CpnCrunch wrote:What's the reasoning behind ATC blocking off the entire airspace when there is an IFR approach, rather than slotting the planes in? In that case, what is the point of having ATC at all?
Simple, its a non radar environment so they have to provide enroute levels of separation. Its usually non controlled below 12500 so you aren't going to get cleared past the IAF or anywhere less than 1000' above the lower aircraft until he reports down and clear. Good airmanship dictates if your company SOP allows it to cancel the IFR, keep the alerting service, then the other aircraft can get cleared to a lower altitude and start his approach.
In a radar environment arrival ATC will sequence the aircraft, and it's all a moot point, but that isn't what we're discussing here
rigpiggy wrote:Don't forget the guy who calls for clearance before he even has the engines started. or should that be a separate post/rant
It's called an IFR pre clearance and is common at many airports Jazz flys to. A reserve crew at an unfamiliar airport might call for the pre clearance out of habit. I know I have.
It's easy to criticize when you fly to the same few airports several times a week but it's not uncommon to have eastern crews flying out west and vice versa.
Now, I'm completely unfamiliar with said airport but what altitude are IFR aircraft cleared out of controlled airspace? How far back?
Nark wrote:I've forgotten most of the TC regs, but isn't a visual approach and IFR approach?
It is here in the USofA.
Our ops don't allow us to cancel IFR until we are down. We fly into Canada all the time, so forgive us Yankees.
A visual approach is not an IFR approach, you're now required to maintain VFR and clear of other traffic on your own, including the missed approach. You would have to contact ATC and get a clearance prior to going IMC or into controlled airspace again.
If you asked for the contact approach then you can basically fly it anyway you want clear of cloud, but you keep your IFR and traffic separation with ATC, and in the event of a missed approach you can fly the IFR procedure as published with no requirement to remain clear of cloud etc.
If you cancel the IFR you can still maintain the alerting services associated with them and call down and clear to close the flight plan. Once you cancel, then ATC isn't responsible for separation anymore and he can clear another aircraft for the approach because you are now operating with no IFR in uncontrolled airspace.
If your company requires you to maintain your IFR and ATC separation to the ground, then there is nothing you can do. However most operators allow you to cancel IFR and keep alerting services for SAR purposes.
Since Jazz has identified a risk in crews operating into unfamiliar airports, they have decided not to allow them to cancel ifr the first time in. Fair enough. Air canada and Vernon anyone?
turbo-prop wrote:It makes me mad to when people don't cancel their IFR to help others, but if it was clear blue skies then you could have canceled your IFR under 12,500 and kept the alerting services or went company note.
Turbo Prop
If it is so beautiful out why don't you accept the risk and take the VFR departure???
Other company policies and procedures have been put into place for a reason. It's follow them or get out unless there is safety reason. Same at WJ and AC.
As posted elsewhere a 737 NG can tell your CP that you were not on a stabilized approach at 1000 agl and didn't go around as per company procedure.
As for getting a clearance before start up, why not, worst case is they give you clearance valid until time or no clearance at all. Why start up in an RJ only to sit for 20 minutes waiting for a clearance? Hell we don't even start the 2nd engine on the taxi at yyc when taxiing for 34 until we are south of 25. Most carriers operate this way.
turbo-prop wrote:It makes me mad to when people don't cancel their IFR to help others, but if it was clear blue skies then you could have canceled your IFR under 12,500 and kept the alerting services or went company note.
Turbo Prop
If it is so beautiful out why don't you accept the risk and take the VFR departure???
Other company policies and procedures have been put into place for a reason. It's follow them or get out unless there is safety reason. Same at WJ and AC.
As posted elsewhere a 737 NG can tell your CP that you were not on a stabilized approach at 1000 agl and didn't go around as per company procedure.
As for getting a clearance before start up, why not, worst case is they give you clearance valid until time or no clearance at all. Why start up in an RJ only to sit for 20 minutes waiting for a clearance? Hell we don't even start the 2nd engine on the taxi at yyc when taxiing for 34 until we are south of 25. Most carriers operate this way.
TH
Did you even read what I wrote??? I was not going against Jazz. I was saying the intial poster could've canceled his IFR and went in visual. You can call my chief pilot if you want because yes I do take a VFR departure out of some airports to speed things up.
If it is safe to do so - it's good airmanship to cancel IFR and procede on company note or otherwise.
