Air Tindi Fatal TSB Report To Be Released March 20, 2013

[Tim]

to have that level of thc in his BLOOD he would have had to smoked very recently before the trip. within hours perhaps? having that high a level in urine would indicate frequent use, but can't be used as an indication of impairment (note that the metabolites stored in the fat cells dont cause impairment). cant argue with the amount in the blood though...this guy was baked and went for a plane ride, and paid a steep price for it.

im all for legalizing pot (for the record you can drug test me and i will pass, i just think it should be legal and regulated) but this crosses the line. its no different than flying drunk. the pro-pot crowd cant spin this one.

[xsbank]

I completely agree with legalizing ALL drugs, but not for pilots. Or to put it another way, smoke sniff suck shoot drop eat drink whatever you want, just don't expect to be a pilot.

[YYZSaabGuy]

This report really throws the pilot under the bus.

I'd be interested to hear what logic you used to reach that conclusion. The toxicology reports are pretty cut and dried, and the report lays them out. It then goes on to draw some not-unreasonable inferences about what the likely impact was on the pilot's working memory, coordination, tracking, perceptual-motor performance, temporal perception, and vigilance. It goes on to note that he dispatched VFR in marginal weather, flew in IMC under a VFR flight plan, and flew overwater beyond gliding distance of land. These are all facts. I'm sorry about the accident, and the loss of life, and the horrific impact on family and survivors, but just how does the TSB fulfilling its mandate and reporting the facts, unsettling as they are, amount to throwing the pilot under the bus?

[esp803]

I completely agree with legalizing ALL drugs

+1

but not for pilots

Could this not be treated like alcohol? It's 8 hours bottle to throttle and ZERO blood alcohol. So if you were to do drugs which remain in your system you would have to wait substantially longer before acting as a legal crew member? I think that if what you do on your own time doesn't effect the safety of the flight, then do what ever you want. If however it does... don't &*$@ing do it, and it should be heavily punished.

From what I understood from the report is that he would have had to have lit up much well into the 8 hours, and obviously doesn't meet the 0% in blood.

If drugs were to become legal, and employer could not take action against an employee legally for things he does outside of work that do NOT effect the job. Same goes for TC. With the current system in place, by legalizing you are removing the ability to screen candidates prior to employment. I'm not for random drug testing, but I would pass one if it occurred. I don't meddle in the private lives of others, and expect the same courtesy.

E

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Lets pretend Canada legalizes marijuana, you would still be prevented from flying in the USA if they find out you are a stoner.

[esp803]

Depends on the State at this point, you are good to go for 4/50.

E

[Dapilot]

Too bad that the only thing they can test you for without just case is Alcohol. Drug testing tech can not tell if you are impaired. It can only tell if you have been exposed and some drug exposure can show up for longer then others. ie THC. There is enough case law to protect you from drug testing due to current technology.

http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/pdf/poldrgalceng.pdf

I would refuse to take a test on the grounds that it not only violates my rights but it erodes the rights of others who may use.

[Tim]

Too bad that the only thing they can test you for without just case is Alcohol. Drug testing tech can not tell if you are impaired. It can only tell if you have been exposed and some drug exposure can show up for longer then others. ie THC. There is enough case law to protect you from drug testing due to current technology.

http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/pdf/poldrgalceng.pdf

I would refuse to take a test on the grounds that it not only violates my rights but it erodes the rights of others who may use.

like . said, that wouldnt do you any good in the US.

[godsrcrazy]

Some of you just simply don’t get it. This guy was under the influence of an illegal substance and you now feel after he killed one incent passenger and most likely terrified 2 others for life he is being thrown under the bus. You think they should be doing more tests to be sure. He was under the influence of an illegal substance. REALLY give your head a shake. The fact is we cannot take a doctor proscribed medication without Transport approval. Even more amazing there are others here that want to blame the company. Obviously they pushed an IFR rated pilot flying an IFR rated airplane to .. run VFR. No wonder no one can fly without an SOP. There are some on here that cannot make a decision unless it is writing. Someone up North will correct me if I am wrong I am sure but I was told that the competition was doing the same run around the same time and they were flying IFR due to weather.

[godsrcrazy]

Too bad that the only thing they can test you for without just case is Alcohol. Drug testing tech can not tell if you are impaired. It can only tell if you have been exposed and some drug exposure can show up for longer then others. ie THC. There is enough case law to protect you from drug testing due to current technology.

http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/pdf/poldrgalceng.pdf

I would refuse to take a test on the grounds that it not only violates my rights but it erodes the rights of others who may use.

