How do you keep your IFR current?

[kmf.kenif]

CAR401.05(3) No holder of an instrument rating shall exercise the privileges referred to in Section 401.47 unless the holder has

(a) within the 12 months preceding the flight, successfully completed an instrument rating flight test in an aircraft or in a Level B, C or D simulator of the same group as the aircraft;

(b) within the six months preceding the flight, acquired six hours of instrument time and completed six instrument approaches to the minima specified in the Canada Air Pilot in an aircraft, in actual or simulated instrument meteorological conditions, or in a Level B, C or D simulator of the same category as the aircraft or in a flight training device under the supervision of a person who holds the qualifications referred to in subsection 425.21(9) of the Personnel Licensing and Training Standards respecting Flight Training;

(c) within the six months preceding the flight, acquired six hours of instrument time and completed six instrument approaches to the minima specified in the Canada Air Pilot in an aircraft, in actual or simulated instrument meteorological conditions, while acting as a flight instructor conducting training in respect of the endorsement of a flight crew licence or permit with an instrument rating; or

(d) successfully completed, for an aircraft, a pilot proficiency check whose validity period has not expired and which included the instrument procedures portion of

Hi Avcan,

I am a flight instructor at a medium sized FTU where majority of the training is VFR (ill equipped IFR equipment and no MIFR program). More recently I've acquired my MIFR ticket and have been teaching in our simulator (Level 2 PFD Sim - Configured as a Seneca) with my CPL candidates. I don't mind teaching it to keep myself sharp but that does not qualify for the recency requirements. And now I'm wondering if there are others out there with the same situation as me, how have you kept your currency? Rent an IFR machine (single) from time to time and file IFR in VFR? What's your cost efficient method of keeping current?

Thanks for all your response.

[AOW]

Are you asking how to keep your IFR legal, or how to remain proficient in IFR flying--two very different beasts.

As you quoted from the CARs, once you pass your IFR flight test, you are current (legally) for the next 12 months. After that point you have to be able to look back within the last 6 months, and have completed 6 hours of IFR flying, including at least 6 approaches to minima, under actual or simulated IMC. This can be done in a plane or level B C or D sim.

So to do the minimum legal requirement, you could do your IFR flight test in January 2013, then wait until January 2014, and do 6 hours and 6 approaches. Then in July 2014, do another 6 hours and 6 approaches, and then in January 2015 do another IFR flight test. This may be the most cost effective option if your FTU's sim meets the requirements and you get a good employee discount, and have another instructor looking to do the same thing that can run the sim for you.

If that is not an option, the most cost effective method may be to just do an IFR flight test every 13 months, and never worry about the 6/6/6 rule.

That will keep you legal; to keep good, that takes regular practice, discipline, and time.

Good luck!

[ahramin]

Rent an IFR machine (single) from time to time and file IFR in VFR?

How about rent an IFR machine and fly IFR in IFR. Wouldn't be money wasted.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Level A,B,C,D Sims do not exist anymore. Instead Sims are classified on a scale of 1 to 10. AFAIK any sim that has a TC approval number, that is it is approved for instrument training towards a license or rating can be used to maintain currency. So if your sim is approved than you can do your 6 hours and six approaches on it. The only proviso is that it has to be dual time, that is it is done under the supervision of a suitable qualified instructor. This interpretation came from a Fed so I am reasonably confident it is valid.

I guess the bigger question is whether there is any reason to maintain currency if you are not going to use it. If you get hired to fly an IFR twin you will get your instrument rating revalidated as part of the initial PPC flight test.

[Krimson]

Level A,B,C,D Sims do not exist anymore. Instead Sims are classified on a scale of 1 to 10.

When did this happen?

Flight Training Devices are numbered in Levels 1-10
(Motion) Simulators are labeled A-D.

[kmf.kenif]

Are you asking how to keep your IFR legal, or how to remain proficient in IFR flying--two very different beasts.

AOW trying to get the best of the both.
Thanks for everyone's response.

