Airline who allows you to fly manually???

[onetreehill]

You can hand fly an RNP approach all you want.

[tbaylx]

d. During cleared transition between levels, the aircraft should not be allowed to overshoot or undershoot the cleared flight level by more than 150 ft (45 m);

Note. It is recommended that the level off be accomplished using the altitude capture feature of the automatic altitude-control system, if installed.

e. An automatic altitude-control system should be operative and engaged during level cruise, except when circumstances such as the need to retrim the aircraft or turbulence require disengagement. In any event, adherence to cruise altitude should be done by reference to one of the two primary altimeters;

So I still haven't seen a regulation that prohibits hand flying in RVSM airspace. The above mentions that it "should" be on for level flight and it is recommended that the level off be accomplished using the altitude capture feature, if installed.

Irregardless of the above, and if we take it that the quoted sections mandate the use of autopilot for level off and cruise(which I do think is a good idea and the intent of the regulations), there is still a large portion of the climb or descent in RVSM airspace that can be hand flown. I would argue that there is little risk of hand flying the aircraft at those times, and may even keep the crew more engaged and alert.

Not sure how much more clear it needs to be, you need an altitude control system that is operative and engaged to be in RVSM. You can take it off t rim and that's it. If you don't have it, you need to get out of RVSM airspace.

Have you ever flown a jet, particualrily a heavy one near its performance ceiling in cruise? Its very pitch sensitive, and is a bitch to keep level at altitude without constantly going up and down a bit. Since you're on a 1000' vertical separation in RVSM that's why you aren't allowed to hand fly it. Hand flying a jet at altitude does one thing...tires you out and requires a lot of concentration. It does nothing to keep you engaged or alert unless you mean focused on keeping it at one constant altitude and not setting off other aircraft TCAS alerts at the expense of your ability to effectively monitor other aircraft systems like you should be.

This off a Nav Canada site if you really need a canadian reference.

In Flight - Entering, Flying Within and Leaving RVSM Airspace
When approaching the first cleared flight level, and/or when changing flight level in
RVSM airspace, aim to keep vertical speed within 500 to 1000 ft per mm: do not exceed
1500 ft per mm, and ensure that the aeroplane neither undershoots nor overshoots the
cleared flight level by more than 150 ft, manually overriding if necessary. One automatic
altitude-control system should be operative and engaged throughout the cruise.
Exceptions to the requirement for the altitude-control system to remain engaged are
when it may be necessary to re-trim the aeroplane, or when the aeroplane encounters
turbulence and operating procedures necessitate disengaging or modifying this mode.
Any disengagement should be kept to as short a period as is necessary.

[Double Wasp]

Hi all,

Sounds like a SHOULD vs SHALL arguement, which any competent pilot SHOULD know the difference between however it is not a legal requirement that they SHALL. In short: one will give you a letter and a fine, the other will give you a dirty look and possibly a stern talking to. Now if your SOP's state that you SHALL, then legally you are required to operate in this manner as they are approved by the minister and therefore become the law under which you SHALL operate. This however only applies to the company to which these procedures apply.

Just because it is legal does not mean it is safe, but you SHOULD also know when you are actually breaking a law vs a recomendation.

This applies to more than just RVSM, look up the definition of required visual reference when continuing to land after an approach. There are a couple of pretty big SHOULD's in there as well.

I can not believe I got sucked into a junior high style pissing match.

Carry on
DW

[True North]

You can hand fly an RNP approach all you want.

If you say so.

One of your Chief Pilots says otherwise.

[Galaxy]

@Double Wasp, exactly my point. Never did I condone doing it. I was simply stating I did not think it was a legal "shall" requirement to have the functional ap engaged.

Some of you circuit jockeys are wound up a bit too tight. Chill out. Maybe you boys need some more hands on time

[twinpratts]

You can hand fly an RNP approach all you want.

If you say so.

One of your Chief Pilots says otherwise.

Hmmm... our FOM says the FLIGHT DIRECTOR shall be used on an RNP approach, (not the Autopilot).
Anything that's not mandated in the book is a technique (pilot's own preference) vs. a Procedure (Rule).

That's how I read it.

[True North]

You can hand fly an RNP approach all you want.

If you say so.

One of your Chief Pilots says otherwise.

Hmmm... our FOM says the FLIGHT DIRECTOR shall be used on an RNP approach, (not the Autopilot).
Anything that's not mandated in the book is a technique (pilot's own preference) vs. a Procedure (Rule).

That's how I read it.

Hmmm…I asked my buddy to send me a reference. This is what he sent me:

FOM 4 117 states “Non-precision approaches will be flown using all available AFDS systems”, and

FOM 4 121 under Required Equipment – RNAV (RNP) Approaches

(1) A/P Channel in LNAV/VNAV

[cj555]

Very interesting article from Nav Canada on now RNP approaches are revolutionizing the instrument approach.

http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefiniti ... 827_en.pdf

[trey kule]

To the original poster..

If you want to fly manually , IMO you are barking up the wrong tree chasing an airline seat.
Airlines are not looking for cowboys or kids that think an airliner is there for their personal enjoyment. And with the deteriorating pay in the airlines , and increasing work days, there is probably some good opportunities in other parts of the aviation sector which will allow you to hand fly all you want.

Now, if you think you need to hand fly there is a problem..First, you should not be sitting in the seat of anything and not be competent to fly it unless you are training...Currency however, is definitely an issue, but there is really nothing to be gained from hand flying in cruise at all in terms of 'getting the feel of it'...that is inexperience talking.
There are some issues that are being addressed by the airlines. Until recently it was the deterioration of pilot skills not being used due to all the automation, particularily in the landing phases..Now it is swinging a bit to the fact some of the new hires dont have the experience (skill) to start with. Unfortunatly this opportunity by the airlines to hire inexperience cheaply is now catching up with them. In the US they are changing regulations.. The airlines themselves are seeking to try and replace experience with enhanced training...It is why we are now starting to see things like training for airline pilots in stalling or unusual attitudes..The new generation have, in alot of cases just never had the experience to instil their initial training into them , or worse, to get the bad ideas out and corrected.
In any event, an airliner cockpit on an operational flight is not intended to be a training envirorment for any of the flight crew on board..If you need to hand fly, you, and the airline have a problem.
So, flex up the fingers, push the buttons or touch the screen and sit back and enjoy the show...that is modern airline flying.

[FlyGy]

Irregardless of the above,

1: Irregardless is not a word.

2: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013 ... _warn.html