dont lift the flaps in the flare

[RadicalRadial]

throughout my commercial training at a certain club (once I have everything signed off you will know who Im talking about) I was trained by my instructor to lift the flaps (C172) in the flare to drop the airplane onto the runway when doing SFL or power off 180s. Come around flight test day, I raise the flaps to touch down at the previous specified point and the examiner asks if Im insane and says the dreaded words: "that was a 4 but now its a fail". In the end I told him that I had been trained to do it like that and he eventually turned it into a 2.
Who else uses this technique? Why did my instructor teach me this incorrect technique? a SFL should be done with full flaps. Why the F*** did he teach me otherwise?
I am not on speaking terms with him anymore so I cant ask him myself and the club that it took place at has shunned me for leaving after they quoted me 30 hours until a CPL reccomend. I went to a different club and got the recommend after one lesson. I also got 110 on the flight test. What is that, 83%? fine by my standards. Again you will hear me giving advice on avoiding this club once I have all the paperwork done.

[digits_]

I've always been taught to use flaps as you wish on a simulated forced landing. If possible, full flaps, if you don't make the field, wait for it or skip it all together.

However, one of my instructors showed me that you could indeed raise the flaps during the flare in emergencies if your flare becomes to long and you don't want to slam the nosewheel in the runway by lowering the nose to much. This was on a low wing airplane in a hot day on a concrete runway. He added "never do that on an exam". I only feel comfortable to do that on an airplane where you can feel the flaps (like a pa28), not one with electrical flaps like a c152 or so. I guess the dynamics change too much to use this as a 'normal' technique.

Just my 2 cents.

[MCB]

That's probably the most ridiculous thing I've heard. What I was taught was to touchdown, apply braking, add back pressure to maintain weight on wheels. Finally, flaps could be retracted during roll out to further keep weight on wheels which in turn would increase braking effectiveness and tire friction.

Retracting the flaps while still in the air seems like a bad idea for many reasons... Not faulting you, but you won't be the first nor the last to be faulted during an evaluation for something you've been improperly taught.

[5x5]

It's amazing what can be taught. It's also amazing how people can interpret what other people said. So please, I'm not trying to start an argument about what the instructor said and what the student heard - I've been in plenty of flight test debriefs where a student says either "My instructor never told/taught me that" or "My instructor did tell/teach me that" when that is not what was done.

At the same time, it's all part of the frailty of human communication.

As well, I'm sure some people do teach strange techniques. Personally, decreasing the flap configuration near to the ground is not something I would teach or recommend. Way too many bad possible outcomes and not many (if any) positive ones I can think of. Doing something like that in order to make the spot is questionable. How important is making the spot compared to a safe landing? And almost without fail, any small aircraft can land quite a bit shorter than the runway it needs to takeoff. So the only time you would need to use some wild technique to land really, really short would be if that was where you wanted the plane to spend the rest of its years.

And again, not picking on anybody, but the appropriate response to flaring too long is neither reducing flaps or forcing the nose down, but a simple, common and universally accepted procedure - the overshoot. Flying 101.

As a final bit of advice for anyone reading this and taking flight training - take an active role in your training. Don't just worry about the cost (although that is important) read books about flying, talk to others and even read internet forums. When other sources seem to be in conflict with what you are being taught (or understand) challenge your instructor. They may well be able to explain more clearly what you have misunderstood, but if not or they get defensive, check with the CFI. Any school worth training at will have no issues with you asking questions and dealing with the CFI. The school and its staff is there to serve you and provide effective training. If they're not willing to listen to you and help insure you're getting your money's worth, take your business elsewhere.

[cpt.sam]

Lifting the flaps right before touchdown will plant you firmly on the runway.
Planting firmly on the runway in an emergency situation with restricted runway available may be in your best interest.
Planting firmly on the runway for shitz'n'giggles is not likely going to help your technique, nor the airplane.
Also keep in mind, w/b differences may significantly alter the "planting" characteristics!

[RadicalRadial]

When it comes to being misunderstood, that is definitely not the case. Not trying to start an argument either, but I just want to be clear. Both me and a good friend left this flying club for another to finish off our CPL and we both had the same instructor who also taught him this technique.
We are both always challenging eachother and helping eachother learn new things so I would safely say that we take an active roll in our training.
As for management not listening to our needs and not willing to ensure we get our moneys worth, we did exactly what you suggest and we took our business elewhere. The ops. manager at our old club even refused to fax my training records to the club where we finished off... but to avoid getting off topic as I will be doing a full on review of this club once all my papers have been processed.
Is the general consensus that this is an improper technique and an istructor should not be teaching this as a landing technique?
I will add that he never told us not to do it on the exam. He expected to see it on EVERY SFL and power off 180.

