AME Associations

[jetdoc]

Unofficial survey time:

Why do you belong to one of the regional AME associations ?

OR

Why do you NOT belong to one of the regional AME associations?


What issues should the associations be addressing to make them relevant to you?

Please try to be specific and constructive.

I am on the board of one of the associations and trying to gather some data to help us out.



Thanks for your input

[DonutHole]

As an apprentice I am reluctant to join, seems improper.

As soon as I am licensed I plan on joining and donating time to the cause.

[fixnfly]

I signed up to my local regional AME association. Supposedly comes with several free magazine subscriptions although I haven't received one since I signed up. Anyways one of the main issues I brought up a while ago that is facing our industry today is the growing gap between the older more experienced licensed AME's and the newer licensed AME's/apprentices as well as the skills shortage looming upon us.

Here is a link to that discussion:
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 27&t=82679

[jetdoc]

May I suggest that an AME shortage is not a problem if either myself (a AME) nor the AME association.

A shortage of qualified personnel is an issue of the employers and other associations.

Not to say that the AME associations should not be in support of initiatives and progams that encourage new people into the industry and skills developement, but according to the CAMC (CCAA) website this is clearly their mandate.

From their website:

Mission Statement


To develop, promote and administer a comprehensive and effective human resources strategy for the Canadian aviation and aerospace industry.



The Canadian Council for Aviation & Aerospace (CCAA) is a "not-for-profit" sector council that represents and assists Canada’s aviation and aerospace industry with its human resource strategy, issues and solutions. With the participation of industry members, we develop and publish National Occupational Standards with supporting Logbooks (for professional certification) and Curricula (for post-secondary training organizations).

[jetdoc]

As an apprentice I am reluctant to join, seems improper.

As soon as I am licensed I plan on joining and donating time to the cause.

I believe all the associations have an reduced "apprentice" rate.

Get involved.

[bombardierfixer]

As corny as this sounds... Apprentices are the future! As Jetdoc said get involved. Hell at very least you will meet some people that may be beneficial some day.

I wasn't very active as a AME until I got to where I am now. I have seen what you can do when you get everyone going in the same direction. If we can get the associations to pull it together and become relevant in our lives again I think, just maybe we can get something out of this career that as noted in other threads doesn't seem to be there for a lot of people. The associations have to do some soul searching though and go back to the basics. A lot of well intentioned far reaching goals have taken attention away from the basics, hence dwindling membership and growing apathy. I think initiatives such as the apprentice program recognition for learners is great, but pouring resources into that while your base is falling away is just a sure recipe for disaster.

AME associations, go back to your base see what they want, you have to answer the question of "what have you done for me lately"? Once you have the answer you can build on that.


Now, hopefully we don't get shit all over for this thread.

[Bent wrench]

What are the benefits of joining ? I don't know any AME's who are part of one !

[bombardierfixer]

I'd quote myself, but.

Thank you bent wrench. Associations this is what you need to answer. Once we get that answer, its all good.

[jetdoc]

What are the benefits of joining ?

Exactly the reason for this post...looking for answers.

What are the benefits that AME's need/want from an association?

Lets look at what is and has been offered:

• Symposium tradeshow, most exhibitors cater to selling stuff to AMO's, not individual AME's.
  Symposium recurrent training, again not something an individual AME needs, the AMO has a regulatory requirement to provide training, an AME needs NONE, in order to renew AME licence, $40 + show currency.
  Magazines - worthwhile, but ..

May i offer some possible suggestions for what the associations could offer:

• Regulatory advice to airworthiness issues
  Legal advice/services for individual AME's facing enforcement/legal challenges
  health/medical/auto/home/business & contractor insurance programs
  .????.....

Most importantly we NEED to have an association that represents ALL AMEs's at a national level (i.e. Ottawa), other skilled trades, pilots etc, have national associations that have a seat in Ottawa and have the ear of the parliamentarians and bureaucrats that make the decisions that can and DO affect our industry and our careers.

A quick look at all the other aviation related associations in Canada reveals something else very interesting, A COMPLETE LACK OF ANY REPRESENTATION FROM AME's on their respective boards, up to and including CAMC/CCAA!!

I do not advocate that the associations be in any way a trade union, but there are a considerable number of AME's across Canada that are not part of major companies that offers the benefits of a union, and I certainly think the associations could/should offer services to these individuals that would be of a great importance to them.

Please everyone, engage your coworkers, put some thought into what you think you want/need and post... I think we all agree we dont need another complaint post where everyone is critical, We all know its broke, need solutions!