Several more things I'd like to clarify.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

401.05(3)(b) within the six months preceding the flight, acquired six hours of instrument time and completed six instrument approaches to the minima specified in the Canada Air Pilot in an aircraft, in actual or simulated instrument meteorological conditions, or in a Level B, C or D simulator of the same category as the aircraft or in a flight training device under the supervision of a person who holds the qualifications referred to in subsection 425.21(9) of the Personnel Licensing and Training Standards respecting Flight Training

Scenario: You're a fair weather private pilot who owns a single and you exercise your privilege as a IFR holder in VMC (you like the added safety of being under IFR carrying your family around). You do a total of 100 hours a year, all under IFR in VMC weather. You wouldn't necessarily have "six hours of instrument time" because you're neither flying under the hood or flying in IMC. Your 12 months have come up since your initial ride, to stay current you'll have to do 6 hours with a flight instructor under the hood? This seems absurd to me because technically you're current because you've supposedly operated under IFR, how are you not current?

401.04(3)(c) within the six months preceding the flight, acquired six hours of instrument time and completed six instrument approaches to the minima specified in the Canada Air Pilot in an aircraft, in actual or simulated instrument meteorological conditions, while acting as a flight instructor conducting training in respect of the endorsement of a flight crew licence or permit with an instrument rating

Scenario: You're a Flight Instructor and you provide ab-initio training for PPL and CPL Candidate - "conducting training in respect of the endorsement of a flight crew license or permit with an instrument rating." You do Exercise 24 - Instrument Flying (even if its basic maneuvering), it'll still count towards your own currency for the 6 hours of instrument time within the 6 months? Then should you be logging the instrument hood time you're doing with your students? It'll look funny in your logbook because you're suppose to visual for traffic separation and terrain etc...

Thanks for the response.

[photofly]

You're a fair weather private pilot who owns a single and you exercise your privilege as a IFR holder in VMC (you like the added safety of being under IFR carrying your family around).

In that case I'd want to discuss with you the error of thinking that you're safer flying under IFR in VMC than VFR.

Your 12 months have come up since your initial ride, to stay current you'll have to do 6 hours with a flight instructor under the hood?

No - you'd need to do 6 hours in real IMC and six approaches to minimums, all the way down, in IMC - just before the 12 months is up, or under the hood with a safety observer either before or after 12 months has passed. No need for an instructor to be present either way.

This seems absurd to me because technically you're current because you've supposedly operated under IFR, how are you not current?

How are you not current? Because currency isn't determined by whether you've operated under IFR - it's determined by whether you've flown six hours and six approaches to minimums, "in actual or simulated IMC". The set of flight rules under which you did that is irrelevant.

[ahramin]

As photofly said:

1. In good VMC you aren't safer IFR.

2. No instructor needed. Any safety pilot will do. You only need an instructor when it's in a sim.

But as for 3, you're right. It makes no sense that you can sit in the right seat VMC and have someone else fly under a hood and that keeps you current. The rules were intended to cover instructors who aren't flying themselves but are still current by instructing IFR in IMC, but that's not the way it's written. You don't log it as hood time, you log it as IFR instruction time, and even though it makes no sense, it keeps you legally current.

[kmf.kenif]

Thanks photofly and ahramin; and I take my word back with the IFR in VMC thing. It was just a thought that a private guy would be pretty solid with his/her procedures if they use it all the time flying. And I did not mean it literally that they are "current", and thanks for the reminder about the safety pilot/qualified person. My next question is probably a no brainer, the safety pilot will act as PIC when the owner is under the hood for his own plane? And this safety pilot can be a fresh PPL holder because he/she is able to fly this single engine/non-high performance aircraft?

But as for 3, you're right. It makes no sense that you can sit in the right seat VMC and have someone else fly under a hood and that keeps you current. The rules were intended to cover instructors who aren't flying themselves but are still current by instructing IFR in IMC, but that's not the way it's written. You don't log it as hood time, you log it as IFR instruction time, and even though it makes no sense, it keeps you legally current.

Would you go about logging this in your books on it's own separate column as "IFR Instructional time"?

[photofly]

My next question is probably a no brainer, the safety pilot will act as PIC when the owner is under the hood for his own plane? And this safety pilot can be a fresh PPL holder because he/she is able to fly this single engine/non-high performance aircraft?

The safety pilot isn't usually PIC; and it doesn't (as far as I know) have to be a qualified pilot at all. They don't have any formal responsibility - that is, if they screw up it's your fault as you're PIC.

If the safety person is an instructor then they can log PIC and you can log dual. If they're not an instructor and they're PIC then you can't log anything at all and your hood time doesn't count.

By the way, just because you aren't any safer flying IFR in VMC doesn't mean it isn't worth doing; it's a good way to get used to IFR procedures, so that when you are in IMC it's more familiar.