Obviously you have never worked for one of the major Oil companies in Canada. There are many that have tried to beat these companies claiming against my Human rights and you can't prove how impaired i was. The fact is they are ILLEGAL substances that impair your judgement. Hello people can you say ILLEGAL SUBSTANCE.

[KK7]

I for one am extremely disappointed in this report, and I think they completely missed the ROOT CAUSE of this accident. I believe much more could have been learned from this investigation.

The pilot was definitely at fault for the actions that were laid out in the report, and there seems little doubt that he was under the influence. The pilot's influenced state and experience were no doubt a contributing factor. But are we to believe that this type of flight - .. running in extremely marginal conditions when a safe IFR flight could have taken place - was never previously performed by this pilot and by other pilots in the company? Where was the OPERATIONAL CONTROL here? Okay, it was pilot self dispatch, but is management blind to what's going on in their operation? The report only hinted at some operational control issues, then proceeded to "throw the pilot under the bus."

Don't get me wrong, like I already said, the pilot did play a part in this. But what lead to the pilot's behaviour and why did he feel it was okay to .. run? You can't blame pot for everything here. The pilot must have had some previous experience to feel this was an acceptable risk. I think the TSB missed an opportunity to take a really good look at how northern operators operate, and what kind of practices are happening on 703 aircraft. IMHO there was a serious lack of operational control and oversight, and these small aircraft being flown around in challenging conditions by relatively inexperienced pilots is where the most amount of supervision and oversight is required.

[esp803]

Some of you just simply don’t get it. This guy was under the influence of an illegal substance and you now feel after he killed one incent passenger and most likely terrified 2 others for life he is being thrown under the bus.

Just to be clear, I do not condone what he did and don't think he is "being thrown under the bus". People who knowingly put themselves and others at risk should feel the full extent of the law. I have the common sense to not drink and fly, not get high and fly, hell even to not fly when I'm ill. I'd like to think that other also have common sense, but time and time again I'm proven wrong.

My stance is more on, let's say a seasonal pilot, if at the end of season they got high once, and then didn't do it again for the 7 months they are off, I see no problem. If they do have traces of alcohol or drugs (illegal or not), excluding ones prescribed by a aviation physician, in their system while flying, then I have a BIG problem with it.

E

[esp803]

Well said KK7,

[2R]

Question for the legal beagles:
If someone is commiting an illegal act and is injured or killed as a result of their criminal or illegal behaviour is that person still covered by the company insurance ?
Would that persons life insurance be valid ?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I think the TSB missed an opportunity to take a really good look at how northern operators operate, and what kind of practices are happening on 703 aircraft. IMHO there was a serious lack of operational control and oversight, and these small aircraft being flown around in challenging conditions by relatively inexperienced pilots is where the most amount of supervision and oversight is required.

Pilots have been doing this as long as I have been flying and it is absurd to think the TSB is not aware of this fact.

Flying impaired by any drug is illegal and if they can prove you were impaired there is no defense.

From what I read on this accident the pilot was thrown under the bus I guess, by his own actions.

[duCapo]

Edited for relevancy

[Justjohn]

To be Clear:

It was marginal VFR in YZF when he departed. He was going to Lutsel K'e. There is NO FUEL avail in Lutsel K'e. There is no fuel enroute or within a reasonable diversion range. He was in fact tankering enough fuel to get back to YZF. The leg is roughly 140 NM. Maybe 40 mins in a Caravan? For this leg at least, he had ALL THE TOOLS required to be IFR.

I believe he specifically chose to be VFR. In other words, the Company did NOT force him to .. run. It was his decision.

I departed YZF that morning. I heard FSS conducting the radio search. I am aware of the actual wx. I am familier with the route. The accident report did not throw him under the bus in my opinion.

Considering that it is a relatively straight forward CFIT accident, yet it took this long before the report came out, I believe that the Board made very sure of what they were publishing because they knew just how damaging it would be.

[Colonel Sanders]

he specifically chose to be VFR ... the Company did NOT force him to .. run

Can someone explain to me this particularly Canadian
horror of clouds? In the USA, you get your instrument
rating before your CPL and you can't get an instructor's
rating without an instrument rating. It's really no big deal.

But in Canada, for many decades, I have observed a
really weird attitude towards IFR. You have to be some
kind of F-18 test pilot school top graduate to fly IFR in
Canada. I have learned through many painful years of
litigation, that Canadians are more terrified of clouds
than they are of incurable venereal diseases. You brush
a cloud, you are in BIG TROUBLE, BOY! WE'RE GONNA
GET YOU NOW!

I don't get it. Clouds are soft. The ground is hard. But
Canadians think it is the other way around. For the life
of me, I do not know why.



