Sunwing and the likes...

[notpaying]

Alright, so we all know what's going on with Sunwing and their foreign pilots. Good. Yet, I hae the impression that their spotlight is shadowing plenty of shady operators in Canada, who despite hiring "local" pilots, have these pilots pay to fly. I consider the problem to be coming from inside of Canada, because we have plenty of young men and women who are willing to pay just so as to boost that hour number. We also have a good number of companies who also feed out of the pockets of young aspiring pilots. I hereby invite you to EXPOSE these operators according to the folllowing criteria; so that we ALL know of their practices....

.

- Asking a potential candidate and stating during the interview that she or he will have to fund their own line check (money up front)
- buy a type rating in order to get the job
- work for free with the promise of a salary or working visa

[CpnCrunch]

Sunwing don't have a good reputation in general...cheapest of the cheap and non-existent customer service.

[YYCcrew]

Sunwing don't have a good reputation in general...cheapest of the cheap and non-existent customer service.

+1

[trey kule]

The Sunwing issue is very different than the pilot whores who will do whatever
It takes to get logbook time.,,,,because, of course, :50 people with the same lack of morals are lined up behind them.

The solution is for reputable companies to simply black list them, but history tells me that is not going to happen.

Hours in the logbook should not, and in many cases, is not a criteria for hiring. The pilot that will whore themselves out will eventually find. Some roadblock. Good companies know this. And you are not going to get the sleaze balls on net.

[teh1pilot]

I worked for a company as an instructor who asked me to do checkouts on their planes and Group 1 IFR renewed at my own expense as a term of continued employment. All this despite never hearing a word of the requirements until after I had accepted the job. Needless to say that didn't last very long and moved on to something a bit better.

[notpaying]

So let's man up and expose them. Weren't there a few fire patrolling companies up in the Province of Quebec? How about the Toronto Skydiving center. The debate here is not about Sunwing. I want to create a list, sort of a sticky whore advisory so that those going to work for those companies and reading avcanada BE ADVISED that the EASY WAY INTO aviation ain't always the best...

[ReserveTank]

...pilot whores who will do whatever
It takes to get logbook time.,,,,because, of course, :50 people with the same lack of morals are lined up behind them.

These are often the same pilots who expect people to care when they finally make it onto big metal and their working conditions get degraded (foreign pilots, loss of benefits, etc.)
Me, I don't care. I say you earned those conditions. When the flight school had you fly broken airplanes for $11,000/yr , you said nothing about conditions because you wanted hours to fly charter. When you descended below minimums for the 300th time for a charter operator, you kept sucking it in because you needed hours to go to a crappy turboprop airline somewhere in the north. When you were asked to fudge your duty times at your crappy turboprop job, you said OK because you wanted a good reference to go big iron. You never gave a second thought that someone working alongside you might actually want to make a decent living (career even) as an instructor, charter pilot, or even a turboprop airline pilot. But you helped make that impossible, facilitating the aviation industry's race to the bottom.
I say welcome aboard to our new imports. Maybe this will show you that EVERY job you do in this business needs to be done with pride and care. A little unity and decency right from the first job wouldn't hurt.

[unregistered]

[Wolfhunter]

ReserveTank. You nailed it.... agree 100%

[rob-air]

To add to what RT said. Which by the way i think is full of sense except THE LAST sentence, because most euros get it pretty bad. Like paying for being in the right seat of low costs airline revenue flight and that is their first job so there goes the decency.
The funny thing is that usually it is the ones higher up in the aviation ladder that hit on the guys under for accepting abuse. For example, the big iron guys say that the turboprop guy are underselling themselves. The turbo prop guys say that the 702-703 guys ar getting abused and so on all the way down to the freshly new CPL. They other way around would be pretty weird. How could a lower class flight instructor be going around saying that some pilots flying for some company are ''whores"for accepting low salaries, when he is probably making less than minimum wage. I guess my point is that its pretty easy to blame others when you have good employment. But imagine being the low time guy trying to move up while keeping its integrity, refusing to undersell himself or pay bonds and accepting other degrading things operator do to pilots. In some cases its bite the bullet or get an other career. Food for thoughts.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

...pilot whores who will do whatever
It takes to get logbook time.,,,,because, of course, :50 people with the same lack of morals are lined up behind them.