[photofly]

The rules were intended to cover instructors who aren't flying themselves but are still current by instructing IFR in IMC, but that's not the way it's written.

When I looked at it, it was somewhat ambiguously worded.

[ahramin]

The rules were intended to cover instructors who aren't flying themselves but are still current by instructing IFR in IMC, but that's not the way it's written.

When I looked at it, it was somewhat ambiguously worded.

Exactly, but what do you think the intent was?

[ahramin]

Kenif, I honestly wouldn't bother logging it separately at all. I would make it possible for you to somehow figure out whether a given flight counted towards currency or not, perhaps a comment in the remarks column. It's extremely unlikely that anyone is ever going to check if you were current for any particular flight, so it isn't really worth the effort of keeping another column in your logbook and totalling the time every page. Personally I never logged either instructor time or IFR instructor time, but if anyone ever wanted me to prove I was current I could have gone through and found the flights that fit the description and totalled them up.

[Rookie50]

As photofly said:

1. In good VMC you aren't safer

Stumbled on this thread while rechecking the currency. I can think of one example to the above quote, and that's cross border. With last minute TFR's popping up, I believe under Ifr Atc has a duty to route you around any that popped up on your filed route. Certainly if one busted a TFR, especially a short notice one, there would be a strong case under IFR the controller is responsible.

VFR, even under flight following , there is no duty for a controller to assist you. It's on a best efforts basis, they could always say they were too busy.

The other reason cross border, is often vfr flight plans do not survive a border crossing, and that is a cars violation -- the pic is responsible.

[photofly]

Procedural sh*t isn't about safety.

But, to address the points:

NORDO flight in the US is just as acceptable as it is here. You don't get busted for violating a TFR that you couldn't have known about because it popped up after you launched, and there's precedent for that. Just make sure you're on tape calling FS and asking before you go.

And crossing the border, nobody is sitting there at ATC asking if you have a flight plan. You filed one, you're on tape with FIC having filed one, that's good enough. If they lost it, how would you even know?

[Rookie50]

Personally, I would'nt want to go through that. You are presumed to have screwed up if you bust a TFR. Ignorance is not considered a defense. You want to fight that one, have a good time. The first reaction isn't going to be "it's cool, you got an FSS briefing, my mistake."

VFR flight plans crossing the border back into Canada, are dropped all the time. You opened it in the US, not in Canada. Then you are cross border without a flight plan. It's up to you to either file IFR, or reopen the flight plan by air with FSS once you cross the border. Again, its the pilots responsibility.

In either circumstance you can do VFR of course, but better be rechecking about TFR's on route and ensuring flight plan open.

[photofly]

Find me a single action against a pilot who got a TFR briefing before takeoff and was later busted.

http://www.hahnlawfirm.com/NTSB_REQUIRE ... N_TFRS.htm

Nor have I ever knowingly had one of dozens of cross-border VFR flight plans "dropped". In fact, how would I even know? Ever heard "border crossing denied, because you're not on a flight plan"? I didn't think so.

[trey kule]

Well, photo, I can speak from personal experience, that X border flights get " dropped". And during the investigation that followed (I was cleared, as I did file), the guy at TC told me it is rather a common experience. Flight plans are not always automatically opened by FSS in the US. I am sure if we have any FSS types from Whitehorse here they can give you some numbers.
The problem is that the US has a different way of opening flight plans, so advising ground control or the tower that you are going to Canada on a flight plan, does not necessarily open your flight plan.
Anyone going xBorder should become familiar with how US flight plans are opened.

Now back to the thread topic

[photofly]

TK, thanks for the info.

I was cleared, as I did file

Which kind of makes the point. But on the thread topic, this is all just bonkers. Is anyone really suggesting that the best solution to lost flight plans and insane paranoia about pop-up TFRs is to file IFR? In both cases just get on the VHF with flight services.

[trey kule]

Somebody mentioned correctly that VFR flight following is not guaranteed. And it is dropped at the worst times.
If you get a solid briefing in the US AND file Ifr, there is a increase in pop up TFT recognition, though I really dont think it is quite the problem people here are making it out to be.

Anyway, the thread is about IFR currency.

[photofly]

Somebody mentioned correctly that VFR flight following is not guaranteed.