[helicopterray]

I joined the association over 10 years ago because I wanted an association that speaks on my behalf when talking to regulatory bodies.
I felt that the more members the association had, the more credibility it would have.
For that reason, I would want all my fellow AME's to join, so the associations can lobby and provide input on behalf of all of us.

We all like to complain about changes in regulations, rules, (or non-changes), but beyond that, no one wants to take the extra step and do something about it. Join an organization, and let them act on your behalf.

The annual symposiums were always a bonus, it gave us all a chance to get together once a year, attend a seminar or two, and get caught up with old friends.
As far as the training goes, the company I work for provides all the training we could need to do our jobs.

[brownbear]

Okay I will weigh in.

Im not against associations. But exactly whose voice are they? They are not really a voice purely for the meager AME standing to be a professional. But actually a whole lot of voices all making a point.

I have never joined an association. 18 years in, and over 13 years licenced.

I see AMO's joining and managers being part, so that takes away from it being a voice for the AME and just a venue for others.

I see vendors being waay too big of a part. Symposiums are sales podiums for salesmen. How is it really training if it's provided by a vendor? I found it repulsive. I don't want to learn while getting a sales pitch.

I know there is good an all at some level, but what we really need is a common voice, like a union. Not all about money, but like architects have an association that provides the approvals, sets the bar, makes minimum wage guarantees etc.

Some good points were made above with regards to insurance etc.

I have viewed these associations more intended for GA in the past. Not really fitting the 90% of AMEs working on commercial planes flying pax in airline or charter environment. Companies provide training and don't need what the associations give. I was a DOM and would not send employees to the symposiums. As I viewed it as a waste of money.

Lets make the ASSOCIATIONS about the AME not the companies, vendors and schools. Just the AMEs. We need a body to make us professionals as the industry is trying to make us cheap labour slaves. Nothing is worse than the aviation industry for trying to make skilled labour into monkeys to save a buck. This is where we need help. Or god help this profession in 10 years.

[flatface]

Deleted

[helicopterray]

everyone else in the SMS system uses it for other agendas. One being a system to punish and discipline the participants, it has devolved into a system to bully and intimidate the participants.

Once that happens, you will no longer have a functioning SMS system, as employees will stop reporting issues.

[brownbear]

Thanks Flatface.

I see it exactly the same as you. Especially the membership requirements.

Groups like CAMC or their new name are not there for the AME either. They want to change the profession to suit industry to make it easier to fill vacancies at lower salaries.

We have a watered down licencing system and any more watered down the bar is going to hit the floor.
How about association mandates should be to keep the bar high on standardized testing, making it difficult to obtain a licence, then keep the professionalism up. Get the TC exams out of the colleges and into an association exam room if FN TC is too cheap to manage the industry.

They should be a lobby group to tighten the slackened licencing requirements. Start with that mission statement and I will buy a membership.

[flatface]

Deleted

[booboo]

To all,

I apologize in advance for the long post but those who know me know that it is unavoidable.

The fundamental issue with the regional AME associations and CFAMEA is that they collectively represent approximately 880 members. There are approximately 15,000 AME license holders and applicants in the TC A.M.E.S. data base. This means that the AME associations represent approximately 5% of the total AME population in Canada and a great number of these members are actually inactive. That's not much of a voice.

A subscription to a professional association should provide a great deal more than a subscription to a one or more magazines and an annual symposium, which is actually a trade show for vendors to market their wares. The primary sponsors of CCAA/CAMC have no legitimate interest in advancing the causes of the AME. If the airline and aerospace companies had their way, they would do way with the AME license and replace it with an internal company authorization. This would restrict the mobility of AME and reduce their monetary value. CAMC (as it was known then) already tried that route but it was Don Sherritt the former Director of Standards (an AME) who shot it down. He's gone now. The new director of Standards is not an AME.

CAMC also tried to obtain a delegation deal with TC to take over AME licensing and issue the licenses. For those people here that do not see the value in the AME associations, it was only because of the efforts of the AME associations that CAMC did not take over AME licensing. CFAMEA put forward a proposal to take over AME licensing and TC liked the idea but it seems that nobody followed through delivered a viable proposal.

Now CCAA / CAMC is approaching TC about a delegation deal to taking over the regulatory responsibility for Approved Training Organizations. My internal sources tell me that this initiative has traction with the Minister. This would allow CCAA to control AME training through the colleges and eventually AME licensing.

