder.....

[trey kule]

But it is important for pilots to be reminded they they are responsible for maintaining flying speed for the phase of flight

Thanks Mom

I never would have thought of that myself without your reminder....It seems nowadays everyone is joining in the nanny state philosophy.. I am surprised you did not use a CARs quote to emphasize this rather basic fact...

BTW...why is it so important to remind pilots of this? Do they not remember to maintain safe or proper flying speeds if they are not reminded?`Is it something they would simply not consider themselves "responsable" for if not for this important reminder?
I really would like to know as I see post after post with "important reminders" that we should fly correctly.....
I see the cockpit conversation now......

PF. Climb will be at 140kts, and.......
PNF. Wait wait...CRM taught me I must speak up to remind you that you are responsable for selecting and then maintaining the proper airspeed for the phase of flight.
PF. Thank you for the important reminder. I would not have attempted to try and actually fly at 140 kts without it, and we could well have found ourselves trying to climb at 50 kts...Your important reminder has made us so much safer and validated my responsabilities. I shall now affirm to own those responsabilites by stating we will climb at 140 kts or maintain a safe airspeed.
Well done PNF.

.......just funning with you....

[PilotDAR]

Yeah, I know.... It's similar to the "Notice" on the Island ferry, reminding drivers that it is their sole responsibility to steer their car while disembarking. Yeah. But, there is the occasional person who seems to need to be reminded of such things - I just don't know who these people are! The rest of us are all set!

[SeptRepair]

Not the first time a contaminated heavy Caravan stalled on flap retraction. Very sad.

You would make a comment like that based on exactly WHAT? Now, we have it all iced up, and heavy? I'm going out on a limb here to state I have MORE Caravan time than you do, stef. Have you ever actually even been to an airport?
.....

Love to have some idea as the the total experience level of stef...

Based on a delay due to freezing fog with seven drillers and gear and fuel to Winnipeg. Pure speculation. Guess we'll have to wait to see what TSB comes up with.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 2C0154.asp

Going back and reading the speculation, Stef looks like you had some very good insight.

[stef]

Thanks. A moment of clarity.

[cncpc]

But it is important for pilots to be reminded they they are responsible for maintaining flying speed for the phase of flight

Thanks Mom

I never would have thought of that myself without your reminder....It seems nowadays everyone is joining in the nanny state philosophy.. I am surprised you did not use a CARs quote to emphasize this rather basic fact...

BTW...why is it so important to remind pilots of this? Do they not remember to maintain safe or proper flying speeds if they are not reminded?`Is it something they would simply not consider themselves "responsable" for if not for this important reminder?
I really would like to know as I see post after post with "important reminders" that we should fly correctly.....
I see the cockpit conversation now......

PF. Climb will be at 140kts, and.......
PNF. Wait wait...CRM taught me I must speak up to remind you that you are responsable for selecting and then maintaining the proper airspeed for the phase of flight.
PF. Thank you for the important reminder. I would not have attempted to try and actually fly at 140 kts without it, and we could well have found ourselves trying to climb at 50 kts...Your important reminder has made us so much safer and validated my responsabilities. I shall now affirm to own those responsabilites by stating we will climb at 140 kts or maintain a safe airspeed.
Well done PNF.

.......just funning with you....

"Thanks Mom"

Hahaha. A good illustration of how vast the differences are between pilots on this forum.

[oldncold]

that nov 2012 week was a bad> one first the pa-46 500t in northern alberta non instrument rated pilot, then this one.

The thing that gets me :it s one thing to have a bad day (we have all had them ) but to purposely fly imc in a commercial operation that is neither approved nor you trained n rated is beyond my understanding! re wx reports // talked to a few folks in that neck of the woods n they said they were delaying departures for skeds out of/pas n grace lake that day, n that was 2crew fully ifr certified> so nxt ? so clearly operational control/pilot error /pdm etc so what is status of legal actions against estate of pilot that should be sobering reminder for all .

[oldncold]

n so before flaming away have 2500 van time> been in lots ice in a van had a co jo reach for flaps 20 on 1mile final in moderate mixed/severe icing ( non standard sop> slapped his hand hard RE TAIL PLANE ICING was starting to get buzz on yoke n had done cessna video on icing 208 n seen twin otter for the first time ) still around to tell the tale, though he did not speak to me for a week. always carried 10 gallons off deice fluid with heater didnt give a crap if unit was approved . just knew ice n van dont mix with out respect .

[pdw]

An example where the attention to research (warning) pays off big.

A moment of Clarity

Was it the flap extension problem in the travel from 10-20 degrees or while moving though the positions between 0 and 10 deg ?

Better to leave alone and not find out, as in oldncold's experience.

For 'iced on approach' the official advice eventually came around 'if you're ever in a situation like that' to keep up a high / 120mph flap-less airspeed (with ice that accreted at cruise speed). For a take-off, that kind of speed isn't even reasonable and that residual ice with any additional is immediately ground-ice when stationary; the implementing of "clean concept" was the only reliable defense against that uncertainty of reaching/maintaining adequate speed for any amount or coarseness and all the other variables that affect take-off distance/speed and the climb-rate after rotation.