College and Foreign Pilot Issue

[Cargo Fire]

Hey Everyone:

I know this is a brand new account. I haven't posted on here for years as I hate how every topic seems to get derailed; and turns into a pissing contest. So; I rarely come on here; which is why I can not remember my password on my original account which I last posted on many years ago. Thus the brand new account. Wanted to clear this up as brand new accounts always seem suspect.

My question is; would not this entire Foreign Pilot Issue, be a good thing for the College to get involved in, and go to the Media with as a United Group of Pilots? Why is it that Gilles (who is doing a fantastic job in my opinion, and deserves Kudos), is going this alone?

This is an issue that affects all of us and our careers in the future of Canadian Aviation. If all our flying was allowed to be outsourced; eventually we wouldn't need a Canadian College of Professional Pilots?

From what I have gathered; the College is turning out to have goals of becoming another pseudo regulatory body and an oversight/discipline committee. I would rather pay my $60 to an organization that is going to take a stand, and speak out publicly, as well as in private meetings with the politicians and bureaucrats that are allowing Canadian jobs to be outsourced to the lowest foreign bidder. I don't feel it is right that this is being left to an individual who is doing this on his own accord; and investing his own considerable time and resources into sticking up for all of us. (Don't give up the fight Gilles; I just think you need and deserve help).

Maybe I am off base here; but I think this would be the ideal issue for the College to jump all over. Seriously; who can say that it is wrong for an organization that is 100% funded by Canadian Pilots; to stick up for keeping Canadian Pilot jobs available for Canadian Pilots?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Hello Cargo Fire,

Thank you for your support. I have talked to them. And I am a member, number 70 I think. And I will maintain my membership.

I do not know if they monitor this forum and if one of them could perhaps explain why they are not being vocal about this issue. They have explained it to me but I would rather not be their mouthpiece here. However you are not the first to bring this up on AvCanada.

Gilles

[green bastard]

It's time for the College to take a stand on this issue, nothing could be more relevant for them. Except the College of Professional German/Czechoslovakia Pilots in Canada Association.

[confusedalot]

I admit that I had not taken this issue seriously, but I think it is time that I did.

I'm in. Better late than never as they say.

[Panama Jack]

Two questions come to mind here:

1) Are any of you guys CPPC members?
2) If so, have you been reading your e-mails?

If you answered "yes" to both questions, you will have read a briefing sent out on the 20th of April and know that the College is aware of hot topics, like this one, but holding off on developing policy towards issues until after the leadership has been democratically elected by its membership, which is expected to happen later this year.

[Cargo Fire]

I am actually a member of the College and have contributed my $60. I have also read the emails that have been sent out. I admit; usually fairly quickly as they come through on my Blackberry when I am usually out occupied with other activities.

What most of the emails have concentrated on (correct me if I am wrong); is increasing membership (now over the magic 1000 members that was the goal repeated in most newsletters); and volunteers to stand for election later this year.

First off; I do respect and appreciate, the time and effort put forth by Tom M, and the various other members to get this off the ground. I am sure it has been work intensive, tiring and probably fairly thankless.

However; my argument is that this organization; regardless of whether or not the board has been democratically elected; has seen fit to collect over $60,000 in dues, that in my understanding is to establish a college to promote the interests of Canadian Pilots. Now; whether or not the board has been elected; they are all that we have to work with until such time as elections are held. Since the Foreign Pilot Issue is front and centre at this moment; I would like to see the board that I; along with 1000+ other pilots sent their money to; use some of the resources to assist Gilles in what I believe is an issue critical to the future of Canadian Aviation.

When that tool on Power and Politics was reading Sunwings written response; and Gilles was left hanging out to dry to defend the rest of us on his own; I would have liked the Canadian College of Professional Pilots who are supposedly representing all the pilots in Canada (long term goal anyway); to have also had a representative on that show; or at least our own biased letter; that could have been stated on air as fact; the same way that Sunwings was. By the way Gilles; you did a great job on that interview; as slanted towards Sunwing as it was. Would have been nice to have 1000+ fellow pilots publicly back you in my opinion.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Yes. But how about ALPA with its 2800 members ? How about ACPA with its 3200 members ? How about the Westjet Pilolt's Association with its 1200 members ? How about CAW which represents several airlines as well ?

Where is everyone ? I was told they are all supportive and making progress behind the scenes.

[Takeoff OK]

If the College wants to increase membership, I highly recommend they make this issue a top priority right now, and in a very vocal manner. I, for one, will not join the college unless I see them taking a strong stand in the most important issue to ever hit Canadian aviation. The time is now, not in several months after an election. No offense to anyone in the College, but put up or shut up.

