Air Canada and the Pliots at it again....

Airbrake · Post by **Airbrake** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:43 am

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... /Business/

"
By GARY NORRIS

Wednesday, June 8, 2005 Updated at 10:55 AM EDT

Canadian Press

Air Canada may cancel a $6-billion (U.S.) order for 32 new Boeing long-range airliners if it doesn't reach an agreement with its pilots by Friday, airline chief Robert Milton says.

The purchase of 18 Boeing 777s and 14 of the new 787 Dreamliners was described as firm when it was announced April 25.

However, Mr. Milton — president of parent company ACE Aviation Holdings Inc. — told a transport industry conference in New York on Wednesday morning: “I would highlight that we're actually in the final stages of negotiating with our pilot group the terms of the contract by which they'll fly these aircraft. We do have the ability, if we cannot reach an agreement by the 10th of June, to without penalty cancel these orders.”

He added: “I think Boeing would be quite happy to take them and put them somewhere else if we can't figure it out. It is my hope, obviously, that we get it done. If we don't, we'll have to revert to Plan B — which would be adding more used aircraft.”

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Mr. Milton said the airline regards the new Boeing aircraft as “a game-changer going forward” as it expands on long international routes, particularly to Asia.

When the deal was announced, ACE said that including options the order could expand to $15.9 billion US, totalling 36 Boeing 777s and 60 Dreamliners — a new model scheduled to be flying in 2010.

Coincidentally, a media event in Montreal to show off a 777 en route to the Paris Air Show was cancelled hours before it was to have taken place Wednesday.

Air Canada cited “administrative reasons.”

Mr. Milton also told the webcast conference that “Wal-Mart pricing is permanently here” in the travel industry and Air Canada is reacting by morphing from a “legacy airline” to a “loyalty airline.”

Its strategy is provide “commodity pricing at the low end,” while bulking up yields by charging more for scheduling flexibility and full frequent-flyer points.

“We are always competitive with our low-cost competitors,” Mr. Milton declared. “Day in, day out, flight for flight, they know there is nowhere to go in terms of dropping prices that we won't match them.”

Mr. Milton said Air Canada and its Jazz regional unit have been “pleasantly surprised” by how much they have gained from the domestic market share held by Jetsgo before that discount airline collapsed in March.

And he said Air Canada has benefited on international routes — while U.S. airlines have been hurt — because of the American government's stringent security requirements.

“People just find it too much of a hassle to change planes in the U.S."

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:55 am

This won’t be the first time that a union group can’t see the forest for the trees..

C-FOXY · Post by **C-FOXY** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:05 am

Just a thought...

Wouldn't all these new aircraft mean more jobs??? If it were me, I'd be all over getting things sorted out as quick as possible so that my fellow colleques can see some positive movement in this industry.

What is up with pilot unions these days? My 2 cents.

TTail · Post by **TTail** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:07 am

Ya, but maybe the agreement is asking for more garnishment of the already weakened salaries of Air Canada pilots.

bizjet_mania · Post by **bizjet_mania** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:21 am

Some of the high on the seniority list guys sitting on the A320s don't get care just move up unto the A340s and bump the junior guy. So they don't take much of a cut. I don't think the pilots or the union for that matter, cares about any other pilots other than its own. Would be disappointing to see them cancel the new orders.

greenwich · Post by **greenwich** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:31 am

Gotta love the Unions.

And you know what, 99% of AC pilots belong to the union...you don't see them speaking-out!

Same old battle: We want more money, more benefits, more time off, and less work-days.

Don't kid yourselves, all of the 'consessions' that the various unions made over the last year to 'save' AC were just temporary. As AC stabilizes, each union will slowly start clawing its way back to where they were pre-bankruptcy!

Why can't these unions understand that North American aviation has seriously changed over the last 10 years. "Big Red" cannot survive in today's industry if it is run as it was in the 70's and 80's!

G

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:36 am

Why is it the pilots must accept concessions to fly these new aircraft?

The pilots have given more concessions than all the other Air Canada employees combined.

Maybe the Flight Attendants should give some concessions to fly these new aircraft.

How about maintenance? Ramp workers?

The pilots have had enough of this bullshit and are calling the bluff.......

bizjet_mania · Post by **bizjet_mania** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:38 am

I always have said if you can't live off of $12-15K a month, then theres something terribly wrong with you.

bandaid · Post by **bandaid** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:40 am

Come on guys, I'm sure that all the management staff are already cutting their wages to help pay for these new aircraft. They seem like a caring bunch who have nothing but the well being of Air Canada in mind.

Mitch Cronin · Post by **Mitch Cronin** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:43 am

greenwich wrote:Don't kid yourselves, all of the 'consessions' that the various unions made over the last year to 'save' AC were just temporary. As AC stabilizes, each union will slowly start clawing its way back to where they were pre-bankruptcy!