Case in point - 2 birds racing from YMO-YTS OVC060 clear above and clear below
a/c A - gets cleared for an approach (usually below 050) and doesn't cancel IFR
a/c B - gets stuck in a hold at 060 (to protect airspace in case of missed at 050) 10 miles out until a/c A lands and clears
Just to clarify, I don't fly to any Canadian destinations anymore, since Emirates moved our one Canadian destination (CYYZ) to the A380. I'm in the left seat of the B777, not at Jazz. But I used to regularly fly into places like CYXS, CYCG, CYDQ and points all across Canada. I seem to recall that due to the terrain and accompanying lack of radar converge down low in, for example, CYYD, ATC procedural separation could leave one waiting in the hold for a bit for the preceding arrival to land. I'm not unaware of how the system works. It sounds like some people don't . ATC doesn't delay anyone for the fun of it, they have separation criteria, which are usually based on their capability to SEE us. Which is in turn, sometimes limited by the geography or simply budget. There's a reason this issue crops up primarily in BC, with it's high terrain.
But a couple of things. tbaylx is correct: visual approach is not an IFR approach, but it IS still an IFR procedure in the sense that the IFR clearance is still in effect. The approach is flown in visual conditions, and the pilot is now responsible for terrain separation and from other aircraft. But it does not cancel IFR, and it isn't a VFR procedure. A key consideration of a visual approach is, what are you going to do in a missed approach? The visual approach does not have a published miss approach procedure.
As far as cancelling an IFR clearance, our ops spec forbids it - we are an IFR-only operation. I assumed that most airline operators had similar policies, but perhaps some are more flexible. If that's the case with Jazz, then yes, he could cancel to expedite the other aircraft's approach. Our Ops Manual gives specific guidance of the order of approaches we are required to use, if available:
Approach Selection
Preferred Order/
Approach Types
1
ILS or RNAV
2
RNAV Visual (RVFP)
3
LOC
4
VOR
5
NDB
6
Radar Vector to Visual Approach
7
Circling Approach *
8
Visual Circuit Approach **
* Circling Approaches at night are not authorised
** Visual Circuit Approach shall only be used for Base Training Flights and expeditious returns following take-off.
So you can see, we ARE allowed to conduct visual approaches - but they are way, way down the list of preference. The only place we routinely do them is in the US, because they will often clear us for one without our asking for one. In that case we just fly it backed up with the appropriate navaids and make sure we've briefed a plan in the case of a missed approach. As far as circling, it's incredibly rare in a widebody, but yes, I've had to do it, in Pakistan. I just wouldn't choose it voluntarily if a safer option was available - that's the point here.
Accordingly I stand my comment that it still wouldn't be the best decision in the original post for Jazz to cancel simply for the convenience of the a/c following, and disparaging them for not doing so is just…poor. VFR flying isn't "scary", not even in a 250-ton aircraft. It just doesn't make for good risk management to toss your IFR clearance so in the event of a missed approach you can take your passengers for a nice little circuit, possibly shared with VFR traffic, possibly at an airport neither pilot has ever been.
I'm curious to know just how much delay was actually incurred?
Anyway, I realize that flying a King Air into Terrace isn't the same thing as flying into Bangkok for the first time. But Jazz is still an airline, and they have every duty to use the safest procedure available, every time. And no one has the right to question them even if it costs them a few minutes. Just bloody deal with it like a professional: carry the fuel to hold if you need to, and wait your turn for the approach. Next problem.
There was an accident in CYKA many years ago caused specifically by a PA31 on approach cancelling IFR to "help out" Jazz on the ground waiting to go. Subsequently the PA31 got lost in the rocks and crashed, killed one of the pilots. I'd just hate for anyone to feel pressure to cancel because of threads like this.
Incidentally for the Fort Mac'ers, when we operate DXB-SFO or DXB-LAX, we often hold CYMM as a diversionary airport. I can tell you, if we have to divert into there, we won't be cancelling IFR, for anyone.
When flying in VFR conditions, in a non-radar environment, do you really think you are "safer" by operating on an IFR clearance as opposed to cancelling?
While I respect your knowledge and experience, I find most of the ME/intl operational procedures to be somewhat irrelevant to the original discussion.
Even your snide comment about diverting to ymm is a red herring, obviously you'd only be diverting there for some sort of emergency, in which case no one expects you to cancel.
In respect to the oil sands, you say you've been gone from Canada for a few years, do you know the scope of the current aviation environment there now?
705.46 No person shall operate an aeroplane in night VFR flight unless
(a) the flight is conducted within 25 nautical miles of the departure aerodrome; or
(b) in the case of an IFR flight, the pilot-in-command establishes visual contact with the intended aerodrome of landing and receives an authorization from the appropriate air traffic control unit or flight service station to conduct a visual approach.