Oh, the horror

[Bobby868]

TC did not throw this guy under the bus. He threw himself under the bus. He was using illegal drugs, impaired and people died while he was at the controls. I think TC was more than fair.

I’m going to go one step further. Given the levels of drugs in this guy’s system I would say this isn’t a onetime thing. In other words it was a habit and other people had to know as well. In short who else at the company was using drugs and or at the very least new this pilot had a habit and never said anything?

I recall a post a few years back when someone claiming to be working the ramp said he saw two pilots get out of a 172 rental and the plane wreaked of marijuana smoke. He claimed he was certain that the pilots were stoned and wondered what he should do. Just a hypothesis but what if this accident pilot was the same stoned 172 pilot and the rampie had a chance to prevent all of this by speaking up at the time.

[Redneck_pilot86]

Someone up North will correct me if I am wrong I am sure but I was told that the competition was doing the same run around the same time and they were flying IFR due to weather.

Maybe that is part of the reason he thought VFR was the better option?

[Mr. North]

The pilot was definitely at fault for the actions that were laid out in the report, and there seems little doubt that he was under the influence. The pilot's influenced state and experience were no doubt a contributing factor. But are we to believe that this type of flight - .. running in extremely marginal conditions when a safe IFR flight could have taken place - was never previously performed by this pilot and by other pilots in the company? Where was the OPERATIONAL CONTROL here? Okay, it was pilot self dispatch, but is management blind to what's going on in their operation?

Yes, they were.

The dynamics at Tindi during that time was very interesting. Having been purchased by Discovery Air, Air Tindi was undergoing a short but aggressive period of growth. During my short stint there most of the individuals I interacted with were recently promoted or new hires altogether. As we adjusted to our new jobs, I remember questioning their pilot training and progression. At the time an individual would spend roughly 2-3 years working ramp/dispatch/socc. This would be followed by another 1-2 years as an FO on the Twin or King Air before one was cut loose on the Caravan (single pilot). Think for a moment how much actual flying experience that would offer. Is it enough to pilot a Caravan SPIFR? Does it make sense to go from two crew to SPIFR as a fresh new captain? I think it's possible BUT there is a strong requirement for the company to monitor the flight performance of individuals coming online. That was completely lacking at Tindi during that time. From my perspective, company oversight was reactionary with no one actively watching. In addition to this, there was a number of high time bush guys working there. Their reputation is well known and their stories are legendary. It is incredibly easy for junior pilots to get caught up in all the bravado, neglect their own inexperience, and find themselves in hairy situations.

There are a number of ways for a company to train and promote new pilots, all of which involve a certain level of risk. Tindi's habit of cutting individuals loose with little oversight was inherently more risky. As for their drug policy, it was on paper only.

My position on substance abuse (among others) is clearly presented in this thread.
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 13&t=86795

[co-joe]

Flight simulator experiments have demonstrated that THC has wide ranging effects on human performance, including impairment of working memory, coordination, tracking, perceptual-motor performance, temporal perception, and vigilance. The effects of impairment increase with the complexity of the task.

...

Perjaps not the time or place to ask, and I am sorry for the loss, but how would one become involved in such a "simulator experiment"? You know hypothetically speaking...

[whoop_whoop]

I think it's very sad that two people lost their lives and two were injured because a pilot decided to fly under the influence.

This pilot flew into Yellowknife just prior to the accident flight from fort Simpson on a VFR flight plan, in IMC, in controlled airspace (3,900 asl). The pilot had sufficient time to load enough fuel for an IFR flight to Lutsel K'e but chose not to. I must respectfully disagree with previous posters who feel that the pilot was thrown under the bus. This pilot seemingly enjoyed risk and made multiple stupid decisions. Their THC level was 50ng/ml in the blood. A 5-6ng/ml level is equivalent to .05% blood alcohol level. If this isn't the poster child for drug testing, then I don't know what to say.

[whoop_whoop]

Flight simulator experiments have demonstrated that THC has wide ranging effects on human performance, including impairment of working memory, coordination, tracking, perceptual-motor performance, temporal perception, and vigilance. The effects of impairment increase with the complexity of the task.

...

Perjaps not the time or place to ask, and I am sorry for the loss, but how would one become involved in such a "simulator experiment"? You know hypothetically speaking...

Mythbusters

[thatlowtimer]

"He enjoyed risk" that's a bold statement coming from someone who I'm assuming didn't know him or any of his friends or coworkers. It's also not unsafe to fly VFR in clouds.

Also, because I know there will be someone who points it out that he didn't have TAWS or GPWS or any of that business. But in reality the circuit breaker would have been pulled long before the accident.