College of Pilots.

[loopy]

With a government which forces pilots back to work when they're on strike? Something's not right here... Where's the rights of a pilot. Seems quite obvious that pilots hold a VALUABLE key to all of Canada and every other nation on the planet - economical. So valuable that countries can't afford having air carriers or their crews down on strike. Does ALL defence of a pilot then rest with unions? There doesn't seem to be a very good job as of lately. Could this 'college' potentially splay this imbalance of power? It doesn't seem to be on their agenda. There's definately issues present, and there needs to be an action of defence. It's frankly appauling.

Xlwing, I agree with what you are saying. I think the college's goal of being the body that grants licenses is not what we need. An association represents all pro pilots, regardless company affiliation, or specific specialty of operation, as a lobbying voice that expresses what we think needs to be changed or improved. It would not cost as much to run and administer as a college, and the membership fees would go to lobbying for protection of our rights or changes in regulations that affect us, who are out there flying. That association could lobby for the gov't to respect the right to strike, or have realistic duty times, are ban training bonds, or suggest recommended minimum rates of pay for types of work. I don't get that this is the colleges main thrust.

They do want to take on some of what an association often does by promoting the profession.

Recognition by a college (licensure) is mandatory. Participation in the college would be voluntary.

[loopy]

If you have the time, research a profession like medicine, nursing or psychology, for example. Pick a jurisdiction, Canada, or province. Look up the website of the governing or licensing body (college) and read what their purpose is. Then do the same for the association in the same jurisdiction. You will get a feel for the difference. Then ask yourself what we as a professional group requires.

I respect those promoting the college for getting it this far. Dealing with pilots is like trying to herd cats. I may still join. I am convinced that we do need a national voice. I just think there is more discussion required on what the focus should be and what form it should take.

[TomM]

To whomever it was that asked about membership cards, it is something we are looking at, but isn't high on the priority list right now. Price the cost for me and offer to lick the letters and stamps, then maybe you've got me.

When you join, you do get a receipt that verifies your membership.

The college as currently envisioned will NEVER get directly involved with wawcon issues. That's not what professional colleges/ associations do, as loopy has pointed out above. I know this creates a lot of heartburn for some of you. What I can say is that the college will ALWAYS support and promote professional conduct. So I ask you, do professional's work in unsafe conditions where they are treated disrespectfully, offer their services below what its worth or stab their colleagues in the back? I hope the answer is a resounding NO to all the above. This is where the college will provide guidance and remind us all to stand up for our basic dignity and say the big no to the above. This is where the code of conduct piece really resonates.

There are also varying degrees of sophistication of colleges or societies. I suspect what we are proposing would be closer to what engineers have than what doctors and lawyers have.

As far as creating a bureaucracy of pork-barreling politics, not on my watch and I would lead a charge to overthrow any subsequent boards in the future if this proves to be the case. Our political system is broken primarily due to apathy. Simple truth.

SO, I encourage you once again to look at our website. If you think that what is being proposed is about the stupidest thing you can think of for CPLs and ATPLs in Canada, then don't join. There's your vote and ultimately this will fail. If you think it has the ability to improve our lot or turn the current trend of where we're headed, then join.

Bottom line, make an informed decision, not based on the misinformation and fear primarily propagated here.

http://www.collegeofpilots.ca

[xsbank]

"Bottom line, make an informed decision, not based on the misinformation and fear primarily propagated here."

Ain't that the truth. A larger collection of complainers and whiners I've never heard, except for the letters section of The National Post.

[loopy]

Just human nature, I think. Welcome to public forums.

[cncpc]

SO, I encourage you once again to look at our website. If you think that what is being proposed is about the stupidest thing you can think of for CPLs and ATPLs in Canada, then don't join.
http://www.collegeofpilots.ca

There are many other valid reasons to not join, other than joining being the stupidest thing I can think of. It isn't, but I'm still not joining.

I'm interested to hear the definition of professional conduct. Would adultery be a no no? Is there a professional conduct manual somewhere that I've missed in the last 35 years? Booger mining during the checklist, visible to passengers in the waiting room at the gate? Who decides what professional conduct is?

Will it be something that now doesn't ban being a pilot, but will in the future?

