New Contrail Requirements

ils09 · Post by **ils09** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:14 am

So I just learned about the recommended minimum hours set out for the big Oil companys by some aviation consultant called Contrail Consulting. I am not 100% sure but it sets a standard of about 3500hrs for any captain. Are there any stipulations for F/Os and what are everyone's thoughts on this.

It seems like one consultant has just grabbed us all by the balls.

It hurts!

ILS

alpha speed · Post by **alpha speed** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:19 am

Is this some crew transport company?
Never heard of it.

wha happen · Post by **wha happen** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:27 am

basically contrails is a company which crweates a list of "safe " companies to fly with. Now in alberta most of the charters are for oil field work, ussually hauling around the execs and other various important people to field sites, meetings, etc. So to get onto this list is a huge thing due to the fact that you can then get oil field contracts, big money for the owners. BUt they also set the time requirements for the pilots as well. Double edge sword.

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:13 am

It is indeeed a double-edged sword. True, the higher minimum raises the bar for companies. It also means that 3500 hour drivers command more cash.

Importantly for us, the audit is very thorough. This means that companies cannot Bullsh*t the training a pilot needs to safely do their job. It must be done, and in the timeframe the CARs provide for.

In the end, if a company does not meet the requirements, there is no screaming or finger pointing. They simply get a note saying see you next year.

This is a far better system than in the past, where each oil company had their own limits. 3500 hours was Esso's original standard. They permited 6 pilots per company to fly theri folks around, and you had to provide drug testing samples at really inconvenient times. Like when you were on the way out the door to fly a sked.

hz2p · Post by **hz2p** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:15 am

3500 hours really isn't a whole lot of time (for left seat turbine) but I would be interested to learn how they arrived at that number.

Do they have statistics that show that 3000 hour captains have more accidents than 4000 hour captains? Or did they just pick that number out of a hat?

sprucemonkey · Post by **sprucemonkey** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:42 am

Straight from here......

low n over · Post by **low n over** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:42 am

It's creating an ever growing experiance gap within the industries pilots. Many companies are no longer able to develope low timers. Without this natural progression of Canadians, companies must hire foriegn pilots to fill the void. Very noticable in the helicopter world these days. Anyone flying up around NW Alberta knows what I'm talking about, simply by monitoring 126.7 . Its absolute BS that it's come to this. Now if low timers are gonna make it they gotta go elsewhere. Oil patch flying is a hell of a lot easier than bush flyin up north, Diamonds and Squares. The sad thing is that many operations feeling the pinch of Contrail are doing very little to deal with the problem. They . money at seasonal higher time guys from all over the world, who know jack about the operation, and will only fly the cream of the fleet. Leaving the younger year round guys to never get a shot at upgrades. In effect they export all the quality turbine hours, turbine time being a big deal at contrail. Other things just make you shake your head, such as calling in a 3000hr pilot [on days off]to ferry a machine somewhere when theres a handfull of low timers sitting around working the ramp or home from the patch where they are operators [seasonal flying gig/running gas plants]. Also some heli companies pick up a handfull of machines way down in the states every year, it's a sweet flight that goes to the upper boys club, never having a low timer tag along or even a mid time person who could benifit from the exposure of seeing some aviation outside the oil patch. It all goes back to the big picture, things are only gonna get worse when outfits are not tuned into things they should be doing to help this ever growing experiance gap.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in the Fixed Wing side now that Big Red and Jazz are set to scoop alot of experianced drivers. Maybe then there will be some public outcry about what in the hell is happening to Canadian jobs.

Out of Control · Post by **Out of Control** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:21 am

Well said low and over. I think you need some days off.

wha happen · Post by **wha happen** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:30 am

exacytly, with the airlines looking for roughly 4000 hours, what is stopping these guys from jumping ship after 5 or 6 hundred hours. Then it leaves the operators screaming that they ant get guys to stay.

As for hiring outside of canada for the piltos. That is bullshit, im sorry but it is. If we cant go ove rthere and work on our licences, how the hell are they going to come here and take our jobs. im sorry but it pisses me off a little.

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:13 pm

The way it has worked for us is simple:
We looked at all the potentially upgradeable FOs in the company, and started the PIC u/s program with any of the closer ones, and did the upgrade rides with all the ones who were pretty much ready for the upgrade. As seats open up, they slide over, and their paycheck goes up.

We have 4 guys left who cannot hold an ATR for another 1000 hours. We've structured their schedule so they will fly 1000 hours this year.