These are often the same pilots who expect people to care when they finally make it onto big metal and their working conditions get degraded (foreign pilots, loss of benefits, etc.)
Me, I don't care. I say you earned those conditions. When the flight school had you fly broken airplanes for $11,000/yr , you said nothing about conditions because you wanted hours to fly charter. When you descended below minimums for the 300th time for a charter operator, you kept sucking it in because you needed hours to go to a crappy turboprop airline somewhere in the north. When you were asked to fudge your duty times at your crappy turboprop job, you said OK because you wanted a good reference to go big iron. You never gave a second thought that someone working alongside you might actually want to make a decent living (career even) as an instructor, charter pilot, or even a turboprop airline pilot. But you helped make that impossible, facilitating the aviation industry's race to the bottom.
I say welcome aboard to our new imports. Maybe this will show you that EVERY job you do in this business needs to be done with pride and care. A little unity and decency right from the first job wouldn't hurt.

I fail to understand how you transitioned from your statement to the "Welcome to the new imports" part.
The guy who doesn't get the 737 job because a foreigner got it instead, stays in the turbo-prob up north job, which makes the charter guy stay in his charter job, which makes the instructor stay in his instructor job, which make the new guy fresh out of flight school stay un-employed.

350 foreign pilots flying large jets in Canada in a year affects everyone. I am not trying to make other pilots feel concerned. They are concerned.

In 2012 alone: Sunwing wet-leased 7 foreign aircraft (about 100 foreign pilots), imported another 96 through "reciprocity" and obtained LMOs for another 119, while Canjet got LMOs for another 32.

That adds up to 347 foreign pilots that flew as Captains of F/O on 737s and 767s for Canadian companies. How is that right and how can they be welcome ?

[BeechjetYKZ]

...pilot whores who will do whatever
It takes to get logbook time.,,,,because, of course, :50 people with the same lack of morals are lined up behind them.

These are often the same pilots who expect people to care when they finally make it onto big metal and their working conditions get degraded (foreign pilots, loss of benefits, etc.)
Me, I don't care. I say you earned those conditions. When the flight school had you fly broken airplanes for $11,000/yr , you said nothing about conditions because you wanted hours to fly charter. When you descended below minimums for the 300th time for a charter operator, you kept sucking it in because you needed hours to go to a crappy turboprop airline somewhere in the north. When you were asked to fudge your duty times at your crappy turboprop job, you said OK because you wanted a good reference to go big iron. You never gave a second thought that someone working alongside you might actually want to make a decent living (career even) as an instructor, charter pilot, or even a turboprop airline pilot. But you helped make that impossible, facilitating the aviation industry's race to the bottom.
I say welcome aboard to our new imports. Maybe this will show you that EVERY job you do in this business needs to be done with pride and care. A little unity and decency right from the first job wouldn't hurt.

I fail to understand how you transitioned from your statement to the "Welcome to the new imports" part.
The guy who doesn't get the 737 job because a foreigner got it instead, stays in the turbo-prob up north job, which makes the charter guy stay in his charter job, which makes the instructor stay in his instructor job, which make the new guy fresh out of flight school stay un-employed.

350 foreign pilots flying large jets in Canada in a year affects everyone. I am not trying to make other pilots feel concerned. They are concerned.

In 2012 alone: Sunwing wet-leased 7 foreign aircraft (about 100 foreign pilots), imported another 96 through "reciprocity" and obtained LMOs for another 119, while Canjet got LMOs for another 32.

That adds up to 347 foreign pilots that flew as Captains of F/O on 737s and 767s for Canadian companies. How is that right and how can they be welcome ?

