Encore WACON released and surprise, it sucks

[Bede]

Well since no one else will do it, and I like a good fight, I'll play devil's advocate and defend the WAWCON at WJE.

Believe it or not, those wages are 90% of the first year Jazz wages. Sure there isn't a pay scale but there will be like there is at any company once pilots start hitting higher YOS. It's all fine and dandy to compare mean Jazz wages to these ones but keep in mind, it takes you 10 years to make captain at Jazz and much less at WJE (for now anyways). And up until the last contract, both AC and Jazz paid their new hires less than what WJE is offering new hires. Let's face it: if you're a 2500 pilot you will do far better coming to WJE than to Jazz. The 70hrs per month is minimum guarantee, not what will actually be flown. Add in profit sharing and ESP and the T4 income will be higher than any other first year -8 skipper in the country. Of course there is no pension, so there's a plus for Jazz. Sure the average Jazz captain earns more, but he's 50 years old and has been at Jazz for 15 years.

WJ has the highest paid narrow body pilots in this country. I have no doubt that we are the most desired job as well. WJE is as close as a sure thing to get on with WJ. No one wants to leave their lucrative 703 job to sit RS for poor money, but everyone (including EVERY Air Canada and WestJet pilot) had to do it.

I always find it interesting how the biggest complainers about wages are those that work for competing companies. Every pilot group has the right to accept terms and conditions which they feel will benefit them the greatest. Ask for too much and you won't get the flying. Jazz pilots accepted an incredibly low hourly wage to get the 757 on the property (you don't have to explain it to me. I completely understand it and defended it in previous threads.) AC pays their Rouge 767 skippers less than WJ pays the 737 skippers (again I understand the government intervention.)

As for retirement savings, that's really a no brainer. Most of these guys will be at WJ within 10 years and once there, it's easy street for retirement savings. But let's assume for a moment that someone spends their whole career at WJE starting at age 30 and wants to retire at 65. Let's also assume the pay remains at $68/hr for ever, ROI at 5%. According to my calculations, you will be able to retire on about $48000/year. How much different is that from Jazz? How is the pension at Porter, Air Transat, Rouge, Georgian, CMA?

Yes those numbers are a freaking disgrace. Hang your heads in shame if you dare accept a position. If you personally know someone who will be applying do them a favor and hit them as hard as you can with a snow shovel. I mean very hard. But of course we will have many pilot whores that will be applying to it because they are greedy and selfish. I made more than that 12 years ago flying a B100.

I chose to quote the above because, far and away, it is the farthest removed from logic. Someone should hang their head for having a future at the most secure airline in this country for wages 10% lower than the best paying regional in the country? Pilot whores will apply because they are selfish and greedy? So we have selfish and greedy pilots working for apparently really low wages? I thought the greedy usually seek high wages? Isn't the term greedy usually reserved for airline CEO's? Do they work for low wages too?

I made more than that 10 years ago flying an MU2, but then I went to Jazz and took a big pay cut. Sorry, but that's unfortunately how this industry works.

WRT Alaska/Horizon, aren't they near the highest paid mainline/regional pilots in the US. Horizon pays between $67-$114/hr. Seems good to me: you take a short term pay cut for long term wage gain.

Let's settle this the easy way: in one year, I'll post a poll for WJE pilots and see how many of them regretted coming over. Would any one of you place a wager against me?

I think the best question any pilot should ask is, "what is the best job I can get right now?". If you have the time to get on with WJ mainline, come on over, or go to AC or overseas. If no one will hire you with your current experience to fly the larger metal, go fly 703 (lot's of money there now) or go fly for a regional. Of all the regional airlines which one is the best job over the long term? If someone can tell me which regional job in this country is better, ceterus paribus, (please don't compare a 15 year Jazz captain to a new higher WJE pilot) feel free to state your argument.

Happy flaming and Merry Christmas.