[Takeoff OK]

I don't know; maybe it's just a Canadian psyche problem, but I'd bet a million dollars that an American equivalent of the College, in the same situation, would be shouting from the rooftops right now. They would likely also see the obvious benefit that in doing so, they would be dramatically increasing their exposure and the likelihood of new membership. Maybe I'm wrong, though...

WAKE UP, GUYS!!! THIS IS YOUR MOMENT! Don't f*ck it up.

[Panama Jack]

You are probably right, Takeoff OK.

AOPA and EAA are seemingly much more aggressive than COPA, and there are many more parallels between the US NGO's and their more politically docile Canadian cousins. I am not sure I always like the NRA-style lobby tactics, but at least they seem to get result. It is a reflection of a Canadian cultural quality which I feel changed to admire, but I digress.

I would rather the College get itself properly organized before it goes off half-cocked and sinks. I don't know what this organization's administrative plans are, but I think Tom M. Is driving a recruitment ( and revenue) drive because (I hope) this will not be strictly another aviation club, but more like an operation which will have some staff and retain some experts (lawyers, etc). That will allow it to be more effective than having a few popularly elected guys with big mouths and a bull-horn. With that in mind, $60,000 is a pretty tight budget.

The fact that it has taken so long for 1000 people to get together to support such a movement (lots of talk ever since I got into aviation, but little action) and that it has gotten so far is something to be optimistic about. Lets let it go through its proper start-up phase before we start expecting overnight miracles. As for what we want the CPPC to be (and how much we are willing to support it) remains to be pondered, debated, and agreed upon.

[Takeoff OK]

I agree with you about half-cocked hyperbole, Jack. But this is not the time -- nor the topic -- to worry about that. If there is any mandate that the college can possibly put forward, this issue is it. It will not be their swan song, it will be their birth, but only if they seize the day. I am 100% behind an official regulatory college that actually has relevance, and balls. But you must start somewhere, with an issue, if (as you said) you want to be more than just another aviation club. This is the issue. Let the structural matters settle where they may over time, but grab this bit NOW! There will never be another opportunity comparable to this to become relevant. If the college leadership cannot see this, than they are already irrelevant, and will never have my support. Sorry, but it is what it is.

Again, wake up guys. You have been handed the exact opportunity you need to become something. Let it go, and you deserve to fail.

[mbav8r]

TakeoffOK, please don't be offended by this, but in your own words, "put up or shut up"
I became a member early on because I felt something had to change in this industry and this was the first sign of change for the good, that I could see. I did not make it a condition, that I must see change before I contirbute, more like a blind faith kind of thing.
The college will take the direction the members want it to, so why not be a member and have your voice heard, why not run for office and take it the direction you want it to?
I can tell you this, I have not seen any benefit to date, yet I WILL be renewing my membership regardless.
If ALPA and their significant funds can't effect significant change, how could an orginization in it's infancy do much of anything?

Disclaimer; this is my personal opinion.
I feel I can complain about our government because I voted. If I did not vote, what would give me the right to complain.
I will vote for the person who runs that most reflects the direction I would like to see the college go, then and only then will I be able to complain about the direction it's taking. All due respect, you do not at this point have the right to complain about the college, "put up or shut up"

[Gilles Hudicourt]

If ALPA and their significant funds can't effect significant change, how could an orginization in it's infancy do much of anything?

Correction: ALPA has not made any change because they think that their mandate is to always lobby the government and never fight it.

I do not share that opinion. A budget for a good law firm would have yielded results. My MEC alone contributes about a million dollars to ALPA every year.

A few years ago, when a company in the States was on strike, we were asked to make special contributions to help support our colleagues. We all wrote out our cheques. Where is ALPA today ? Having cappuccinos with government officials in YOW.

[Cargo Fire]

Guys:

I agree with some of what you have been saying. But personally; I am trying to keep this in the simplest terms as far as the College goes; and as to what I believe they should be doing in regards to the most important issue Canadian Aviation has faced during most of our careers.

Gilles:

Yes; I too agree that all our major respective Unions/Associations should be backing you in what should be all of ours common goal. However; the sad reality is that it will probably never happen. The Unions/Associations are all biased towards their respective members and goals that directly benefit them. And I suppose that it probably should be that way as that is their mandate. ALPA is going to fight for issues that directly affect Jazz pilots; ACPA for issues that directly impact Air Canada Pilots (remember their appearances on TV during their negotiations and eventual arbitration last year), and the WJPA has always represented their members in issues directly related to their dealings with WJ Mgmt in YYC. That is all of their mandates. However; I would like to see the members off each of these Unions/Associations, tell their representatives that they would like ALPA, ACPA, WJPA to send $50 for each member in their organization to the College. There is 7200 instant members, and a hell of a war chest now to get the College going on this issue that could wind up defining the career paths of a lot of us. Realistically; that is all the we can probably expect out of the Unions etc at this point. I would love to see them front and centre with you fighting the fight; but we all know how this industry works. Until we see foreign pilots at Air Canada, Westjet, or Jazz; they will all make the appropriate head nods and grunts when you speak; but they won't be standing up front and centre with you. It's the old "it's a good idea; but it's not affecting me personally..........yet".