Right. But if you're worried about TFR's, I'm not advocating flight following. I'm advocating periodically calling Flight Services (not ATC) on the VHF and asking them specifically if there are any new TFRs since your pre-flight briefing.

[Colonel Sanders]

X border flights get " dropped"

Happens to me, all the time, VFR. I can't count the
number of times I have landed in Canada and asked
the tower to close my flight plan, and the tower says,
"What flight plan?"

However, when they come after you for not having
a flight plan, do remember that all phone calls to
800 WX BRIEF (Lockheed-Martin contract FSS) are
recorded.

As mentioned above, you MUST ask the tower at
the USA airport to open your flight plan - they will
NOT do it automatically for you.

If you are departing an uncontrolled airport VFR in
the USA, what I do (and did last night) was to ask
for auto-open at the proposed time. You can do
that in both the USA and Canada, even if they don't
like it very much.

Be sure that your VFR flight plan gets opened! If
FSS is busy, it may be impossible for you to open
it after you take off.

N.B. A very big difference between Canada and the
USA. In Canada, if you file a flight plan and don't
open it, they go nuts and assume that you crashed
on departure and are currently burning up in a huge
greasy orange ball of fire off the end of the runway.
In the USA, you can file a million flight plans if you
want, and if they are not opened, they just expire
out of the system.

Given all the clusterf__k nonsense and traps involved
in filing cross-border VFR flight plans, I can see why
people would just file IFR to shut down the attacks
from the paperpushers that you "didn't have a flight plan".
Because if you came across the border on a clearance,
you sure as f__k had a flight plan

Crossing the border has become such a giant paperwork
headache. EAPIS, anyone? Not to mention actually
arranging customs, and the different rules that each
customs agency has.

Hey, and what about those VFR squawk codes? From
whom? And in which direction?

No wonder 99% of light plane pilots don't cross the
border - the paperpushers have made it so difficult,
you have to be some kind of frikken supersonic jet
pilot to know how to do it. Most light plane pilots
have been defeated by the paperpushers, and have
just given up trying to cross the border.

[photofly]

If you are departing an uncontrolled airport VFR in
the USA, what I do (and did last night) was to ask
for auto-open at the proposed time. You can do
that in both the USA and Canada, even if they don't
like it very much.

+1

If you want magic words to use in the USA, I believe they are "ASSUME DEPARTURE AT" plus the time.

[Rookie50]

Find me a single action against a pilot who got a TFR briefing before takeoff and was later busted.

http://www.hahnlawfirm.com/NTSB_REQUIRE ... N_TFRS.htm

Nor have I ever knowingly had one of dozens of cross-border VFR flight plans "dropped". In fact, how would I even know? Ever heard "border crossing denied, because you're not on a flight plan"? I didn't think so.

I see. Only everyone Else has had their's dropped. As for the above; did you even read it?

That TFR violation was like 2 months after 9/11, when there were tons of them , by a STUDENT pilot. Might be a little understanding. You think a decade later, they would treat a CPL or ATP the same way when there was no recording? "Just trust me officer -- I checked and no one told me about that one" Good luck with that. Try it and let us know how it works out for you. Sure if its recorded -- you'll escape -- I guarantee it won't be pleasant.

Personally; I'll be "paranoid" or whatever, if I have somewhere to go I'll file IFR

[photofly]

Maybe it's a small point. But I think VFR flight without a radio is a liberty permitted in the US by the regulations. I don't like to see other rules that encroach on that make normative a decision not to file and fly VFR. I think it would be sad if paranoia drove all pilots to give up a measure of freedom in the skies because they were scared of illegitimate enforcement action. So I'll take the tiny chance of over-zealous enforcement against the risk of having VFR flight - without being in constant contact - quietly dropped from the rule book. If you or anyone else faces the same decision and comes to the opposite conclusion I can't blame you.

Do you remember the recent case of the guy who was flying a glider over a nuclear power plant in the US and various local law enforcement personel behaved in a total egregious and disgusting manner by "forcing" him to land and throwing him in a cell over night? Would the treatment he recieved stop me from flying a sail-plane over a nuclear power plant - totally lawfully - in the same circumstances? No.


Secondly, I don't really see enforcement action as a safety issue. Filing IFR might reduce the risk of enforcement from busting a TFR, but it increases the risk of enforcement from busting a clearance - a risk that's completely absent flying VFR. What you gain with one hand, you lose with the other.