While we have a handful of non-Canadian pilots at one international base, they are shut out of all domestic bases. Even then we have no OTS captains.

low n over · Post by **low n over** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:50 pm

I do need some days off. I'm about to get drunk in my hotel room and punch out the full length mirror due to the forecast and the fact that I've been on the ground since thurs.

Sounds like Borek is dealing with the issue. Doing alot of training JC ?
I hear BeauDel is no more, whats the story there [pm me if need be]
Dont tell me DH wrote off one there too.

LnO
[CH]

Gards · Post by **Gards** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:24 pm

North-Wright bought out Beaudel.

lobo · Post by **lobo** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:09 pm

Hey LnO why do you need time off? Next tour just take that those toys of yours with you and you can play anywhere with them taking out your frustrations, it will be like home except for the 4x4 and dirty bird around.

low n over · Post by **low n over** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:28 pm

Love to, but I dont think the good people of BC would be very receptive to a Navajo showing up from Alberta loaded with military small arms and crates of surplus ammo. Though the infield grass at CYXJ would be a great place to sight in my Tikka Tactical out to 700m or so. I could take over and claim the province in the name of King Ralph.

Now I'm Homesick.

ils09 · Post by **ils09** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:01 am

What the hell was that???

pushyboss · Post by **pushyboss** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:28 am

The key to the low time pilot versus insurance/contrail requirements is the operators comittment to upgrading from within, whenever possible. This may mean some extra management of the issue such as creating a "pilot under supervision" program. If an operator is comitted to the philosophy of "keeping it in house" then where there is a will there is a way. However many operators are looking for the easy way out. Before we bash these operators, there may be valid reasons for taking the easy road on this issue. Pilots have been known to finally get thru the in house program only to take their new Captain's PPC across the ramp to another operator. Sometimes for as little as a couple hundred bucks a month, forgetting the time and money that the operator spent on them.

The money pit is not bottomless. Most operators can either spend their money on better salaries and recruit higher time guys straight into the left seat, or spend their money on higher insurance premiums and long term upgrade training programs, but not both.

As an operator that is the rock and the hard place.

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:42 am

The money pit is not bottomless. Most operators can either spend their money on better salaries and recruit higher time guys straight into the left seat, or spend their money on higher insurance premiums and long term upgrade training programs, but not both.

Most operators can either spend their money on better salaries... We did that a while ago. hand in hand with that we realized that burnout was as big a source of attrition as cash, and arranged for rotation so that pilots in theory get the time with their families and friend to tough out the long work stretches
.... and recruit higher time guys straight into the left seat, :We do this when we run out of upgradeable guys, but bringing people cold into out organizational culture hasn't ben a great success with only a few exceptions
...or spend their money on higher insurance premiums : Because we spend the bucks on training and equipment, our premiums are not bad, despite the often unusual and remote nature of our business
...and long term upgrade training programs

:These have been in place for a while now, and frankly, I like seeing a bunch of captains who were, until recently, my co-pilots.

Adanac · Post by **Adanac** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:14 am

There are two points I want to address in this string:

First, Contrail and the companies that use this useless service. They are bothing lining them selves up for a large fall. Let me explain. With the increasing number of hours required for pilots to meet the contrail requirements, only the hire time pilots that are employed by the more hirer paying companies will fit the bill. Well how long will these small number of companies be able to do all the flying? Contrail is painting itself into a corner by limiting the number of companies it lets fly the oil patch. The demand for more aircraft is just going to grow and when the oil companies start asking for more planes they wont be able to find them cause contrail has limited the companies these oil companies can use. Now how will that look for contrail? Last I heard contrail "beat-up" on one of these top companies! So sounds like contrail may be "fethering the wrong engine" on this whole thing. Any coments from those in the know?

Second in regards to pilots jumping ship.. yes that is a bad thing and I have seen this happen many a time. But it takes two to dance right? Well if a pilot leaves for more bucks, it is a company that had to have hired that pilot is it not? Isn't this just as bad? So I don't think that the blame should be dumped just on the pilots. Companies that feel that they can save a couple bucks on training by hiring a fresh ppc from the compition are just fanning the fire. And what is to say that same pilot is not going to jump ship again when another carrot is dangled infront of them? But this is all hind site right?

Adanac

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:22 pm

First, Contrail and the companies that use this useless service. They are bothing lining them selves up for a large fall. Let me explain. With the increasing number of hours required for pilots to meet the contrail requirements, only the hire time pilots that are employed by the more hirer paying companies will fit the bill. Well how long will these small number of companies be able to do all the flying? Contrail is painting itself into a corner by limiting the number of companies it lets fly the oil patch. The demand for more aircraft is just going to grow and when the oil companies start asking for more planes they wont be able to find them cause contrail has limited the companies these oil companies can use. Now how will that look for contrail?