[xlwing]

Maybe it would look something like this:

http://www.apega.ca/About/ACT/code.htm

[spaner]

Code of conduct is a nice way to introduce a poorly defined requirement, by which, one may be removed from the college. Bureaucratic BS.
Like the rest of it. The basic idea here, as with any "college", is if they set a standard by which the noose around our necks is tighter than that applied by the current governing agency...Government approval.
Now, not only do they have complete control, they have your money.

"College", friend of the government, regulate and control the members.
"Union", enemy of the government, regulate and control the employers.

Which would you like to put your support behind?
As soon as OATA puts their support behind it...scrap it.
Where we should be looking is here:

http://www.clrs.org/pdf/agreements/Iron ... 007_10.pdf

A perfect model for our industry, and "workers".
You would expect an ironworker to:
Drink beer,
Swear in the company of,
Look like he works for a living,
Pick up chicks in the bar,

Ho, and, they get paid more than you do, for working less hours.

[Gino Under]

Maybe we should focus as a group on trying to fix the profession rather than worry about the semantics of what name it bears. Pilots across the profession from PPL to ATPL need to decide what role this college will play in the years ahead. To do that responsibly takes a central unified organization and right now we really don't have one. Like all good Canadians we do most of our 'bitchin' over the neighbours fence, at Tim Hortons, on the flight deck, or AvCanada. It's all good, but...
nothing ever changes and with all due respect, we're not all members of a pilot union.

I know it's easier for most pilots to be negative, sceptical, apathetic or just plain critical of just about anything aviation and for good reason. But for me, I think it's about time something was done which is why I decided to join. Hopefully a wide variety of Canadian pilots will also decide to join and contribute to making the college appropriate, effective, and influential in changing the present stature of our profession and the industry in Canada. It will take time for its voice to be heard and certainly for it to have any influence but that's a given.

Too many players in Canadian aviation are ruining the piloting profession to the extent where very few are motivated or interested in taking it up and whether you realize it or not, that's a problem down the road especially for our nexgen.

In the final analysis, joining a College probably won't shake the foundation of our industry but it might just come up with a creative renovation. Joining an organization like this in its infancy might just give you a voice in how it's renovated.

Up to you.

Gino Under

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I am now a member of this the college........hell I always wanted to go to college.

[teacher]

Folks, doing nothing is so much worse than doing something. Especially if that something like joining the College isn't exactly what you might think is best for the pilot profession. I'm shocked that so many would rather stick with the status quo rather than take concrete steps to improve on what we currently have. Four points:

1) Be a part of the solution, join and have your say on the way the College moves forward.

2) This is the first step, a small step. Some of you have very lofty goals and grand plans but they cannot be carried out all at once. The first step is unity within a college of Pilots that includes all pilots.

3) change starts at the top and also importantly at the bottom too. Younger pilots and those not currently served by strong pilot unions need to gain strength and support if we are ever to lift our profession out of this very long drought. If the floor beneath you is weak you will fall as well.

4) I would also love to see a nation wide pilot union but it will NEVER happen. Too many competing interests and agendas. Could you see the WJPA, ACPA and ALPA sitting down to see how we could all work better together? Doubtful.

[x-wind]

I joined.

Teacher are you part of the college administration or otherwise, behind the scenes?

[Doc]

Folks, doing nothing is so much worse than doing something. Especially if that something like joining the College isn't exactly what you might think is best for the pilot profession. I'm shocked that so many would rather stick with the status quo rather than take concrete steps to improve on what we currently have. Four points:

1) Be a part of the solution, join and have your say on the way the College moves forward.

2) This is the first step, a small step. Some of you have very lofty goals and grand plans but they cannot be carried out all at once. The first step is unity within a college of Pilots that includes all pilots.

3) change starts at the top and also importantly at the bottom too. Younger pilots and those not currently served by strong pilot unions need to gain strength and support if we are ever to lift our profession out of this very long drought. If the floor beneath you is weak you will fall as well.

4) I would also love to see a nation wide pilot union but it will NEVER happen. Too many competing interests and agendas. Could you see the WJPA, ACPA and ALPA sitting down to see how we could all work better together? Doubtful.

You keep on smoking that whacky tobacco there, Teacher.

