Encore's Pay and Work Conditions

[WJ700]

"all this rhetoric of bigger tools and protecting against negligence is bs"

You are totally wrong here. Until you have your 'own' lawyer defending your rights after an accident or incident - you are not well protected. Currently the system in place now gets you joint council, meaning company and employee are represented by the same lawyer. As soon as their is a conflict of interest you'll be advised to get your own lawyer. Once you have your own lawyer hired on your dime, he or she will then work to sort out the mess of talking you have already done to the conflicting party.

This has long been a bone of contention for me, and I even keep the name and number of the law firm that I would call following an accident. So it is disappointing to see someone spreading misinformation on this topic.

[Squid]

So if it's in a corporate policy to protect the employee, that's one method of protection, then the pilot association has its own lawyers, that's two and I guess you are saying you have your own lawyer..well that's three. So you never mentioned the wjpa has legal representation, is that correct? I personally think you are wrong as im sure they have a speed dial to their own legal. Again it goes back to the jist of it all. You can do it yourself. Just as good. You want more of a legal war chest, then go to the current membership to kick in a few more bucks for the "what if. I'll bet they wouldn't mind one bit. At one time air Ontario was taking 50 bucks a cheque to build theirs (battle with AC pilots) it's still going on today to some degree to measure the legal depth of it all and how deep the pockets got. No misinformation there.

[WJ700]

It is apparent that you do not realize the difference.

The WJPA is a well intentioned and hard working group of individuals but the system doesn't allow them to be independent (they know this, you can read PACT meeting minutes for a long way back).
WestJet Pilot Association and WestJet Airlines are one in the same. You can not have independent representation under the law until you, or your independent association is footing the bill. You can only have joint council. For most items, all you need a good working relationship - we have that.

An accident that kills people will be a different test of the teal love, so I'll keep my own phone number on hand for independent advice.

[Arctic84]

WJ700, you are exactly right WRT legal.

It has been suggested that the pilots fund their own legal, yet all we here is "Don't worry". Why would it be a problem for the pilots to have their own legal fund? Control, and who has it., that's why.

Like you, I have taken steps to make sure my ass (or my family's) is not hanging in the breeze if the worst should happen.

[Squid]

You guys sure talk a big game, but I sure what the wjpa and Westjet would cover would far outweigh your own lawyer. If its like any other corporate airline code, you are to be defended. So is there or has there been an instance where you haven't been covered? The world is full of what if's. have you ever gone to talk with the er team or legal dept? If you reps say you are covered, why don't you believe them? Have they given you a reason not to trust them?

[WJ700]

You guys sure talk a big game, but I sure what the wjpa and Westjet would cover would far outweigh your own lawyer. If its like any other corporate airline code, you are to be defended. So is there or has there been an instance where you haven't been covered? The world is full of what if's. have you ever gone to talk with the er team or legal dept? If you reps say you are covered, why don't you believe them? Have they given you a reason not to trust them?

You will need to have an accident to find out if that is correct.

I'm not about to get in to a full blown debate on Avcanada about it but you certainly sound like you could benefit hearing the same advice that I did.

[nogood4u]

Thank you WJ700, you have it right. Thank you for the clarification!

[JSYK]

WJPA is the nickname for the pilots who are part of the Pro-active Communication Team for all employees.

Everyone is equal at WJ. Pilots want a lawyer? Call the FA who runs PACT and he'll ask the CSA, AME, Call center lady and Office worker peeps and they can vote, after listening to Company side, to release or not, funds from the bank account all westjetter's pay 2.50 into and is owned by WJ Corporation.

No chance for conflict of interest in that system.
By time it gets that far, everyone knows guy/gal must be guilty of something and doesn't deserve any funds.

Works well, people think they got great representation. No money spent! See why WestJet rocks?

[nogood4u]

And thats why management/PACT will do everything it can to keep this going. Its a good gig for all the PACT reps.
Gravy train.... but no legal representation for the worker.