This useless service
The companies that use this service have nearly unlimited resources. Each insists on a safety audit of a company. I would rather prepare for one audt a year than the seven it would take otherwise. These guys are an ex-oil company safety officer, and an ex-TC inspector. Between them they screen companies from the maintenance and ops sides very carefully. A completed audit from these guys, and the TC audit is pretty much a walk in the park.
Well how long will these small number of companies be able to do all the flying?

As the oil patch heats up in intensity and goes north, service from larger carriers will fill the gap between pipeline construction centers to do the work.
At the same time, small companies that treat their employees fairly will continue with the crews they have.
The pipeline is not going to happen overnight. The shortfall between a pilot who was on last year's list to this year is 500 hours a year. Even in a slow company 500 hours in 365 days is pretty do-able.

Contrail is painting itself into a corner by limiting the number of companies it lets fly the oil patch.
Well, no. Contrail is contracted by the oil companies to audit potential contractors, not by the airlines who hope to fly for the oil companies. If Contrail were to come to the oil companies and say: We have nobody in AB,BC, or Sask that meets the requirements, the oil companies would solicit companies from farther afield who met the standards. And Pay.
The oil companies from a risk management standpoint would rather hear that nobody was good enough to fly them and pay extra than have a fatal crash and make the national news. Helping to avoid that is Contrails raison d'etre.
When the oil companies start asking for more planes they wont be able to find them
During the construction of the James Bay energy projects & the construction of the DewLine and Mid Canada Lines, aircraft from all over Canada were flying in. If they want a particular skill set, they will look wherever they have to to get the job done. Not just Southern AB.

low n over · Post by **low n over** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:48 pm

True Contrail catering companies are like Editted in Calgary. All twins with outragous multi time requirments, especialy for the Piston FO's. They exist just to do some winter crew changes and core halls, pay shit, get shut down regularly, and go through more guys than the russian army. While the whole time fearing Contrail more than transport. This VanH has hijacked the industry with his own version of TC. Look at Editted website, 150multi for a Navajo FO and 500 mutli for navajo Capt. I remember when you could get on a rare bear metro with 1000tt and 100 multi. Wonder what these big subscribers would think knowing that there flight crew were living in poverty in calgary, didnt get any sleep cause the other 3 guys in the apartment were getting loaded all night, and were so broke that they figured they had nothing to lose "I should loop it, right f$#ckin now, I should just loop the S$#t outta this baby an see the look on there faces" "Cmon Capt I gotta get to my real job at Cash Converters" . Shirt and tie horses$#t.

greenwich · Post by **greenwich** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:44 pm

Lots of good comments!

What interests me is what is going to happen to Contrail Requirements when the airlines start hiring again. I keep hearing this rumor that AC plans to pick-up 600 guys in the next 12 month. WJ has scheduled a couple more ground-schools for the fall. Then there's Jazz and CanJet...and what about JetsGo???

Point being that Contrail has had it easy since 9/11 because the industry has not been hiring! The market became (and still is) saturated with 3,000h-plus guys getting paid sh1t to fly Navajo's and King Airs! Believe me, this group of guys will all disappear quickly when the airlines (i.e. AC) start hiring.

So when this supply of higher-time pilots starts thinning-out, the avaition companies will be forced to band-together and tell Contrail to drop the requirements. If Contrail doesn't drop the requirements the avaition companies will have to band-together and approach the Oil and Gas companies and ask them to drop Contrail!!

G

Adanac · Post by **Adanac** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:17 pm

My guess, regardless of what happens, will be the latter.... Contrail should take a good look around, the world won't be the same this winter.

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:28 am

They exist just to do some winter crew changes and core halls, pay shit, get shut down regularly, and go through more guys than the russian army. While the whole time fearing Contrail more than transport....Wonder what these big subscribers would think knowing that there flight crew ..., didnt get any sleep cause the other 3 guys in the apartment were getting loaded all night, and were so broke that they figured they had nothing to lose

Well, thing one, they should fear an audit if they are not in compliance.

And... thing two, (as they have done many tiimes in the past) they would do as they have done in the past, advise the oil company safety officer, and tell him their suspicions re your remarks, and the company would be suspended from the list. It would give them more time to: "Cmon Capt I gotta get to my real job at Cash Converters"

twinpratts · Post by **twinpratts** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:31 pm

I heard Contrail is willing to count half of your Co-joe time as PIC equivalent (a la ATPL requirement). This should help some!

wha happen · Post by **wha happen** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:36 pm

problem still lies with the guys getting the yyc job to begin with