[photofly]

I don't have much to add, except that when it comes to checkrides, it's usually best to follow the procedures in the POH. I don't think raising the flaps in the flare is in the POH.

[slam525i]

I just read this on last month's Plane and Pilot where there was an article specifically on flaps. It was the first time I've ever heard of raising the flaps on the flare. I had to read it a few times to make sure I read it right as I never heard of it before.

Edit:
I found it.

Tuesday, April 9, 2013
The Logic Of Flaps

Flaps make pilots’ lives easier—for those aviators who know how to use them
By Bill Cox

If the runway is short and there's a need to plant it on and stop it short, consider raising the flaps immediately upon touchdown to place more weight on the main gear and enhance braking action. If you have considerable time in the airplane and fully understand its landing characteristics, you might even try what some Mooney pilots call "autoland". Once you're established in the flare a foot or so above the ground, trip the flaps full up and be ready to cushion the touchdown with plenty of back elevator. If you do it right, you can generate greasers practically every time. Do it wrong, and you may not be happy with the result. As mentioned above, this trick is only for highly experienced pilots with plenty of hours in type.

[Old Dog Flying]

Like the internet, do not believe half of the crap in Plane and Pilot..it is so full of fertilizer.

One of my students serverely damaged a PA-28-140 after reading a garbage artical in P&P and then tried the same technique during his flight test..he just would not listen because it was printed in an American magazine. Needless to say he failed.

Barney

[crazy_aviator]

Ignorance is not bliss Those of us Pilots who have been away from the puppy mills for awhile and actually use the airplanes abilities ( bush piloting ?) will KNOW that a Cessna with manual flaps are favoured over electric flaps for this very purpose ! Another thing , pulling up to 30-40 degree flaps on a robertson equipped 185 and many others on floats on take-off before rotation speed REALLY aids in getting it off the water. There are speculators and there are those who KNOW. What you have learned in school are just the BASICS

[Old Dog Flying]

Crazy-a: the use of flaps for a jump t/o works fine as you mentioned even on a Cherokee 140 on wheels but the original post was retacting the flaps while in the flare for a landing..not the best way to wreck a plane but...not recommended.

Retracting the flaps immediately upon touch down to get the weight firmly on the wheels for maximum braking is recommended...and we are talking about the basics.

Barney

[High Flyin]

Compare the take off charts to the landing charts. Next read the notes. The take off distances are predicated on using short field technique. Usually, this means you can't get much shorter then this. Therefore, why are instructors always requiring students bang the airplane on the ground at a give point, slam on the brakes hoping to come to a stop in 400ft, when the aircraft may need 900 feet to depart?

[Old Dog Flying]

High Flyin: You pose a good question, one that even the younger instructors could not answer and that is why the quality of training is getting so bad. I for one, along with ., CS, SSU and BPF and a few more long in the tooth instructors, would not advocate this type of abusive handling of an aircraft. The young ones don't care because they are not paying the maintenance bills.

Barney

[Cat Driver]

The young ones don't care because they are not paying the maintenance bills.

Its a new world Barney.

Wrecking airplanes due to poor training and thus no real idea of how to fly is covered in the post wrecking thought process.

It goes like this.

" Shit happens "........that covers incompetence.

If the people walk away......

" Good job ".

....that clears the deck for the next wreck.

[Colonel Sanders]

do not believe half of the crap in Plane and Pilot

Indeed. Please do not touch the flaps until after the
aircraft has landed.

Just learn to precisely control the speed.

[DonutHole]

For me that kind of thing I relate to learning to ride a high performane motorcycle. You do a few hard stops in case you need them but while you're operating the bike you do everything you can to avoid needing to use those techniques.

[Old Dog Flying]

Donuthole: That is only too true and the essence of a Superior Pilot..one who uses his superior knowledge so that he does not need to dig his way out of a crappy situation by using his superior skills..or something like that.

When you see a fairly new instructor standing outside the hangar smoking a bit of whacky tabacky before flying with a student you know where aviation is going.

[High Flyin]

The young ones don't care because they are not paying the maintenance bills.

Its a new world Barney.

Wrecking airplanes due to poor training and thus no real idea of how to fly is covered in the post wrecking thought process.

It goes like this.

" Shit happens "........that covers incompetence.

If the people walk away......

" Good job ".

....that clears the deck for the next wreck.

Well I've admited in the pass that I'm a new to the instructing world. ~100 hours dual given, a few recommends, I'd like to think I'm some form of proof there's young instructors who care .