Gilles, you need to get your facts straight about what a wet-lease and dry-lease is. A wet-lease means the pilots are included and a dry-lease means the plane can be flown by any pilot who works for the company who has leased the plane. Wet-leases can only be flown by specific foreign pilots (who technically operate them under the foreign register/the foreign airline's SOPs). In regards to 737s, Sunwing had one wet-lease in 2011-2012 and 4 in 2012-2013. Think of a wet-lease as a stretch limo with chauffeur and a dry-lease like a rental minivan. There is no way a Canadian could fly a wet-leased plane, just like you cannot rent a stretch limo and drive it yourself. A wet-leased plane takes away as many jobs from Canadians as 1 less aircraft operating for Sunwing would. Wet-leases cannot be flown by Canadian pilots.

The 767s operated by Sunwing could not possibly have ever been operated by Canadians because Sunwing is not able to dry-lease 767s. Nobody they do business with has them available for leasing in the summer.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

It depends on how you consider your year.

One 737-800 was wet-leased from Travel Service from Feb 1 2012 to late May.
Two 767 were wet-leased by Sunwing during the summer of 2012.
Then four more 737-800 were wet-leased from Travel Service, arriving between Oct 12th and December 9th 2012.

That is 7 wet-leases that arrived during the course of the 2012 calendar year.

Now tell me what the difference is between these two scenarios:

1) On one contract, Sunwing Wet-Leases four B-737s from Travel Service, aircraft that come with pilots.

2) On a second contract, Sunwing dry-leases 6 B-737-800 from the same Travel Service (aircraft without pilots).
3) On a third contract, linked to contract number 2, Sunwing secures the use of sufficient pilots from Travel Service to come fly the aircraft leased under contract #2.

The FAA does not allow one company to "dry-lease" an aircraft at one source, then, in a contract which is linked and conditional to the aircraft contract, enter into a second contract with the same company that supplied the aircraft, to rent pilots to fly the aircraft sourced in contact number 1.

The FAA has a name for this, it is called a sham dry-lease, and it is illegal. TCCA seems to have no problems whatsoever with this practice.

So not not only did Sunwing do "sham dry leases" with Travel Service, it also wet-leased four additional aircraft at the same time with the same company. So there are two sets of Travel Service pilots in Canada. The wet-lease pilots and the dry-lease pilots.

Why not all dry-lease ? Why not all wet-leases ? Why a combination of both ?

Does it perhaps have anything to do with total hours flown in a year by the pilots? The truth will eventually surface.

[trey kule]

Why is the focus on Sunwing? Are they the only company in Canada doing this?
Or are they just way worse because they do it more? Reminds me of a contract killer who claims he is not as bad as the guy who killed 20 people because he only killed five.
Sunwing, I believe had a long term business plan. Maybe because they did not have a provincial govt championing them, they actually needed and wanted to make money. Who knows?
And it seems they are working to plan. Less foreign pilots are brought in each year now as a percentage. Although there might be the odd person out there who will claim they forced this change, it was, and is no more than part of what appears to be a successful business model. The attempt by (maybe ?)well meaning people to attempt to curtail this is cutting off their nose to spite their face.as Sunwings grows more Canadian pilots will have a career...with a profitable company
Sunwing is providing more jobs every year for Canadian pilots. And they are profitable. Nice to work for a company that makes a profit.(did I mention that before?)
Compare that to a company that, instead of working to become profitable, simply provides some benefits to an employee or two to attack the competition.But, of course, that is not the case here on AvCanada. We are all only concerned about the greater good for our fellow pilots.

So how about it. Lets hear a bit about the career killers of just five people, not just the career killer of 20! The title thread mentions...."and the likes." Maybe Sunwing needs an employee to lobby for them like some other companies.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Why is the focus on Sunwing? Are they the only company in Canada doing this? .

Yes! Do you know of any other company that dry-leases aircraft from overseas and in separate but linked contracts with the suppliers of the aircraft, enter contracts to hire the pilots to fly the leased aircraft ?

I don't. Even Canjet does not do that, for they hire their foreign pilots from a pilot contracting company which is in no way related to the suppliers of the dry-leased aircraft.

Maybe because they did not have a provincial govt championing them, they actually needed and wanted to make money. Who knows?

You have any facts to back that up ? I thought so.

Less foreign pilots are brought in each year now as a percentage.

False.
In 2011/2012 140 Canadians, 210 foreigners
In 2012-2013, 170 Canadians, 350 foreigners

Although there might be the odd person out there who will claim they forced this change, it was, and is no more than part of what appears to be a successful business model.