A couple of years ago I put forward a proposition that we AMEs should collectively put our efforts into an initiative to become recognized by federal and or provincial statutes to be professionals rather than trades. Our licensing system recognizes that we are more akin to an engineer than a mechanic and that is why we carry the title, except in QC because the provincial engineers association took issue with that. The simple reason is we apply engineering principles in carrying out our work. Read you provincial engineering statues, by definition we meet the criteria for requiring an engineering license.

I could not actively work on such a proposition because I was still at TC at the relevant time. My idea was picked up by the former President of the Western AME association. The last time I checked their website, it looked like the idea had lost momentum.

I am no longer with TC and I am now working with one of my colleagues on a similar proposition. The main thrust of the idea is to create a partnership between the Federal (CFAMEA) / Regional AME associations and the Federal (Engineers Canada) / provincial Engineers associations to create a limited engineers license for AMEs that would be issued through the Provincial Engineering associations but the training portion would be delivered through the regional AME associations. This approach would offer substantially more than a magazine and a symposium but it would cost substantially more money in terms of annual dues and liability insurance. It could also serve as or be linked to a union for Professional AMEs.

The British already have a very similar model in place. (http://www.alae.org/) Their AME association is made up of thousands of members from associations from many countries. That is a voice. Ironically, there is no Canadian association and only one a small local American association involved. We should change that.

This degree of recognition would go a long way toward advancing the cause of AMEs as being the champions of aviation safety and would open the doors to a possible delegation deals with the Minister to take over AME training and licensing and possibly even regulatory surveillance at the GA level. These are the kind of initiatives that we need from our AME associations.

Jetdoc, I also like your suggestions pertaining to regulatory advice to AMEs on airworthiness issues; legal advice/services for individual AMEs facing enforcement/legal challenges;health/medical/auto/home/ business & contractor insurance programs. Our business model incorporates some of those things. I would also suggest adding the creation of (on-line) AME basic training courses and bridging programs for experienced foreign license holders who wish to obtain a Canadian license so that they can meet the requirements stipulated in chapter 566.

I invite you to contact directly if you want to discuss this initiative in more detail but for everyone else that is listening, we AMEs, as a profession, collectively need to get organized, funded, mobilized and apply our resources in a directed and concentrated way if we are to achieve success. In that respect, I encourage you all to purchase or renew your memberships in the AME associations and to take an active part in them. Don't view your membership as a magazine subscription. It is your vote. Bring these issues up and make it a point to demand that your AME association get involved in a big way in promoting the true value of a Professional AME. It is only with strength in numbers that we will be able to exert influence and control our own destinies rather than sit idle and wait for CCAA to usurp the AME license and destroy its value.

Regards,

[hoptwoit]

I always found that the irony of the annual AME symposium was that I could never get the time off to go to one but management always manged to to find the time to attend.

Note: the above statement is not to be taken in any other contexts than a factual account.

[CID]

Apathy seems to be the trend these days. The various associations tend to have a lack of drive and when they finally do awaken and think of a "cause" to "fight" it's usually poorly done and based on silly arguments.

Associations should (in my opinion) fundamentally promote education and knowledge. If the membership is well informed and educated then the causes will present themselves.

I can't tell you how often I've attended the various functions only to find that the vast majority of attendees are completely oblivious to subject matter being presented.

American associations seem to do it MUCH better because they recognize how important it is to have a proper administrative group working consistently. You can't properly push your agenda or represent your membership if you wake up once a year and invest 20 hours.

I know I'll get angry responses from administrators telling me they work hard and do what they can with the resources available but I'm here to tell you that if you don't have the resources, it's time to double up with another province or forget the whole thing. There is no benefit in doing anything half-assed.

[jetdoc]

Exactly what needs to be said!

To all,

I apologize in advance for the long post but those who know me know that it is unavoidable.

The fundamental issue with the regional AME associations and CFAMEA is that they collectively represent approximately 880 members. There are approximately 15,000 AME license holders and applicants in the TC A.M.E.S. data base. This means that the AME associations represent approximately 5% of the total AME population in Canada and a great number of these members are actually inactive. That's not much of a voice.

A subscription to a professional association should provide a great deal more than a subscription to a one or more magazines and an annual symposium, which is actually a trade show for vendors to market their wares. The primary sponsors of CCAA/CAMC have no legitimate interest in advancing the causes of the AME. If the airline and aerospace companies had their way, they would do way with the AME license and replace it with an internal company authorization. This would restrict the mobility of AME and reduce their monetary value. CAMC (as it was known then) already tried that route but it was Don Sherritt the former Director of Standards (an AME) who shot it down. He's gone now. The new director of Standards is not an AME.