[PilotDAR]

Flaps up in the flare? Very silly! There is no way that this will improve a landing consistently in a GA aircraft. Let alone, the very serious implications of errant selection of the wheels up in an RG. You simply should not be "inside" the aircraft during the flare.

If you doubt me, read the flight manual, does it suggest this? It is certain that instructors and contributors to piloting magazines do not know more about flying than the people who wrote the flight manual. Read it, and fly the way it says. That's what your aviation employer/Chief pilot will expect. If your training conflicts with the flight manual, you should immediately ask why.

The modulation of flaps is a known technique for float flying (and possibly in extreme, wheel or ski flying) but it is not a "normal" technique, and would best be reserved for pilots who are otherwise well experienced on type. If you need to use this technique on takeoff, you are operating at the verge of the limits of the aircraft.

I do agree that some flight manuals do say for the best short field performance in landing to retract the flaps upon touchdown. I did this on my multi ride in a 310R decades ago. I was severely "told" by the examiner. Even after I pointed out that the flight manual specified it, he said "not with me on board". He simply wanted to discourage changing configuration on the roll. In principle, I have to agree.

There was a rather famous accident with an Air Canada DC-8, I think in the '70's which involved errant deployment of spoilers while airborne just above the runway. It all turned out very badly for everyone aboard. The details are vague to me now, but the take away for me is to get the aircraft in the desired landing configuration, and leave it that way, until you're done flying.

[crazy_aviator]

DAR, I agree with what you say, mostly from a safety standpoint.More than a few times , ive seen heads spin and eyebrows curve when a SAFE maneuver was performed , but was outside the average pilots comfort level AND experience. What to do, do we LEGISLATE boredom and conformity ,,or is there still a little semblance of free society and FREEDOM to just go do it , be safe and have fun doing things that most think are foooooolish

[trey kule]

Silly is such a gentle word. Stupid. Maybe reckless. Idiots comes to mind.

I worked operationally for years doing what would be called extreme wheel flying. And taught the new pilots techniques. Never. Never would we be touching the flaps until the gear is on the ground.

These stupid ideas get into FTUs because pilots get a big thrill out of popping the flaps on at flying speed. It does not shorten the take off roll one inch. Just a big thrill with total disregard for any unplanned and unintended consequences.

" planting it on!" Hell, just pop the flaps off, pull the power to idle and pull back real hard on the yoke or stick...you will get the little rascal planted and stopped in a few feet....maybe a bit more if you count the depth of the hole in the ground.

When it comes to FTUs, where are the CFIs in all this. Don't any of them go out and spend a bit of time watching their students and instructors landing..or have staff meetings to discuss things like bare spots on the tires, or abnormal brake wear? I guess it is just easier to tell transient pilots not to do anything their students or instructors will try to mimic. In any event, as was mentioned by previous posters. Spend your time perfecting precision control, and do not be afraid to voice your concerns of any instructor inspired special techniques to the CFI of your school,

BTW. To the original poster. You got a generous and nice examiner. If that occurred when I was on board, it would have resulted in a meeting with the CFI and instructor involved, at the very least.

[trey kule]

Crazy...I hope that was tongue in cheek.

The problem is,particularly with young, stupid, and inexperienced, they find out that something they thought they could do safely was a bit misjudged, and results in people getting hurt or rose, and bent metal. You don't have to search far in the TSB reports to find examples.

Accidents happen. But before you try any " fun" stuff ask yourself how you will explain away your total lack of responsibility, and employer, student, pax trust if you have misjudged your upper cooper flying abilities just a bit.
As to legislating or regulating boredom. If you not get a thrill from seeing your students go from a bumbling fool who has trouble getting into the cockpit, to a competent pilot who can fly with precision, instructing is not for you. An instructor is there to teach the proper flying techniques, not do silly bugger things..and it is those types that typically are the worst at assessing their own competency..looking for thrills...not passing long wisdom to the students

[trey kule]

Deleted do to my total lack of understanding how fun is more important than proper teaching as an instructor

[crazy_aviator]

I am not speaking from an instructor standpoint , im speaking from the REAL WORLD standpoint wherin most aircraft can be safely operated with MODIFIED procedures for specific occasions by EXPERIENCED pilots to do a SPECIFIC task . Any Pilots who would refute that likely go to fish ponds and pay folks big dollars to throw a hook and line in the water to "catch" a fish,,, Talk about a DUMBED down "profession" that CANNOT think for itself !!

[crazy_aviator]

BTW, you wet behind the ears know-it-all "pilots" Some of us have been flying for longer than yall have lived, accident free, incident free, infraction free, flying appropriately within the planes and the pilots abilities !