No odd person out there can claim to have forced a change for there has been no change. It keeps getting worse and there has been no improvement. Sunwing is hiring but this is in no way an indication of them hiring less foreigners, quite the contrary, 2013/2014 is to be a record year.......

The attempt by (maybe ?)well meaning people to attempt to curtail this is cutting off their nose to spite their faces

Like the Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) ? Their words, not mine.

“The Temporary Foreign Worker Program cannot and should not be used by airlines as an ongoing subsidy from government used to gain a commercial advantage over their competitors through the avoidance of training costs. These operators must be required to make more extensive efforts to hire Canadians before they bring in foreign-licensed pilots.

“It is essential that Canadian companies be required to invest more in the skills and training of Canadian pilots. Type-rating training costs should not be used as an excuse to exclude otherwise qualified Canadian pilots. Air Canada constantly invests in the skills of its pilots as they advance through their careers and operate increasingly larger and more complex aircraft. This investment not only creates a talented professional workforce able to meet the challenge of global competition, but also make our airline one of the safest operations in the world.”

[photofly]

Re: fake wet leases

TCCA seems to have no problems whatsoever with this practice.

actually it does, sometimes. Do you want a reference to a tribunal case on the matter?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Re: fake wet leases

TCCA seems to have no problems whatsoever with this practice.

actually it does, sometimes. Do you want a reference to a tribunal case on the matter?

I would love that

[photofly]

I just re-read the case I had in mind; unfortunately it hinges more on who has responsibility for the maintenance, than who supplied the pilot, so it's not perhaps very useful:
http://www.tatc.gc.ca/decision/decision ... dc_id=1358

[notpaying]

I see that the conversation is going exactly the other way I wanted it to go initially. However, we've achieved to expose Sunwing so far and their practices (nothing new) yet still a very important issue.

Coming back to the initial posting:

Companies needing exposure:

Sunwing (non-Canadian pilots)
Exact Air (got this from a french friend of mine - require their pilots to pay for their 182RG check 2.5-4K)
Toronto Skydiving center (requires their pilots to fly for free under an internship shadow or something of the sort...

I CHALLENGE YOU TO ADD MORE

[Wolfhunter]

BeechjetYKZ - I can't wait to hear a few more "straight facts"...

[Doc]

Sunwing don't have a good reputation in general...cheapest of the cheap and non-existent customer service.

While I refuse to/can't comment on their reputation in general, I've found their inflight and ground based customer service to be on par and even better than some "regular" Canadian passenger airlines. Crews are always up beat (Air Canada, pay attention here. Have your flight attendants leave their attitudes and brooms they rode in on at home) friendly and courteous.
They don't really want old dogs like me, but how many of you, who are "realistically" qualified have gotten off your asses and applied?

[Doc]

Exact Air (got this from a french friend of mine - require their pilots to pay for their 182RG check 2.5-4K)

ANYBODY willing to pay 2.2-4K for a check out in a 182RG is a FU8KING MORON!!!!! MORON MORON MORON! Are you people really that stupid??? AW, did I insult you? MORON MORON MORON!!!!
FOOL
TWIT

Hey, if the shoe fits....it's YOURS

[whipline]

WTF does Sunwing have to do with this thread? It's one of the best aviation jobs in Canada. Your comparing it to a skydiving school? Jesus

[ea306]

I have to agree Whipline. I can't think of too many jobs here in Canada where as an everyday line pilot with some seniority where you can make six figures twice over and then some with a bit of overtime. There are a few...but not many.

[cpt.sam]

Honest question here, please don't attack me for being ignorant to the fact....
How is it that there are a cornucopia of typed European dudes ready to go, and such a lack of us here at home?
Naturally the turn-over on typed drivers across the pond can't be so high that there are numerous busloads of dudes soaking up all the jobs???
Do these guys "buy" they're own PPC at a sim, or are they displaced from failed carriers?
Not that I think it is OK or JUST, but I'm sure there are Canadian drivers with pockets deep enough to go get a 737NG PPC. Does this happen?