[Sportking]

Good points BEDE but you mentioned WJ has the highest paid narrow body pilots which is in error, Air Canada's A320 drivers have that distinction. Also please detail how on earth someone that earns $68/hr at 70 hrs per month for 35 years amounts to a $40k pension based on a 5% ROI.

thanks

[snowball]

Hey Bede. You gotta admit you are playing a lot on the ifs. IF they fly 85 hrs a month their pay will be ok. 90 hours a month before OT is reached? You honestly think that is fair? Put an opinion poll out on that one an let's see. You are assuming there will always be profit sharing. I am sorry but if you add up all the compensation that is being guaranteed it doesn't equate to the highest paid in the country. Not even close.
My point is you are ignoring the trend of this industry. WJE just lowered it 5 -10%. The next company will do the same and the trend continues. THAT should be what's at focus here. Soon you would be justifying a 40k a year for captains saying it's the best in the country. Is that really where we want to see this going. Why couldn't WJE just offer the going rate GUARANTEED each month. Is that really such a problem?
Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to start a battle with you here. I hope the pilots do fly 80-85 a month and happy happy as hel* a year after they start. The greed thing I a getting at is the me me me me syndrome pilots have. They are allowing the industry to get lowered without any foresight of the potential problem they are creating for the future of our kids. That's what I mean by greedy. Not necessarily compensation.
Just getting tired of pilots being a bunch of pushovers accepting lower and lower wages. Get a backbone and refuse them. What would you think would happen if the airlines said to the insurance companies that they are only going to say 90% of what they paid last year? How about a big FU? Or the fuel companies? Or deicing companies? But pilots? Pilots just say "Anything to let me fly your big shiny planes sir". It's getting freakin pathetic.

[biatch]

Bede,

Your #'s regarding Jazz are way off. The pension is way higher than 48k for any pilot on the property since last CA and who earns full eligibility at 65 under that plan. Try over 6k/month. Indexed too. Like the other guy says, lots of ifs in your arguments and some incorrect statements regarding Jazz anyway. The encore WACON suck any way you slice it. So does SR of course.

[Brick Head]

Um? When you let the market determine wages and working conditions it will be low. The WJ pilots and ACPA both made the same mistake. A missed opportunity to set minimum standards and avoid what happened in the US.

[jjj]

The Encore WAWCON stink at first but BEDE brings some good perspective.

Despite the ifs, any one coming off the street and wondering Jazz vs. Encore, Encore will blow the Jazz package out of the water by virtue of the quick upgrade alone.

In time, the WAWCON will have to change as upgrades take longer and longer - which is what happened on the 737s. That is why we have First Officers that are paid better than step 10
Captains at Jazz.

Flame on.

JJJ

[flyer 1492]

Hey Bede,

Just wondering what the projected time for an upgrade is now at WestJet?

[Bede]

Sportking,
If you look at T4's, a WJ pilot will out earn any AC pilot period. I have flown with guys regularly who make close to $300k. The highest was $340k a couple years ago. Other than in the first couple years, every FO makes over $100k. Hourly wages are similar. The top end is slightly higher at WJ, the bottom slightly higher at AC. I calculated out what the AC pension is worth using common actuarial principles. When that is factored in, the lifetime earnings are about the same for narrow body pilots. Having said that a retiring B777 skipper will do better than any retiring WJ pilot.

Those retirement numbers are from the TD retirement calculator. The interest assumption is actually 5.25%.

Snowball,
You are right, there are a lot of assumptions in my argument. Welcome to financial forecasting;) I did try to be conservative though. I disagree about lowering the bar 5-10%. After all the extra's at WJE, the T4 money will be similar to Jazz. Of course you can argue that companies will only look at the hourly wage. The same argument could be made about the 757 status pay. I disagree about the trend in this industry. I just made a long post about this in another thread. I believe our industry as a whole is getting better. The wages at the top may be coming down, but more pilots are finding work and the wages for lower level jobs (floats, king air, etc) are going up.