[ea306]

Took me awhile to buy into supporting this movement as I needed a little time to understand what the objectives were. Had the pleasure of sharing the flight deck with a First Officer who has been part of the formation of the CPPC. Joined a couple weeks ago. Thanks D.M.

[teacher]

I joined.

Teacher are you part of the college administration or otherwise, behind the scenes?

I am not yet as family and work obligations make it impossible but plan on being a part of it some how when time and life permits. Until than being a vocal supporter is all I can muster.

You keep on smoking that whacky tobacco there, Teacher

Why are some of you so afraid? Are we that afraid of change, unity, improvement, control?

[Prairie Chicken]

3) change starts at the top and also importantly at the bottom too. Younger pilots and those not currently served by strong pilot unions need to gain strength and support if we are ever to lift our profession out of this very long drought. If the floor beneath you is weak you will fall as well.

Teacher raises an important point, and one where I think the College can really affect change. It takes time to change a culture; frequently it takes a generation to do so. For those of you who recall, think back to the bad old days when no one thought anything of throwing your garbage out the car window. The ditches of America looked like hell. Then the governments introduced school and advertising campaigns. Remember "Don't be a litter bug!"? Dad might have kept throwing the garbage out the window but little Johnny in the back seat corrected him. Dad had to do the right thing, and now Johnny does too. Same thing with seat belts. Remember that uproar? It was the younger generation (ours) that made seat belt use the norm.

The same can happen with aviation. If the College can get to and support the next generation of comm pilots--to teach that ethical and safe is the ONLY acceptable way to fly--this WILL change. The culture must be changed--that's the only way. Unions and legislation won't do it.

[Doc]

Are we that afraid of change, unity, improvement, control?

I think a few of us have issues with "control". Some of us (myself for sure) feel there is more than enough "control" in the industry as it is. Certainly enough bureaucracy. Relinquishing control over our livelihoods to an organization that has repeatedly insisted they will have nothing to do with working conditions or salaries, but desire "control" over such aspects as licensing and a so called "code of ethics", and an organization with the "balls" to even hint that they will have any power over my (and other's) "conduct" is not sitting well with me. There will always be "joiners". We live in the world's largest "sheep farm", Canada. Bottom line? I don't join anything until I see what it will do for ME. Selfish? Hell mate, it's MY money.
If there is no intention to improve working conditions for pilots (and I SAF don't see any???) what IS the point? We have a licensing body. We have regulations. I don't believe we need more.

[mbav8r]

Doc, you have been one of the most vocal posters in the past regarding training bonds, etc. If you can NOT see the benefits of a "code of conduct" and the effect it WILL ultimately have on the negatives currently infecting this industry. You can shout and jump up and down, take out a full page ad in all the newspapers across Canada, to tell new pilots how their actions are bad for our careers and you still won't change a thing. A code of conduct, will and that will have a positive effect on WAWCONS. It's time to put up, or .... ..!
Edited to add, If you conduct yourself as a professional, what are you affraid of?

The college as currently envisioned will NEVER get directly involved with wawcon issues. That's not what professional colleges/ associations do, as loopy has pointed out above. I know this creates a lot of heartburn for some of you. What I can say is that the college will ALWAYS support and promote professional conduct. So I ask you, do professional's work in unsafe conditions where they are treated disrespectfully, offer their services below what its worth or stab their colleagues in the back? I hope the answer is a resounding NO to all the above.

[ajet32]

I asked a few pages back for an upside and as usual got the "go do a search response." I did that and still don't see the upside.

When I started working after leaving University; it was in another profession with a national institute, and provincial institutes throughout Canada. It was not required to join but advised. So after jumping through the hoops and paying the fees I went to a few meetings and to my dismay it was the same group that sucked up and never bucked the system as there was at University. Nice meal and a few drinks and a lot of back slapping and what we would call networking now. Very little of substance being accomplished.

That is my fear for this "College". That it will become a perceived elite group that has meetings but accomplishes very little. If the regulator doesn't stop crooked, dirt ball operators from doing business and asking young pilots to push and break the rules how does the "College" plan to do this and improve safety. For years in "Agriculture" safety was and is an issue. It took Federal and Provincial regulations in equipment and operating safety and enforcement to change things. The "Institute did little but write nice memos since most of the executives were employed by the same folks being regulated.