[Squid]

psst, hey jsyk, it aint any better here lol

[JBI]

You are totally wrong here. Until you have your 'own' lawyer defending your rights after an accident or incident - you are not well protected. Currently the system in place now gets you joint council, meaning company and employee are represented by the same lawyer. As soon as their is a conflict of interest you'll be advised to get your own lawyer. Once you have your own lawyer hired on your dime, he or she will then work to sort out the mess of talking you have already done to the conflicting party.

This has long been a bone of contention for me, and I even keep the name and number of the law firm that I would call following an accident. So it is disappointing to see someone spreading misinformation on this topic.

If there is an accident, a carrier's insurer has a duty to defend. The insurer is the one instructing the lawyers. If you, as a pilot, are doing your job when the accident occurs, you are covered under the carrier's insurance because 1- it is usually part of the insurance contract that employees are covered and 2 - if you are found liable, the carrier (and it's insurer) is vicariously liable for your actions.

That is not to say that there are not times when a pilot's interests will differ from the carriers interests, but a simple knee jerk reaction of "I'm getting my own lawyer" will cost you a whole lot of money for no benefit.

The above does not apply in regulatory or labour/employment situations, but strictly from an insurance perspective, it would be rare that the pilot's interests differ from the carriers interests. By all means it is never a bad idea to speak with a lawyer who can help you determine whether there would be any conflict of interest. But instantly assuming that you need your own lawyer no matter what, is not a good way to go.

[WJ700]

You are totally wrong here. Until you have your 'own' lawyer defending your rights after an accident or incident - you are not well protected. Currently the system in place now gets you joint council, meaning company and employee are represented by the same lawyer. As soon as their is a conflict of interest you'll be advised to get your own lawyer. Once you have your own lawyer hired on your dime, he or she will then work to sort out the mess of talking you have already done to the conflicting party.

This has long been a bone of contention for me, and I even keep the name and number of the law firm that I would call following an accident. So it is disappointing to see someone spreading misinformation on this topic.

If there is an accident, a carrier's insurer has a duty to defend. The insurer is the one instructing the lawyers. If you, as a pilot, are doing your job when the accident occurs, you are covered under the carrier's insurance because 1- it is usually part of the insurance contract that employees are covered and 2 - if you are found liable, the carrier (and it's insurer) is vicariously liable for your actions.

That is not to say that there are not times when a pilot's interests will differ from the carriers interests, but a simple knee jerk reaction of "I'm getting my own lawyer" will cost you a whole lot of money for no benefit.

The above does not apply in regulatory or labour/employment situations, but strictly from an insurance perspective, it would be rare that the pilot's interests differ from the carriers interests. By all means it is never a bad idea to speak with a lawyer who can help you determine whether there would be any conflict of interest. But instantly assuming that you need your own lawyer no matter what, is not a good way to go.

If I am to understand you correctly, you are saying that a pilots interests will not differ from the carriers interests following an accident? As in, you feel (or know ) a conflict of interest will not happen or will be highly unlikely?

[WJ700]

Here is some good reading for you:

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2007/AAR0706.pdf

One of my favourite parts..

"The first officer further told investigators that he had not previously used the autobrake system during a simulator or airplane landing"

[Bede]

Hey JBI,

Good to have you back on the forum. Are you still practicing law or are you back into flying?

I would assume that your statements hold in a simple situation, but what if, for example, passenger makes claim against airline + pilot. Pilot files a cross claim against the airline. I would assume the carrier's insurance would still indemnify the pilot against the passenger's claim. Would the pilot have to seek his own representation for his cross claim? I would assume the insurance company would not want to pay out to the pilot as well and would not support a cross claim. Once the pilot has representation, the insurance company appointed counsel would probably be in a conflict.

[JBI]

Hey Bede,

I still lurk on the boards from time to time, but tend not to post too much anymore. Due to professional considerations, I'm somewhat limited with what I can post. I'm practicing full time and unfortunately have not done much flying at all recently.

In response to WJ700's post, there are times when a pilot's interests will differ from the carriers. Things are very fact dependent and this post is not legal advice. In the case of litigation after an accident, it is important to consider that as an employee of a carrier, you are generally covered and protected under their insurance. I just wanted to clarify WJ700's general suggestion that the carrier's interests are different than a pilot's interests. Generally, the pilot will be covered and protected under the carrier's insurance.