As for guaranteed flying, it could be raised. The downside is that if the flying drops off there is a higher probability of layoffs. No company pays guys to sit at home. Either way would work- a low monthly guarantee just gives a bit of flexibility before layoffs are considered

I find it interesting that every pilot seems to think they can be the sole arbiter as to what is a fair wage at other companies. I could say that Jazz pilots are lowering the bar, Emirates pilots could say the same about Canadian pilots. Jazz could say it about CMA pilots. The only person that can determine what wage they should work for is the person with the job offer in front of them.

Biatch,
Sorry I got the pension thing wrong. What's the pension at Jazz going to be like for a guy retiring in 30 years? I never said WJE is the best paying job ever, I said it's the best job for a guy starting out right now.

Everyone seems to get hung up on what's happening in the US. I did a calculation a few years ago when I had been in the industry 10 years. I compared my yearly earnings with what I would have made had I had a normal career progression as a US pilot. Guess what? I would have made considerably more in the US.

We all would love to have the days back where you could retire at 60 off a B747 with a full pension. Those days are not coming back no matter how much we complain on this forum. Let's seek to have a decent quality of life and ensure that as many of us can find work as possible. I am not greedy. I just want a decent wage and good job security. If I was flying a King Air right now, WJE would offer that.

Flyer1492,
Upgrade time at WJ? Forever. I think it's 6.5 years right now. I think I'll be 10 years. At least the pay is bearable in the RS here (as it is at AC once off PG). Part of the problem is the age of the pilot group. Average captain is 42, FO is 38 I think. I would bet AC has a quicker upgrade right now. Eventually this problem will hit WJE as well at which point pilots will have to re-evaluate if they want to come to WJE. Until then, I believe WJE is the best option for someone wanting a regional pilot job.

PS
I thought I'd get tar and feathered after my last post. Must be the Christmas spirit making everyone civil. Cheers;)

[squawk]

Sportking

Bede is correct. Westjet Pilots are the highest paid narrow body drivers in the country. Topped up by ESP. The lack of pension plan is a concern. It is also a concern for AC pilots as well. AC plan may not exist in 5 years. I am sure Encore pilots will rise to the top, pay scale wise, in due time.

[7thirtyseven]

So Ive looked everywhere, cant find where these numbers have been released.... And since noone has put up a link here, I'll just chalk it up to the glories of the interent.Mostly shit most o' the time.

[Tiny Voices]

So Ive looked everywhere, cant find where these numbers have been released.... And since noone has put up a link here, I'll just chalk it up to the glories of the interent.Mostly shit most o' the time.

Look harder! Start in your Webmail.

[AJV]

where are these numbers coming from??

[Kosiw]

Yes it would be nice to see the whole package available to read....is it just coincidence that its release is timed right around xmas when everyone is distracted with turkey and eggnog ?

Rather funny watching the pontificating going on about the shitty salary justification. Next it will be your leadership who will be blaming SkyRegional and the 91% who voted to start this gig.... and it would appear that those who fly at WJE will have to work more for tier 2 benefits, tier 3 wages and all for the carrot at the end of the stick...talk about creating discord for a group of employees even before they get this concept off the ground..........Everyone in the westjet family are equal but some are more equal than others

[biatch]

JJJ, I hear this all too often about WS f/o doing better than Jazz CA. Simply not true. When factoring the total compensation @QK (which is 30 - 35% higher than hourly credit rate) a top earner (even those who are not) @ QK does very very well and out-earns the average WS f/o. I know you have some that do a ridiculous amount of OT. They probably can come close to the total package @QK

I'm surprised that Jazz is even mentioned in this thread with regards to bar-lowering. C'mon!

This thread/forum illustrates why this happens to pilots. Next thing someone will say is Jazz is overpaid or a Q pilot isn't worth that much etc....If we were truly professionals we would be happy for high wages and great WACON and we would do what is necessary to keep the standards high in this country. Like other professional associations. We are bus drivers now apparently getting paid less than bus drivers.