It is my understanding that TC's interpretation of b) is that conducting a visual approach at night does not mean that you are not required to be on an IFR flight plan. Additionally Jazz, CMA, AC and anyone else that code shares with a Star Alliance carrier is a certified IOSA carrier and the IOSA rules do not allow VFR at night period.
To add my lower time GA voice to the chatter, I don't fly vfr, or cancel Ifr at night at strange airports, like out of my home region. I read a couple of accidents from pilots who did cancel Ifr at night, misjudged and hit terrain.
Day time I cancel IFR when weather is good. ( i usually file IFR ).
Donald, lighten up man! The YMM comment was meant to be a joke, not a snide remark. Guess I should have used a smiley face..? I did mention that there are some differences between international widebody ops and northern GA ops. Still, it was a bag run Navajo that ploughed it in in Kamloops. So I do feel protective of the low-time guys who are earnestly trying to show they're "team players" by cancelling...and then pay, big time.
So how about this. If we can help keep things moving along by cancelling when conditions and your company ops permit, fine. But if ever in doubt - keep the IFR. Tie goes to the ., as they say. And if you're the one waiting behind for the approach, for god's sake don't pressure the guy. Not cool.
I'm curious why Jazz' eastern pilots can be dropped into a western route, both pilots, without having done a route check? I know IFR procedures are the same procedures anywhere in Canada, but personally I would be a very nervous passenger going into Cranbrook or Smithers or Terrace (not to mention Castlegar or even Kelowna) if it was the pilot's first time?
I don't have the strength to confront the CARS after having eaten a ton of pancakes and maple syrup (mmmm maple syrup) and I am very glad I don't have a medical tomorrow, but maybe Hedley might look up the rules in his newly-downloaded copy of the CARS? I'm pretty sure the FARS cover this but I'm not going there either.
As a Jazz Q400 pilot (you know, Lurch, not a transport category aircraft but an old prop puddle jumper...sheesh), I have been reading this with some measure of head-shaking and disbelief at some of the utter nonsense being posted out there. The amount of "You don't fly here so you don't know anything" mentality is rather amusing actually... so I will wade in. I don't normally do this, but just for a laugh, here I go.
Some points about Jazz ops, and I know some of this has been covered.
1. No VFR at night. Ever.
2. We cannot depart on a VFR flight plan daylight. We used to, regularly... I was at Air BC back in the day, and back then you could slide YVR-YYJ VFR to your hearts content. But not anymore. The rules all changed when we became a member of Star Alliance... they don't allow that. So..................
3. We can, indeed, cancel our IFR under certain circumstances. And we do, a lot. So if one of our pilots happened to hold up their IFR, well..I guess they felt most comfortable doing that. And the 74 people behind them were probably glad they did. But in all seriousness, we do cancel the IFR a lot.
4. We also fly out VFR on charters that aren't covered by the Star Alliance. I have done so regularly out of Massett on the D8-300. Sqwak 1200 and fly along the beach for a while till we feel like getting an IFR. Hey, we like to fly too.
5. So all kidding aside, during daytime visual conditions, we are allowed to cancel the IFR (I won't quote the ops manual for all the criteria), if we choose to do so. And a lot of us do so. And maybe some don't, but if that's their decision then it is the one they feel safest doing and therefore it is the correct one. And I could care less what someone else thinks about that.
Believe it or not, some of us at Jazz actually do use good airmanship. And that includes not cancelling if we don't feel comfortable doing so. My responsibility is not to whomever else is out there but rather to the piece of metal I happen to be flying at the time (of course I have a responsibility to other aircraft but that's not what I meant).
Circling, as an IFR manoeuver, is also out these days. We can, and do, use a visual manoeuver to get to another runway (think Terrace) but it is not technically "circling" as per IFR procedures.
And we can, and do, take a visual departure on an IFR flight plan. As for getting an IFR clearance early, that is done at most airports that have a tower, but in places that are non-radar, we get our clearances after we start and taxi (Kamloops radio, Jazz 123 ready to taxi, IFR Kelowna).... I just bring that up because someone mentioned it earlier why we get our clearances before engine start sometimes.
Just to add there are some airports in central and eastern Canada that do not have a tower (FSS) where you can get a pre-taxi clearance before you start engines. Sudbury and Saint John are two examples.
I did mention that there are some differences between international widebody ops and northern GA ops. Still, it was a bag run Navajo that ploughed it in in Kamloops. So I do feel protective of the low-time guys who are earnestly trying to show they're "team players" by cancelling...and then pay, big time.