If this sounds all to pessimistic then I would suggest opening the "Presidents Update" to public viewing so those of us with genuine concerns can view a bit of what is being done before committing.

It isn't the $60.00 that bothers me, it is the secrecy. If you want my vote open up the information flow to all Canadian pilots.

[mbav8r]

ajet32,
With all due respect, what you are asking for, is covered by two old sayings and both are applicable. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free and membership has it's privileges.
I have read through the latest presidents update and can assure you no state secrets have been shared but there was some good reading. It's not a scam and you have to envision what it could be, not what it is now. Right now, it's a fledgling and soon, will transform into a democracy guided venture. Nothing ventured, nothing gained but as a member, I would not, could not, support giving access to all the information for free. I joined because of what I hope it turns into, not what people assume it will turn into and if you want any say in the direction it takes, well, to put it quite simply, you HAVE to be a member.

[ajet32]

"Sounds a bit like an "Elite" club". Something I don't think this industry in Canada needs.

I go with the fellow suggesting a Canadian Association of Professional Pilots seems much more appropriate.

[teacher]

Are we that afraid of change, unity, improvement, control?

I think a few of us have issues with "control". Some of us (myself for sure) feel there is more than enough "control" in the industry as it is. Certainly enough bureaucracy. Relinquishing control over our livelihoods to an organization that has repeatedly insisted they will have nothing to do with working conditions or salaries, but desire "control" over such aspects as licensing and a so called "code of ethics", and an organization with the "balls" to even hint that they will have any power over my (and other's) "conduct" is not sitting well with me. There will always be "joiners". We live in the world's largest "sheep farm", Canada. Bottom line? I don't join anything until I see what it will do for ME. Selfish? Hell mate, it's MY money.
If there is no intention to improve working conditions for pilots (and I SAF don't see any???) what IS the point? We have a licensing body. We have regulations. I don't believe we need more.

2 small examples on how a code of ethics could help WAWCON. Lets just say bonds are made against a code of ethics or maybe they are limited in time to 1 year. Than pilots are given greater freedom of movement and companies IF they want to keep their pilots working for them must increase wages to prevent pilots from leaving.

Protection or at least support from getting fired for not pushing weather or maintenance issues is another. New, young and naive pilots just starting have the backing to say NO and the support needed if they are fired from said operator. I would have loved this when I was starting out as I was the victim of such a termination. Didn't push weather and maintenance and was kicked to the curb. No regrets as my life and license are more important but having some support when it occurred sure would have been nice (BTW, transport did nothing until they crashed a plane so there goes the "enough control" argument).

[teacher]

"Sounds a bit like an "Elite" club". Something I don't think this industry in Canada needs.

I go with the fellow suggesting a Canadian Association of Professional Pilots seems much more appropriate.

It is an ELITE club. We are pilots not taxi drivers. We are highly trained people who are constantly tested both physically and intellectually. We have a bad habit if trying to dumb down our profession, not sure why. Change will only occur once we finally return to the days of having pride in being an Aviator. There's a reason we all get legislated back to work like someone else mentioned in this thread. We are important and nobody else can do the job that WE do. We are essential to the economic and social fabric of this entire planet yet many still believe we are only worth minimum wage.

[ajet32]

Well I would disagree with the "Elite Club" attitude in the strongest way possible. A little humility goes a long way and the real "Elites" have it in spades. If you have ever met "Sully" or "Al Haynes" then you will understand what I mean. These two and there are many more are true examples of professional conduct and they didn't need a "College" to get that way.

Having said that I will observe for a while and see what comes out if the "Elites" aren't afraid to be public.

[teacher]

ELITE doesn't mean walking around like a snob. A TRUE ELITE doesn't need to. They know they're good, they know they're professional and they act like it. If you listen to Sully speak you're right, he's a down to earth straight forward individual HOWEVER he has said on many occasions that the dumbing down of our profession and IMHO that means reduced respect, WAWCON and expectations have left this industry in a sorry state. Did he need a College to get where he is, no. In either case the new crop of up and coming pilots entering do as the industry that Sully entered has gone down hill since he began and he has said it himself.