[Bede]

7thirtyseven,
Those numbers were released a couple days ago in an internal memo about WJ pilots wanting to go over as DE captains.

... and all for the carrot at the end of the stick...talk about creating discord for a group of employees even before they get this concept off the ground..........Everyone in the westjet family are equal but some are more equal than others

I'd like to think of it rather as the light at the end of the tunnel. Almost everyone in this industry gets in dreaming of flying big airplanes with big pay checks. However, there is no guarantee in this industry that you will actually get to this stage. WJE is the best chance there is.

Biatch,
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Jazz is a good company with a good compensation package. However WJ FO's still out earn captains. WJ ESP, profit share, RSU/options add about 30-35% to the hourly rate as well. A friend of mine used to be a 12th year Jazz Captain and is now a 6th year WJ FO. He said he matched his Jazz T4 when he was a year 3 WJ FO. He did very little OT.

[Kosiw]

Bede you mentioned "Those numbers were released a couple days ago in an internal memo about WJ pilots wanting to go over as DE captains."

Curious would those who do jump down to WJE start at new hire wages or ?

[George Taylor]

So does a mainline FO make more then a WJE captain? Something seems very wrong.

[TheStig]

These wages should be a concern to WestJet's 737 drivers, you're starting to look pretty expensive compared to the Q400 pilots at Encore...

[7thirtyseven]

Bede, sorry dude I looked cant find. No numbers in any email etc from Ferio or DaveP. Perhaps DaveP has been filtering my mail for me?

[Sportking]

It's from Ferio's memo. It's in the Q and A section

[CLguy]

Does this thread ever sound familiar. Wish someone could did up the archived thread of when WestJet mainline was starting up. All you read was how they were whoring themselves, bringing the industry down, lowering the bar etc. etc. We sure don't hear any of those comments being thrown around anymore when discussing their salaries. Maybe we just have a case of history repeating itself?

[Tiny Voices]

Bede, sorry dude I looked cant find. No numbers in any email etc from Ferio or DaveP. Perhaps DaveP has been filtering my mail for me?

From the desk of S.P. on the 21st at 12:45. Perhaps you deleted it since it shared the same title as two previous Encore memo's?

[jjj]

Biatch,

I never said anything about lowering the bar.

Also, forgive me but what is @QK?

I will edit my post above to be more specific.

We have 8 year FO pay tables at WS whose hourly rates exceed 10 year Jazz Captain hourly rates.

Top scale Jazz Captain barely outpaces top scale WS FOs in total comp exclusive of OT.

I guess the point remains valid. From a compensation point of view, day one Encore pilots who move over in a couple of years to mainline will blow the doors off a career at Jazz. If they stay on the Q then within a year or so they will be within 10 bucks an hour of step 1 Jazz Captains. Considering time to upgrade is short for now, year by year, new hires at Encore will out pace total comp for new hires at Jazz. In time, the agreement will get better as it steadily has around here for the last 17 years.

JJJ

[bituerbo]

Yes those numbers are a freaking disgrace. Hang your heads in shame if you dare accept a position. If you personally know someone who will be applying do them a favor and hit them as hard as you can with a snow shovel. I mean very hard. But of course we will have many pilot whores that will be applying to it because they are greedy and selfish. I made more than that 12 years ago flying a B100.

Yikes!

How much do you pay your pilots, snowball?

[North Shore]

I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but this:

Those numbers were released a couple days ago in an internal memo about WJ pilots wanting to go over as DE captains.

has me asking questions? Assuming that the $ #'s that Bede has quoted are correct, what would ever possess a WJ mainliner to go across to Encore? From what I understand, if you're a 1st, 2nd or 3rd year pilot @ mainline, it'll be a raise, after that, it's a pay cut, and a fairly substantial one. What's the upside? Sitting a few feet further left? That'll last about a year or so...