Oh?... izzat so?.... Me thinks, sir, that you hasn't a clue... 'cause if ya did, you'd be singin' a different song.

Nothing temporary about what many of us gave up... Funny you should mention though... I was just saying, elsewhere, that we in maintenance have given away salary, time off, holidays, sick time, uniform allowance, overtime pay, night shift premiums, ... stuff that put us back decades in some instances... and we haven't got the slightest hope of improving it until 2009. You call 6 year concessionary contracts "temporary", do you?

Mitch Cronin · Post by **Mitch Cronin** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:51 am

Lost in Saigon wrote:[...]The pilots have given more concessions than all the other Air Canada employees combined.
[...]
How about maintenance? [...]
The pilots have had enough of this bullshit and are calling the bluff.......

Sorry dude, you're sadly misinformed! A midnight shift, top salaried AME's losses totaled about 23%. And why in hell do you think we'd care if we got new airplanes? They don't provide us with any potential for higher salaries, and older ones ("plan B") bring us more job security anyway.

I'm glad if ACPA won't budge. I don't think they should, they've been crapped on enough, but so have we!

bandaid · Post by **bandaid** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:20 am

You know, as a Union member here in B.C. during the last contract we signed for 0% over 4 years with very little else added in. The theory at the time was to get a lot of us "older" guys through to retirement before privatizing became an issue. The Lieberals talked to us about the need to freeze public sector wages and protect these jobs for the younger men and women. So we ageed to a sh$%y contract.
Since this time the Province has boasted a 2.8 (or somewheres around there) surplus and have been running around spending it with reckless abandon buying votes prior to this last election, a swimming pool here, an arts center there. All of which will be used by less than 1% of the population while the public sector workers deal with cutbacks that effect almost everyone one way or another. And one more thing that frost the shorts of any Unionist is the fact that they legislated themselves a raise.
So how does this relate to Air Canada. Gosh, I'm not too sure. I'm sure that the ACPA, AME's, FA's wage concessions are lining someone elses pockets at Air Canada and somewheres in the near future we will all find out who that is.
And your right, if I am so unhappy here I could quit and do something else that I enjoy. If I weren't so close to retirement I would. Three and 1/2 years and you can find me at Walmart greeting everyone, or perhaps that guy at Wendys passing out the mints, of course it would have to be a late start march through october, got to golf in the am.

fougapilot · Post by **fougapilot** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:22 am

[quote="C-FOXY"]Wouldn't all these new aircraft mean more jobs???/quote]

Here is my 2cents. It is based on nothing then personal opinion, and you can be certain I have no insight on things to come with BigRed.

NO. These new aircrafts actually mean less jobs. What AC is trying to do is become more cost efficient and competitive in a tough industry. One of the road (they feel) that must be traveled is the one where the Cie must decrease its salary mass. The way to do this is quite simple; decrease the number of airplanes. In the near future, we will see a lots of routes go from AC to Jazz. The routes formely flown by A320 will now be flown with the new RJ705. You will see all of North America serviced by Jazz. AC airplanes will no longer do domestic flying, but rather concentrate with international overseas travel. This will generate savings in millions of dollards per year since Jaz personnel (pilots, Flight Atendant, mechnics secretaries...) are paid less then their AC counterparts. As retirements arrive in AC, their will be minimum hiring and you will see the number of AC jobs decrease drastically. Fact is there will be more pilots working, just not wearing the AC uniform. Rumor has it that all CRJ are already scheduled for transfer to Jazz...

Have you ever done overseas flying? Well last fall, I spent one out of every second weekend in Europe. Most trips were 72hrsish. Let me tell you I find it tough. I basically was Jetlagged from Oct 1st to Jan 1st. I dont like it. Many AC pilots don't like it either. Some guys out there have enough seniority to hold senior Capt on an A340, but much prefer stay on their baby A320 and return in the same time zone every night. But if my predictions are correct, these guys would have 2 choices; 1- drastically changes their life by spending a lot more days on the road for the same duty time; or 2 drastically changing the standard fo living by finding employment elswhere if they find option #1 unacceptable.

Again, I have no attachement to AC other then being a pax once in a while, this is just my 2 cents.

D

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:27 am

Mitch with all due respect you had better start looking around at what the rest of the industry is doing in order to survive. It’s a new world order out there you either change with the times or your company fails leaving you with nothing.

split s · Post by **split s** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:49 am

Bandaid, I have no idea about AC and it's internal ways, but, it is very interesting to hear from you guys within the AC group. Good post, hope the golf game is going well!

Croissant Wrench · Post by **Croissant Wrench** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:54 am

Band-Aid
Say hi to the K-Man and the crew.

Mitch Cronin · Post by **Mitch Cronin** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:24 am

Rebel wrote:Mitch with all due respect you had better start looking around at what the rest of the industry is doing in order to survive. It’s a new world order out there you either change with the times or your company fails leaving you with nothing.