CAMC also tried to obtain a delegation deal with TC to take over AME licensing and issue the licenses. For those people here that do not see the value in the AME associations, it was only because of the efforts of the AME associations that CAMC did not take over AME licensing. CFAMEA put forward a proposal to take over AME licensing and TC liked the idea but it seems that nobody followed through delivered a viable proposal.

Now CCAA / CAMC is approaching TC about a delegation deal to taking over the regulatory responsibility for Approved Training Organizations. My internal sources tell me that this initiative has traction with the Minister. This would allow CCAA to control AME training through the colleges and eventually AME licensing.

A couple of years ago I put forward a proposition that we AMEs should collectively put our efforts into an initiative to become recognized by federal and or provincial statutes to be professionals rather than trades. Our licensing system recognizes that we are more akin to an engineer than a mechanic and that is why we carry the title, except in QC because the provincial engineers association took issue with that. The simple reason is we apply engineering principles in carrying out our work. Read you provincial engineering statues, by definition we meet the criteria for requiring an engineering license.

I could not actively work on such a proposition because I was still at TC at the relevant time. My idea was picked up by the former President of the Western AME association. The last time I checked their website, it looked like the idea had lost momentum.

I am no longer with TC and I am now working with one of my colleagues on a similar proposition. The main thrust of the idea is to create a partnership between the Federal (CFAMEA) / Regional AME associations and the Federal (Engineers Canada) / provincial Engineers associations to create a limited engineers license for AMEs that would be issued through the Provincial Engineering associations but the training portion would be delivered through the regional AME associations. This approach would offer substantially more than a magazine and a symposium but it would cost substantially more money in terms of annual dues and liability insurance. It could also serve as or be linked to a union for Professional AMEs.

The British already have a very similar model in place. (http://www.alae.org/) Their AME association is made up of thousands of members from associations from many countries. That is a voice. Ironically, there is no Canadian association and only one a small local American association involved. We should change that.

This degree of recognition would go a long way toward advancing the cause of AMEs as being the champions of aviation safety and would open the doors to a possible delegation deals with the Minister to take over AME training and licensing and possibly even regulatory surveillance at the GA level. These are the kind of initiatives that we need from our AME associations.

Jetdoc, I also like your suggestions pertaining to regulatory advice to AMEs on airworthiness issues; legal advice/services for individual AMEs facing enforcement/legal challenges;health/medical/auto/home/ business & contractor insurance programs. Our business model incorporates some of those things. I would also suggest adding the creation of (on-line) AME basic training courses and bridging programs for experienced foreign license holders who wish to obtain a Canadian license so that they can meet the requirements stipulated in chapter 566.

I invite you to contact directly if you want to discuss this initiative in more detail but for everyone else that is listening, we AMEs, as a profession, collectively need to get organized, funded, mobilized and apply our resources in a directed and concentrated way if we are to achieve success. In that respect, I encourage you all to purchase or renew your memberships in the AME associations and to take an active part in them. Don't view your membership as a magazine subscription. It is your vote. Bring these issues up and make it a point to demand that your AME association get involved in a big way in promoting the true value of a Professional AME. It is only with strength in numbers that we will be able to exert influence and control our own destinies rather than sit idle and wait for CCAA to usurp the AME license and destroy its value.

Regards,

[jetdoc]

CID, no flak, we do work/try hard, but your are absolutely correct, APATHY is the trend and incredibly difficult to overcome.

The current discussions (and my goal) is to move towards amalgamating regions, hopefully with the ultimate goal of a single association. This NEEDS to happen before any real progress can be made, but the only tool available to us at the moment is the regional associations, so I encourage EVERYONE to buy a membership to their regional and get involved, make your voice heard. Without the membership dollars, we have no resources.

No Money = No Change

Money = Change

Apathy seems to be the trend these days. The various associations tend to have a lack of drive and when they finally do awaken and think of a "cause" to "fight" it's usually poorly done and based on silly arguments.

Associations should (in my opinion) fundamentally promote education and knowledge. If the membership is well informed and educated then the causes will present themselves.

I can't tell you how often I've attended the various functions only to find that the vast majority of attendees are completely oblivious to subject matter being presented.

American associations seem to do it MUCH better because they recognize how important it is to have a proper administrative group working consistently. You can't properly push your agenda or represent your membership if you wake up once a year and invest 20 hours.

I know I'll get angry responses from administrators telling me they work hard and do what they can with the resources available but I'm here to tell you that if you don't have the resources, it's time to double up with another province or forget the whole thing. There is no benefit in doing anything half-assed.