This is why I am asking where the College is on this issue. They were supposedly formed to represent the interests of all Canadian Pilots and issues directly affecting Canadian Aviation. I personally don't see a bigger issue at the moment. Yes, yes, wages, duty days, unscrupulous operators etc etc. Those issues are never going to go away unfortunately, and there will always be a fight to fight on such issues; but this Foreign Pilot Issue could define whether or not a lot of us ever have jobs at all in the future. That is why I feel the College needs to jump in now.

Panama Jack:

I agree that $60K is not a big war chest. But I think Gilles may disagree with that statement. Look at how much that one man has accomplished alone....no war chest. Just a belief and determination to do what is right. And I don't think most of us could put a value on the time and effort he has dedicated to this issue; on all of our behalf's. That's why I think $5 or $10K could have been spent on a legal opinion; and professionally drafted statement that could have been presented to the media and our elected representatives. A statement that could have come from an association that is supposedly set up to represent all of our interests. I agree that it's not a great idea to run off unorganized and half cocked. But again; they have raised $60K. The timing of this issue dictates action now; and using $5 or $10K out of that money raised; to represent all of us with a legally obtained opinion and a professionally drafted statement, that could be presented by the College president as the face and voice of all Canadian Pilots is not a half cocked action in my opinion.

Like you; I don't want this to become another aviation club. I sure don't want it to just become another board to spank and discipline a few wayward pilots and work as a regulatory body. I want this to be an organization that will represent my interests as a Canadian Pilot and the interests of all Canadian Pilots. and to me this is the biggest issue in Canadian Aviation, and they should be front and centre in it. They shouldn't be using excuses to back away from it.

Gilles said himself that he is a member of the College. I don't know why they haven't approached him and asked him to be the official College Representative on this Issue. Give him a title and some funds to assist him. Then the next time he is on TV or in a meeting with a Government Official; he is not Gilles the pilot from AT (the competition to Sunwing); he is Gilles the Official Representative of the CPPC and is speaking on behalf of all Canadian Pilots. As a member of the CPPC; I say that I don't think anyone could have done a better job than Gilles on this issue to date. I think we should all be officially getting behind him. As a member of the CPPC; that is my vote!

Takeoff OK

Thanks for supporting Gilles in your statements. Now I would ask you as Mbav8r has said; to take that leap of blind faith and contribute your $60 and join the College so that you too can have a say in what direction you would like this organization to go. I suspect that you also don't want this to just be an aviation club or another disciplinary committee. As a paid member; you can have a voice, and also write them and ask them to make Gilles (assuming he agrees) to be the Official Representative of the CPPC on this critical issue.

[Cargo Fire]

Before anyone jumps all over me and derails the topic; I do realize that WJPA, ACPA etc did contribute roughly $10 for each member to get the College started (therefore there has been more than $60K raised), and that is why it is only $50 for those members to join the College vs $60 for everyone else. What I am saying, is that if those organizations contributed $10 per member then; and they truly support what Gilles is doing; then jump in with the other $50; make your membership official CPPC members; and therefore fund the fight. Maybe WJPA or ACPA doesn't want to publicly go on TV and condemn their competitions hiring practices; but they can fund the fight through their membership contributions. It's the next best thing to being on TV with Gilles; and the lawyers and publicists that it will fund, will certainly go a long way with lobbying the politicians to stop this practice and threat to Canadian Aviation.

[Takeoff OK]

It's true; since I am not a member of the college, I have no right to complain about them. But I am not complaining, I am simply telling them to seize the day. If I see a public statement put out by the college on this issue, I will send my $60 the next day.

[justwork]

It's true; since I am not a member of the college, I have no right to complain about them. But I am not complaining, I am simply telling them to seize the day. If I see a public statement put out by the college on this issue, I will send my $60 the next day.

Everyone needs this, seize the day I mean. It's $60 out of your pocket but it's one more member for the college, giving them more members is more important than money. In my opinion the more members, the more valid the college will become.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I think all Canadian professional pilots should adhere to the College right away, regardless. Their perceived weakness, justified or not, is for lack of members. The more members, the more weight they will carry.

Gilles

[Changes in Latitudes]

I think all Canadian professional pilots should adhere to the College right away, regardless. Their perceived weakness, justified or not, is for lack of members. The more members, the more weight they will carry.

Gilles

I'd prefer just give you the $60 to be honest.