With regard to your question, in BC at least, an employee is barred from suing his or her employer for injuries that arose out of and in the course of employment. Whether the accident was as a result of negligence or not, an employee will be covered under Workers Compensation, but not permitted to sue. Other provinces may cover that issue differently.

That's not to say that there won't be situations where a pilot's interests will differ, but they will get resolved on a case by case basis. Say what you will about lawyers (I'm developing a thick skin) but they are generally very aware of whether they are in a situation where there may be a conflict of interest and will advise their clients when one arises. It may be that they continue acting only for one party, or it may be that they no longer act for either party.

I don't want to hijack the thread any further though I'm happy to discuss general legal issues with folks at the Flying Beaver if you're ever in YVR.

Cheers!

[Bede]

I don't want to hijack the thread any further though I'm happy to discuss general legal issues with folks at the Flying Beaver if you're ever in YVR.

Nothing like being the doctor or the lawyer at a party. "So you're a lawyer...I got screwed by this guy who did work on my house...here's some paperwork...what do you think? Do I have a case?"

Interesting, I never thought about the WCB angle though.

[JSYK]

Thread digressing a bit much but...

In event of an accident, the Company insurance provider will typically provide joint council to all involved employees & the employer. That lawyer is in privilege with all parties involved, not exclusive to the pilot(s). Not independent from Company or other employee's involved.

Everyone happy and usually on same side until TSB publishes report. If that report determines fault on the pilot(s) part (rarely doesn't!) and after settlements are reached with victims(Do these ever actually go to court JBI? (bigger airlines, not a couple of Navajo's)) then often Company discipline's or terminates pilot(s) for cause.

If you have a Collective Bargaining Agreement(CBA), then standard grievance occurs for the termination (looking for mitigating circumstances etc to over-turn Company discipline/discharge) usually to arbitration. (Air Canada 767 "Gimli Glider" incident for example, or so I have been told). Pilot(s) frequently win and are reinstated, but not always.

If no CBA, as is at WestJet presently, then pilot(s) can file with Labour Canada for a review of their termination. Outcome: unknown. Any examples out there? Can't find any. But, in that case it is an individual pilot vs Company matter, thus private. Plus, pilot(s) are on their own w.r.t. to finding & funding council from that point.

Best course of action in event of an accident, IMO, is for EACH pilot to have their own legal council, exclusive to them only, right from the start.
That's what SWAPA does and I'd imagine other established pilot associations(certified) do as well.

[hurtin'albertan]

Good thread. WJ700, JSYK the way you describe things is correct.

Truly Independent legal for the pilot group at WJ is long overdue.

[WJ200]

JSYK and Hurtin' Albertan you have both made your side very clear on the WJPA website and no amount of reality will get you to see the truth. Paranoia is a lot easier than trust. Even a Union will not give you the security you desire.....still a great place to work and we still have the engagement of management despite third hand information to the contrary.

[complexintentions]

Wanting to protect oneself and one's livelihood is surely not paranoia? As good as WestJet is as an employer - and I mean that sincerely, as I do regard them as the best of the bunch in Canada - it would still be foolish to put all of your "trust" in that goodness in the event of something going wrong. In the end, a company or corporation will always - by definition - put its own interests ahead of the individual. As long as those interests align - no problem. If not - you better hope you have more than a good feeling to protect you.

[Darkhorse]

[dhc#]

Not much news lately regarding the hiring at Encore....has it all been done for the western ops ? When will they hire for the east ?

Thanks

[whodareswins]

Just for comparison.....Somewhere outside of Canada Salary.

Dash-8 captain
Six week rotation in country and six weeks home.
Approximately 50 hours flying during complete rotation (200 + a year)
Training provided and paid for, Accommodation provided and paid for.

Approx. $110,000 a year after tax.

How about a company name? I provided company names in my post!

[Darkhorse]

[Cough Syrup]

My guess is DAC Aviation.

Maybe CHC? Voyageur?