Rebel... with equal respect, of course

Start looking? Hell man we've been at the leading edge of the giving to survive! I came through WD and CAIL remember, so I have an idea of what changing for survival is about.
For now we've survived and our upper brass are reaping the rewards in bonuses ....while trying to squeeze more out of the best asset they have??!

Some things have a bottom line... You may not always see it, but it's there. Any more hits at the maintenance group within AC will not come close to gaining for the company what they'd lose as a result. (I'd argue the last batch of concessions already produced a net negative result, but that's another sad tale)

I wouldn't be surprised if the Pilots have reached their bottom line as well.

Cheers,

canoe · Post by **canoe** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:32 am

Jeezus, you boys on here saying the union should roll over and fold again need to open your freaking eyes. Milty isn't taking a pay cut, they don't mind giving a couple million away to some gawd awful singer for a "new look ad campaign, and if they have the bucks to purchase these planes they sure as sh#t have the money to pay the men and women to fly and maintain them.

If someone or some entity has the balls to be announcing a purchase of this magnitude with respect to the 777's, the da$m well better be able to be able to back it up and not fall back on some bogus clause where by "if we don't have things straightened out with our unions by such and such a date, we can renig the deal". What a lame excuse, don't announce it to the public if it's not a firm deal!!!!! To me this looks like a pressure point to pin the blame on the employees for not taking cuts in their contracts if they decide to reneg the deal.

And another thing, i agree that there should be no problem living on 10-15 grand a month, so why do upper management require as much as 80,000 to live on per month? Also you a$$ clowns saying that the unions should take concessions to be able to get this deal done because it will provide more jobs and they'll get to fly new equipment should have your heads examined. That mentality of "I'll accept whatever you offer" because i'll get to fly a shiny new 180, caravan, king air, 777 is what is killing this industry. Have some self worth, these unions are trying to protect theirs.

hz2p · Post by **hz2p** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:33 am

It's a good thing AC's not a horse.

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:47 am

Mitch as you well know Milton is not one to bluff. If the unions had listened before CCAA perhaps the down effect would have been limited or at least the unions would have had some bargaining power..

It wouldn’t surprise me to see the 777F’s operated by other then AC crews. The passenger 777/8 will probably be gone by Friday as others are interested in our delivery slots. If our pilots won’t/cant’ do the job there are plenty available that will and can. That is the reality of the current market place so one must chose their battles carefully.

Mitch Cronin · Post by **Mitch Cronin** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:17 pm

Our pilots can and are willing to do the job... For the $ formula that's in their signed contract. We're talking about a few bucks per hour here! If the 77's aren't worth having because of that few dollars, then I question the sanity of even thinking about getting them anyway!

I'd like to see the shiney new airplanes just because I'm a fan of shiney new airplanes..., but I'd hate to see any more losses for employees just so we can have 'em. The bad blood between management and the rank and file is already blistering... that they don't see that, or don't care (whichever?), is not good news. Probably better not to dive into huge debt under these circumstances anyway.

I think Milton will bluff... but I also think he's stubborn enough to be capable of making personal face saving moves that will hurt the company. I have no idea which way this one will go, but I really don't believe the pilots need to give another inch. Most of them are still feeling the sting from too many hard hits, and compared to the industry standard for international carriers, they're already at the low end of the scale. (as are we, by the way)

. . · Post by **. .** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:19 pm

I sure don't want to see the pilots take any hits to their already weakened salary, etc. If the top end takes a hit everyone down the line does too.

To take this to an extreme: If they whittled the 777 salary down to 50K/yr, I can't even fathom what a king air captian would then be worth?

Typhoon pilot · Post by **Typhoon pilot** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:04 pm

All due respect to Rebel and all the ACer's on site I hope you get this sorted out soon it sure would be nice to see continued growth and fleet renewal. Both companies have had a s$%# kicking lately albeit their own fault or from outside pressures its time for some positives for both.

Cheers

bandaid · Post by **bandaid** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:19 pm

Gosh, I hope that I never gave the wrong impression to some of you guys. I don't work in the industry. I work for the Provincial Government as a Paramedic, hence, bandaid.
Not a lot of you guys/gals have trade union experience so I was just trying to give a little insight into what one has to endure over time. I could give you both sides of the argument in that I have worked on both sides of the fence over the years. I'll wait until I have retired, no need in getting anyone pissed at me so close to retirement.

B612 · Post by **B612** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:20 pm

Uncle Milty at it again. My crystal ball is a bit hazy, but didn't ACPA set the stage for this by ditching formula pay to avoid pay equality when blue and red merged? What's worse than RM's bad faith bargaining is the absolute stupidity of line pilots on how these processes work.

I'm tired of pilots talking about other pilots being overpaid. If you don't think you are worth much, enjoy your career at Westjet. The big difference between WJ and Walmart is Walmart employees know they are pawns.